13 Feb
2013
13 Feb
'13
7:28 p.m.
Despite my illiteracy I was SIMPLY STATING that I've readily worked with quads w/o
having to fiddle with anything.
What are we supposed to call them if not quads??? Clearly it's not about density
when even I stated DD disks seem to always work. It's about a format that is unusual
yet common enough to warrant a separate designation.
------------------------------
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 3:49 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, C:\Derp wrote:
I've readily created and reproduced images of
Tandy 2000 720k 5 1/4"
floppies with run of the mill 1.2 Meg drives. All kinds.Imagedisk,
Teledisk wotevuh. In early pentiums and whatnot. Didn't tamper with
jumpers nor data rates. And I do seem to recall W2K server straitaway
raeding quads in 1.2 drives. Again w/no tampering or fenagling anything.
Not even a pretty please.
Don't listen to the Fredster. Quads are alive and well and are the de
facto Uber Density.
For those who are literate, I clearly stated that MOST "1.2M" drives can
do "720K" formats, once the drive select and cabling issues of
installation are done, and after somebody COMPETENT writes software that
switches speed or data transfer rate to the correct values (which they
will often DEFAULT to, and prevents software from double-stepping.
Any problems that occur are installation issues, and/or the result of
running software that does stuff that you do not want.
However, calling them "quad" is a completely clear determination of
incompetence.
There are no "FREDSTER"s here.
13 Feb
13 Feb
8:57 p.m.
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote:
Despite my illiteracy I was SIMPLY STATING that
I've readily worked
with quads w/o having to fiddle with anything.
What are we supposed to call them if not quads??? Clearly it's not
about density when even I stated DD disks seem to always work. It's
about a format that is unusual yet common enough to warrant a separate
designation.
The reason why DD disks work is because it IS DD!
"quad" is exactly the same on each track as DD,
just putting another identical track in between
each of the existing tracks.
Although rare, some people HAVE had difficulties using some
DD disks with "quad"! Although they usually work, and OUGHT
TO work, they aren't tested for putting those extra tracks on them.
Nevertheless, you have a Good point!
There IS NO correct name!
There IS NO correct name!
There IS NO correct name!
1) "Industry standard 5.25" 96 track per inch using MFM, at
300RPM with a 250K data transfer rate, or at 360RPM with a
300K data transfer rate" is correct, but more than a little
too unwieldy.
"Type 2" is ridiculous IBM/Microsoft specific and arbitrary.
likewise, type 0, type 1, type 7
How many people (besides Chuck) know the type number
(used in DRIVER.SYS and DRIVPARM) for 2.8M, 8"SD, 8"DD disks?
(#9, #3, and #4. Now you know them, too)
"quad" is using words misdefined by marketing, and is
comparable to referring to CP/M, or other 16 bit memory bus,
as supporting 65.5K of RAM. Which the exact same marketing
people who created the name "quad" DID! It just screams
cluelessness to fall for and embrace that level of BS hype.
In term of ambiguity, "quad" also has to suffer the misdefinitions
perpetrated by Superbrain (Intertec) marketing, who called 40 track
DSDD "quad" simply because it was twice the capacity of their
40 track SSDD!
"5.25 720K" works as an unambiguous name, although people
with too many nits (google what THOSE are!) will point out
that it could easily be anywhere between 640K and 800K,
and in some weird cases, even higher or lower.
similarly, "360K", "1.2M", "1.4M" ARE recognized, even if
their
IBM/Microsoft origins are offensive.
Although some, such as NEC, did strange things!
They run their HD ("1.4M") 3.5" drives at 360RPM (instead of 300RPM),
so that they can get the same ~1.2M format structure on 8", 5.25",
and 3.5"!
Try reading a Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) with ANY other machine!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:13 p.m.
On 02/13/2013 05:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
The reason why DD disks work is because it IS DD!
"quad" is exactly the same on each track as DD,
just putting another identical track in between
each of the existing tracks.
An inspection of a random bunch of old floppies shows that labeling
varied between manufacturers such as "35/40 track vs. 70/80 track", "48
tpi vs. 96 tpi", etc. Oddly, manufacturers seemed to be silent on the
subject of 100 tpi drives, but 3M went to silly lengths, even specifying
the recording mode. For example, a 3M 744-0 floppy is labeled "48 TPI,
Double-sided, Single-density". (that particular sample has 100 tpi GCR
data on 77 tracks).
Although some, such as NEC, did strange things!
They run their HD ("1.4M") 3.5" drives at 360RPM (instead of 300RPM),
so that they can get the same ~1.2M format structure on 8", 5.25",
and 3.5"!
That makes perfect sense--it's the rest of the world that's strange.
There are high-density 5.25" drives made by Matsushita and a few others
that do not offer a low-density (250K) mode for use on the PC98 platform.
Some PC98 drive interfaces require "disk-changed", "ready", and
"in-use"
signals as well as drive select 0-3. It makes sense--the "in use"
allows software to determine if a drive is present, regardless of
whether or not it has a diskette inserted. "Ready" likewise makes
sense. It can be challenging finding replacement drives.
Try reading a Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) with ANY other
machine!
I can do it with my Catweasel-equipped machine.,,
--Chuck
14 Feb
14 Feb
12:09 a.m.
> Although some, such as NEC, did strange things!
> They run their HD ("1.4M") 3.5" drives at 360RPM (instead of
300RPM),
> so that they can get the same ~1.2M format structure on 8", 5.25",
> and 3.5"!
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
That makes perfect sense--it's the rest of the
world that's strange.
WHY did Shugart change the motor speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM?
There are high-density 5.25" drives made by
Matsushita and a few others
that do not offer a low-density (250K) mode for use on the PC98 platform.
The first "1.2M" drive that I got was Mitsubishi, and had a 50 pin
connector! I suspected that it was targeted at 8"
Only the very earliest of the 475 drives did not support "360K"
But, I am not familiar with the various sub-models, and what features
those added or lost.
Some PC98 drive interfaces require
"disk-changed", "ready", and "in-use"
signals as well as drive select 0-3. It makes sense--the "in use"
allows software to determine if a drive is present, regardless of
whether or not it has a diskette inserted. "Ready" likewise makes
sense. It can be challenging finding replacement drives.
Surely we don't really need 17 grounds, . . .
Try reading a
Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) with ANY other machine!
I can do it with my
Catweasel-equipped machine.,, 
7:11 a.m.
There are
high-density 5.25" drives made by Matsushita and a few others
that do not offer a low-density (250K) mode for use on the PC98 platform.
The first "1.2M" drive that I got was Mitsubishi, and had a 50 pin
connector! I suspected that it was targeted at 8" Some PC98
drive interfaces require "disk-changed", "ready", and
"in-use"
signals as well as drive select 0-3. It makes sense--the "in use"
allows software to determine if a drive is present, regardless of
whether or not it has a diskette inserted. "Ready" likewise makes
sense. It can be challenging finding replacement drives.
Surely we don't really need 17 grounds, . . .
--
Doug Jackson
VK1ZDJ
http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks
http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities
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