Hello everyone, I don't know Doc, at least I'm not sure. Many of us have never met others in person. I have however met Sellam, and I've corresponded with him many time over the years. Sellam, you've always been very nice and professional to me online and also when we met at the First East Coast Vintage Computer Festival. But, I feel a need to say that your language and personal attacks to people on list has really gotten out of hand. Doc, you did yourself no favors the moment you also used the "F" word in response. There have of course, also been some others here exhibiting bad language, etc., in the past. For anyone who doesn't know, when someone attacks a person personally, instead of attacking their viewpoint, this is called an Ad Hominem attack - ad hom?i?nem adj. Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives. Whether you are attacking their race, place of birth, religion, sex, or yes, even choice of ISP. If everyone will excuse me a moment, my politics are simple on social behavior - I don't care what any consenting adults do in private, but keep it private. You can engage in gay or "normal" sex, do drugs, curse your head off, who cares. Keep it private and between adults only. This forum is public, and there are probably some minors who subscribe or peruse the archives later. You have a social responsibility to keep any and all antisocial, uncivil behavior off-line. All of this out-of-line behavior that has been allowed to carry on this list is out of control regularly now. I voted for and overall like President Bush. Sellam, Doc . . . oh, am I a big jerk or stupid now?! But of course, this has nothing to do with our hobby and needn't ever have been revealed here. It's immature and frankly unrealistic to think that your little "swipe" or "joke" in regard to politics is amusing to everyone. Or, even that it impresses anyone. None of us are here to listen to anyone's political agenda. Or their viewpoint on business ethics and copyright law, etc. Unless these concepts are discussed in regard to a historical, classic computer system(s) or related. Is anyone in charge here? Is there any policing of list etiquette? Even just internal by other members? Are there more of you out there like me? Is everyone happy with this stuff?! I'm very tired of it. I may not "discuss" much on here, but I read every one and I'm just as much a "member" here. Can we please have discussion on topic, and behavior that does not insult or offend anyone?! It's really not that hard, it just takes some discipline. Simply treat any other person the way you want to be treated - with respect I imagine. There, I finally did it, posted for all to see. This is ridiculous the behavior that goes on here. Civil behavior is all that we have to keep the foundation of our culture "civilized." All the other stuff becomes secondary. Regards to everyone on list, David David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay