24 Jan
2004
24 Jan
'04
9:40 a.m.
I've *finally* gotten the network problems I've been fighting at home resolved.
It looks as if my Intel 10/100 24-port Switch has decided that it no longer wants anything
to do with 10Mbit <sigh>. Anyhow, I've moved my home network back to my old
8-port 10/100 hub and a 8-port 10Mbit hub, and everything is happy (thankfully the 24-port
is serious overkill at the moment).
As a result I now have managed to get the VT420 on the DECserver 90L+ to reliably talk to
my DEC PWS 433au, and my Ethertalk-to-Localtalk converter is working again so my VMS
server and Mac can once again print. Life is good.
Now that things are straightened back out, it's time to get back to something fun,
namely getting my RSTS/E system talking on my network :^)
During the network issues I managed to get DECnet/E installed on my PDP-11/73, and had
managed to do a directory listing (unreliably though) of the RSTS/E system. I'm now
able to reliably list directories on the RSTS/E system. More importantly I have LAT
working, so I can log in from my DECserver!!!!
What isn't working is the following:
Getting a directory of the VMS system from RSTS/E
Copying files between the two systems
Logging in from one system to the other
Has anyone tried getting a system running DECnet/E (Phase IV) to talk to a system running
DECnet-Plus?
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
24 Jan
24 Jan
9:54 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
Sent: 24 January 2004 23:40
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: DECnet/E and DECnet-Plus
Has anyone tried getting a system running DECnet/E (Phase IV) to
talk to a system running DECnet-Plus?
Yes, back when I did this sort of thing for a living. I got as far as
working out that the PhaseIV system had to be registered using
DECNET$REGISTER but usually ended up looking in dismay at the mountain of
docs needed to administer OSI (aka DECnet-Plus) and gave up. None of my
customers ever needed OSI apart from one, and that was because they still
had X25 links and had upgraded to Alpha 4100s. What a nightmare that was.
cheers
--
w
10:57 a.m.
Has anyone tried getting a system running DECnet/E
(Phase IV) to talk to a system running DECnet-Plus?
I have gotten a lot of DECnet-IV systems talking to DECnet-Plus. What you'll
need to do is register the DECnet-IV systems and then flush the naming cache.
I'm pretty sure that you'll want to use the menu-based method to register the
systems, so make sure you are using a VT100-compatible terminal and have set
the terminal characteristics properly on the VMS system. The utility you use
to register systems is SYS$SYSTEM:DECNET_REGISTER. Register the DECnet-IV
node with the DECnet address of LOCAL:.nodename and the Phase-IV alias of
nodename. The type of connection to use with the Phase-IV system is NSP.
After the node is registered you'll need to flush the naming cache. Use the
following command:
$ mcr ncl flush session control naming cache entry "*"
After that, you should be able to connect to the Phase-IV system.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
11:21 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Dittman
Sent: 25 January 2004 00:58
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: DECnet/E and DECnet-Plus
After the node is registered you'll need to flush the naming
cache. Use the
following command:
$ mcr ncl flush session control naming cache entry "*"
After all these years that was the command I was missing.......grrr.....
--
w
1:38 p.m.
I have gotten a lot of DECnet-IV systems talking to
DECnet-Plus. What you'll
need to do is register the DECnet-IV systems and then flush the naming cache.
I've done this with RSX-11M and VAX/VMS without any problem, it's DECnet/E that
seems to be the problem. I don't know if I've failed to set something up
correctly on the RSTS/E side, or what.
After that, you should be able to connect to the
Phase-IV system.
Directory Service: Local name file
Node name: LOCAL:.rstse
Phase IV synonym: RSTSE
Address tower protocol and selector values:
Session: DNA_SessionControlV2 (SC2)
00 13
Transport: DNA_NSP (NSP)
(no selector value)
Routing: DNA_OSInetwork (CLNS)
49::00-3C:AA-00-04-00-97-F2:20 (60.663)
Number of nodes reported on: 1
$ set host rstse
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
$
On the RSTS/E system console, I get the following:
Event type 34.1, Object spawn failure
Occurred 10-Jan-17 17:40:49.5 on node 60.663 (RSTSE)
Reason: Unknown Object identification
Source node = 1.652
Source process = 0 0 0 HEALYZH
Destination Process = 42
There are a couple of odd things about this error, one is that "SHOW DATE" on
the RSTS/E system shows 24-JAN-04 05:40 PM, so it looks like DECnet/E has a Y2k problem.
The other is that the source node is 60.652, not 1.652 like the error message states.
The Y2k error shouldn't be a problem, as my RSX-11M system works with the wrong date.
On a positive note, I finally got things setup so I can connect to the RSTS/E system via
LAT from the VMS system :^)
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
25 Jan
25 Jan
5:19 a.m.
$ set host rstse
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
$
On the RSTS/E system console, I get the following:
Event type 34.1, Object spawn failure
Occurred 10-Jan-17 17:40:49.5 on node 60.663 (RSTSE)
Reason: Unknown Object identification
Source node = 1.652
Source process = 0 0 0 HEALYZH
Destination Process = 42
OK, so the Decnet-Plus box gets as far as prodding the RSTS box
and asking to use object 42. Something at the back of my mind
is telling me that the protocol (and object) used for remote
terminal connections changed somewhere along the line.
I know nothing about RSTS/E so I don't know what object
it uses for terminal connections. Try to set host
from the RSTS/E system to the DECnet-Plus system and
see what the ensuing OPCOM message whines about. If it's
not 42, then you have your answer. You then get to
release a few white mice on a blue-green planet to
find the question (I'm not prepared to wait a few
million years, but I bet the question will be
"How do I persuade DECnet-Plus to use the old
protocol").
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
8:29 a.m.
it uses for terminal connections. Try to set host
from the RSTS/E system to the DECnet-Plus system and
see what the ensuing OPCOM message whines about. If it's
not 42, then you have your answer. You then get to
release a few white mice on a blue-green planet to
find the question (I'm not prepared to wait a few
million years, but I bet the question will be
"How do I persuade DECnet-Plus to use the old
protocol").
<sigh> I wish I'd thought of that, oddly enough, I don't get any messages at
all on the VMS server! I'm thinking that my problems might largely be with the way
DECnet is configured on the RSTS/E side of things. I've got the System Installation
manual, but it's not been of much help. At least the System Managers Manual helped me
get LAT working.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
10:26 a.m.
<sigh> I wish I'd thought of that, oddly
enough, I don't get
any messages at all on the VMS server! I'm thinking that my
problems might largely be with the way DECnet is configured
on the RSTS/E side of things. I've got the System
I've got precisely one RSTS/E manual, it might even be one of
the DECnet ones; I'll have a look tomorrow.
One quick check might be to SET HOST to your DECnet-Plus node
from somewhere else and verify that you get OPCOM
messages
(as it's possible to disable them).
An alternative is to grant yourself NET$TRACEALL and then try:
TRACE START/LIVE NSP
Now you should at least see some traffic arriving (although
figuring out the problem will involve some knowledge of
DECnet NSP).
Assuming events do display on the console but you see nothing (and
or see nothing in TRACE), the next possibility
is that the RSTS/E system thinks that the node you want is actually
somewhere else. I know nothing about RSTS/E, but if this is a
possibility try SET HOST to the full numeric address rather than
a name.
If you still see no activity, perhaps there is something that sends
the RSTS system off to the wrong place (after all, it said that the
incoming area 60 connection was from area 1). Maybe RSTS does not
implement the area stuff properly (any chance it might be Phase III?)
If you can persuade your hub/switch to monitor traffic connected
to the RSTS box, see if you can do an ethereal trace and decode
the AA-00-04-00 address the RSTS box sends traffic to.
If the RSTS box does turn out to be running Phase III DECnet rather
than Phas IV, I think all bets are off (although you can in that
case probably use poor-man's-routing through a Phase IV box).
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
11:56 a.m.
One quick check might be to SET HOST to your
DECnet-Plus node
from somewhere else and verify that you get OPCOM messages
(as it's possible to disable them).
You know, I'm getting tired of fighting things that *had* worked. I just discovered
that the VMS box can no longer SET HOST to itself!?!?! This is something that I'm in
the habit of doing occasionally, and I'm not sure when it broke. So, until I can
figure that one out, further troubleshooting on the RSTS/E side is probably a waste of
time.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
24 Jan
24 Jan
11:10 a.m.
Makes sense.... even though a switch is really just a bank of bridges,
for decnet you're better off with a hub. Though I haven't run into
localtalk issues to date with using switches.
Curt
Zane H. Healy wrote:
I've *finally* gotten the network problems I've
been fighting at home resolved. It looks as if my Intel 10/100 24-port Switch has decided
that it no longer wants anything to do with 10Mbit <sigh>. Anyhow, I've moved
my home network back to my old 8-port 10/100 hub and a 8-port 10Mbit hub, and everything
is happy (thankfully the 24-port is serious overkill at the moment).
As a result I now have managed to get the VT420 on the DECserver 90L+ to reliably talk to
my DEC PWS 433au, and my Ethertalk-to-Localtalk converter is working again so my VMS
server and Mac can once again print. Life is good.
Now that things are straightened back out, it's time to get back to something fun,
namely getting my RSTS/E system talking on my network :^)
During the network issues I managed to get DECnet/E installed on my PDP-11/73, and had
managed to do a directory listing (unreliably though) of the RSTS/E system. I'm now
able to reliably list directories on the RSTS/E system. More importantly I have LAT
working, so I can log in from my DECserver!!!!
What isn't working is the following:
Getting a directory of the VMS system from RSTS/E
Copying files between the two systems
Logging in from one system to the other
Has anyone tried getting a system running DECnet/E (Phase IV) to talk to a system running
DECnet-Plus?
Zane
--
Curt Vendel & Karl Morris
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Atari Museum
http://www.atarimuseum.com
The Atari Explorer
http://www.atari-explorer.com
11:38 a.m.
Makes sense.... even though a switch is really just a
bank of bridges, for decnet you're better off with a hub. Though I haven't run
into localtalk issues to date with using switches.
I've run DECnet through switches without any difficulty, just not this switch. It was
handling the Ethertalk-to-Localtalk converter just fine, then slowly got more erratic.
Same with LAT. It about drove me crazy trying to figure out what was going wrong.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
30 Jan
30 Jan
2:49 p.m.
Zane,
What isn't working is the following:
Getting a directory of the VMS system from RSTS/E
Copying files between the two systems
Logging in from one system to the other
What I did notice is that DEQNA's (and DELQA's) quite often drop packets
as soon as traffic gets heavier on the network. I tested this at the
raw-iron level (my own bare-metal test code) so that is not an OS-
driver issue. Under E11, I did not see this weirdness happen, so it
is a real-hardware thing.
Test boxes were various BA23's and BA123's with /23, /53, /73 and /83
CPU's.
This packet-dropping *may* cause network unreliability with traffic-
intensive ops such as copying files..
--f
31 Jan
31 Jan
4:22 a.m.
Fred,
What I did notice is that DEQNA's (and DELQA's)
quite often drop packets
as soon as traffic gets heavier on the network. I tested this at the
raw-iron level (my own bare-metal test code) so that is not an OS-
driver issue. Under E11, I did not see this weirdness happen, so it
is a real-hardware thing.
Have you ever gotten DECnet/E running on E11? Has anyone? I forget where it dies, but
IIRC, it gets as far as the reboot after the install, then it can no longer find the
ethernet adapter.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
4:43 a.m.
Hi,
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> said:
Fred,
I'd love to know too. I just found a NE2000 card which I stuck in my E11
machine and was about to look at DECnet (about which I know *nothing*).
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
What I did notice is that DEQNA's (and
DELQA's) quite often drop packets
as soon as traffic gets heavier on the network. I tested this at the
raw-iron level (my own bare-metal test code) so that is not an OS-
driver issue. Under E11, I did not see this weirdness happen, so it
is a real-hardware thing.
Have you ever gotten DECnet/E running on E11? Has anyone? I forget where it dies, but
IIRC, it gets as far as the reboot after the install, then it can no longer find the
ethernet adapter.
9:27 p.m.
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Well, to quote Eric Cartman: "I would if I could, you..." .. I
dont have anything for RSTS other than RSTS itself, *and* have
a serious lack in knowledge of the system :) Learning RSX and
RSTS is high on my todo-list.
But, if you give me directions, and a copy of dnet/e, I can
always try it on my hardware and emu's...
--f
What I did
notice is that DEQNA's (and DELQA's) quite often drop packets
as soon as traffic gets heavier on the network. I tested this at the
raw-iron level (my own bare-metal test code) so that is not an OS-
driver issue. Under E11, I did not see this weirdness happen, so it
is a real-hardware thing.
Have you ever gotten DECnet/E running on E11? Has anyone? I forget where it dies, but
IIRC, it gets as far as the reboot after the install, then it can no longer find the
ethernet adapter.
7396
days inactive
7404
days old
14 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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arcarlini＠iee.org -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
dittman＠dittman.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk