31 Oct
1998
31 Oct
'98
1:10 p.m.
One expects that the operating system executing on the 11/44 will be
RSTS or RX/11 or some other operating system. Hence, the commands
(and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the
operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine?
This information is important to me, since I 1) have an 11/44 being
shipped to me in the next month, 2) have no idea of the OS's that
such a computer can support (though my 11/34a and 11/45 have RSTS/E
and BSD 2.9), and 3) expect, as you, to operate the thing upon arrival.
BTW - mine was used for timesharing applications at a university, so
I expect yours is a fairly large machine. Please, tell me more about your
11/44, such as features of the CPU, the memory size, and peripheral
devices available, and the overall dimensions of the computer. Mine is
said to be some 30 feet long, so if yours is similar, how do you find the
space to put all the parts together. I plan to put mine in the living room
of my home, and my wife, as you might imagine, has some reservations
on the matter!
William R. Buckley
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitch Wright <mew_jac(a)swbell.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 6:11 PM
Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt
Ok, So ">>>BOOT DM" booted the 11/44
from the RK07. Thank you Toni. But
I'd like to know what the rest of the commands do? This is the dump from
HELP:
(Console V3.40C)
(Program)
(Console)
Halted at 165714
>>he
Commands :
ADDRESS
BOOT
BREAK
CONTINUE
DEPOSIT
EXAMINE
FILL
HALT
HELP
INITIALIZE
MICROSTEP
NEXT
START
TEST
Arguments :
0-7
-
*
+
@
SWR
PC
PSW
KSP
SSP
USP
Qualifiers :
REPEAT
/IR
/NODIAGNOSTIC
/SCOPE
/EXTENSIVE
/N:
/CB
/TB
Addressing :
/P
/G
/M
/VI
/VD
/UI
/UD
/KI
/KD
/SI
/SD
>>
Thanks, Mitch Wright 
31 Oct
31 Oct
1:39 p.m.
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2:02 p.m.
New subject: CRT decay
I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges.
I've seen foam turn to dust, rubber turn to goo, batteries turn to acid,
but I hadn't expected CRT glass to revert to sand. Sam tells me that he's
seen something similar on his Soroc terminal.
What process is causing this? Isn't glass basically SiO2? I assume it's
crystalizing rather than oxidizing.
Anything I can do to prevent it from occurring on other tubes?
Any interesting risks associated with firing an electron gun at this
crystalized stuff with no remaining phosphor?
-- Doug
1 Nov
1 Nov
4:41 a.m.
New subject: CRT decay
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31 Oct
31 Oct
10 a.m.
New subject: CRT decay
Tony Duell wrote:
Metric ton? Just kidding. Anyway I don't think the person means the glass is
actually decaying (awful thick in front and sides anyway) bit probably that
the finish is eroding, getting rough. Probably had a coating that's starting
to crumble or etch.
Sounds like more defined description is due.
Never seen glass decay at all before either and I also have glass (super
thin) in watch glasses of very old watches as well as the faces of old
radios and televisions. Didn't even think about the age of the CRT itself
until you said 50 yrs and had to think that that's only 1948. Man how time
flies. I have an oscilloscope (Navy surplus) that was used int he Korean War
that's around 1951 and the CRT is like new all the way around, but
internally getting a little dim.
I've got
an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges.
Are you _sure_. Glass is normally pretty stable, and if it was really
decaying I would have expected the CRT to have imploded. There's about
1/2 a ton of force on the screen of even small CRTs. 
3 Nov
3 Nov
10:49 a.m.
New subject: CRT decay
On this subject, but perhaps not quite on topic, I have a VGA monitor
which performs perfectly well if it is left on all of the time but if it
is switched off for more than an hour or so then it takes time for the
picture to reappear. Strangely it seems that the longer it is switched
off the longer it takes to 'warm up', in the extreme case after bieng off
for a week or so it can take half an hour or so for the pidcture to
reappear and the brightnedd will fluctuate for some time after that. Has
anyone got any idea what is happening?
Regards
Pete
1:03 p.m.
New subject: CRT decay
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1 Nov
1 Nov
9:59 a.m.
New subject: CRT decay
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along
the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the
glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if
it spontaneously implodes.
I've got
an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges.
Are you _sure_. Glass is normally pretty stable, and if it was really
decaying I would have expected the CRT to have imploded. There's about
1/2 a ton of force on the screen of even small CRTs. However, there are CRTs that are made with a laminated
glass faceplate -
That's probably it. I saw beads along the edge, so it must be the plastic
that is crystalizing. I'll still let you know when it spontaneously
implodes, though :-)
No remaining phosphor? This is strange... What on
earth is going on?
It's possible that the phosphor was simply hidden by the now-opaque
plastic crystal.
So, how do you detect these laminated CRTs, and can they be sealed to
prevent this type of decay?
-- Doug
2 Nov
2 Nov
1:27 a.m.
New subject: CRT decay
At 05:59 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along
the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the
glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if
it spontaneously implodes.
Is it possible that you're seeing some element that's been vaporized
and is now being re-deposited as crystalline material? There is so
much going on inside a tube with high voltage, heaters, glowing wires,
etc. that something could be vaporizing and cooling.
Which reminds me of something I'd do as a kid: pop open vacuum tubes
and add water to the grey material tucked inside the rings, which would
then fizz. Maybe it was calcium carbide. I imagine it was there to
suck up water or gas after the tube had been sealed.
- John
1:34 a.m.
New subject: CRT decay
At 06:41 PM 11/1/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
> I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges.
I wonder if there isn't a second sheet of glass over the front of the
actual CRT that might be delaminating. You see that a lot in old car
windshields. They started turning gray around the edges and get
progressively worse.
Joe
31 Oct
31 Oct
2:51 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
If you saw this CPU card in a junk pile and didn't know it was a UNIBUS
card you'd mistake it for some kind of 8085 controller board with 74181s
on it. Sort of sick, a PDP-11/44 slaved to a 8085.
--Mitch
One expects that the operating system executing on the 11/44 will be
RSTS or RX/11 or some other operating system. Hence, the commands
(and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the
operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine?
The 11/44 has a rather nice monitor built in to the CPU system. It runs
on an 8085 processor, and it lets you type commands on an standard ascii
terminal to edit the PDP11's memory, start/halt programs, etc. Even look
at the CPU microprogram counter.
It's a replacement for the old lights-and-switches panel. The commands
are totally independant of any OS you might be running - in fact you can
use the 'frontpanel' commands on a machine with no mass storage at all.
-tony
1 Nov
1 Nov
4:51 a.m.
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10:02 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Your absolutely right, in this system:
Slot4 M7094 Data Path
Slot5 M7095 Control
Slot6 M7096 MFM & 8085
Slot7 M7097 Cache & 74s181
Slot8 M7098 UBI
Mitch
If you saw this CPU card in a junk pile and
didn't know it was a UNIBUS
card you'd mistake it for some kind of 8085 controller board with 74181s
on it. Sort of sick, a PDP-11/44 slaved to a 8085.
Hmm... Well, DEC cards have a pretty distinctive form factor, so you'd
probably guess is was something out of a DEC machine.
But acutally, the 8085 is on a card called the MFM (Multi Function Module). That contains very little of the CPU. There
are 2 other cards
with the main CPU on it (that's where you'd find the 74S181s) + cache,
more bus interfacing, etc. The CPU is 5 boards I think + 1 for the
floating point + 2 for the CIS (which I don't have in my 11/44).
-tony
12:17 p.m.
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31 Oct
31 Oct
2:05 p.m.
Buck Savage wrote:
One expects that the operating system executing on the 11/44 will be
RSTS or RX/11 or some other operating system. Hence, the commands
(and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the
operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine?
Its got RSTS/E on tape and platter. Ver 7.x to ver 9.x. My memory of the
the PDP-11 boot prompt was different from this one. The TS11 tape drive
is broke and I think one of the RK07s need alignment. I can get RSTS to
boot up past the init stage but I think it is expecting the second
drive. I don't know much about RSTS so I'm sort of shooting in the dark.
I expect to put BSD on it and maybe RT-11 if I get the tape and drive
working.
You got more money than I if you can pay to have one of these shipped
anywhere. It was a timeshare system at a school also. Four racks, one
fullsize for the TS11 tapedrive, two halfsize for the heavy RK07s, and
one halfsize for the CPU. The CPU has two 16 port terminal controllers
and the RK07 controller.
My wife wants her parking space back in the garage. I can not imagine
anyone turning one of these things on in their living room, you'll dim
the lights and go deaf.
I was looking for somrthing more along the line of an 11/34 but you
gott'ya take what comes your way.
I'm mostly looking for documenation now, which might take some time to
track down.
--Mitch
This information is important to me, since I 1) have an 11/44 being
shipped to me in the next month, 2) have no idea of the OS's that
such a computer can support (though my 11/34a and 11/45 have RSTS/E
and BSD 2.9), and 3) expect, as you, to operate the thing upon arrival.
BTW - mine was used for timesharing applications at a university, so
I expect yours is a fairly large machine. Please, tell me more about your
11/44, such as features of the CPU, the memory size, and peripheral
devices available, and the overall dimensions of the computer. Mine is
said to be some 30 feet long, so if yours is similar, how do you find the
space to put all the parts together. I plan to put mine in the living room
of my home, and my wife, as you might imagine, has some reservations
on the matter!
William R. Buckley
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitch Wright <mew_jac(a)swbell.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 6:11 PM
Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt
Ok, So ">>>BOOT DM" booted the
11/44 from the RK07. Thank you Toni. But
I'd like to know what the rest of the commands do? This is the dump from
HELP:
1 Nov
1 Nov
4:48 a.m.
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10:23 a.m.
I agree, hunting the manuals and schematics could take awhile. The
hardware seems to be around. Just need to snoop around for a large site
deinstallation, could be a lot of these in the next few years. The sad
part is in the late 80's and early 90's I put into the dumpster a bunch
of this stuff.
--Mitch
Tony Duell wrote:
I was looking for somrthing more along the line
of an 11/34 but you
gott'ya take what comes your way.
Yep... As I've said to a few people : "I'd not recomend a PDP11/45 as you
first -11, an 11/05 or something is a lot easier to start out with. But
_I_ started on an 11/45 because that's what I was offered".
I'm mostly looking for documenation now,
which might take some time to
track down.
Well, although I've mananged to obtain a couple of shelf-fulls of PDP11
docs and (especially) printsets, it wasn't that easy. I've spent a good
few years hunting for old manuals, geting and repairing 'scrap' boards,
etc.
My first PDP11 (the 11/45) came with no peripherals at all. Not even a
DL11 console port. Oh, there was an RK11-C, but no RK05s to link to it.
I got the printsets but no user manuals, so I didn't have a clue as to
what the instruction set was. Oh, and there was no memory. I was given a
MUD card (I didn't know what it was called) but no backplane. First job
was to modify the only DD11 I had to take an MUD RAM card.
It took me nearly a year to find a DL11 and some disk drives. In that
time I'd managed to borrow a DEC microprocessor handbook - the 11/23
instruction set was near enough to let me write programs. And then I
obtained a few handbooks, a DZ11, a few more prints, etc. Finally I got a
disk unit, a couple of DL11s, some realtime I/O cards, etc.
-tony 
12:11 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I also started out learning computer hardware on the PDP 11/45 at Maynard.
The only thing hard about the class was trying to figure out what those
hyroglyphics were that described somehow the internal workings of the thing
:). Hardware repair was pretty much limited to putting tape on one of the
board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board was
reinstalled.
I was looking for somrthing more along the line
of an 11/34 but you
gott'ya take what comes your way.
Yep... As I've said to a few people : "I'd not recomend a PDP11/45 as you
first -11, an 11/05 or something is a lot easier to start out with. But
_I_ started on an 11/45 because that's what I was offered".
1:09 p.m.
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1:58 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Used all the time in debugging and diagnostic of new systems and if I
told you the technique Compaq would kill ME.
--Mitch
-tony
I also started out learning computer hardware on
the PDP 11/45 at Maynard.
The only thing hard about the class was trying to figure out what those
You went to a class? I had the machine, the printsets and a logic probe.
And no list like this one to ask for help when I got confused...
hyroglyphics were that described somehow the
internal workings of the thing
:). Hardware repair was pretty much limited to putting tape on one of the
board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board was
reinstalled.
Eh? I can understand why that might introduce a 'deliberate fault' which
you'd have to find, but I can't think of a diagnostic technique where
isolating odd pins of the 11/45 CPU modules would be that useful.
2 Nov
2 Nov
4:36 a.m.
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1 Nov
1 Nov
6:12 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I was sent there by the company I worked for at the time in preparation for
starting up a new bakery (just happened to be the largest one in the world
at that time.) It ended up that I became rather proficient at repairing the
PDP 11/05 and the PDP-16s and never worked on the 11/45s at the plant.
One cute (to me) story. I knew the 16s pretty well, but I was switched to
another area and another foreman took my place. Well a problem developed
with one of the computers and I was *told* not to take care of the problem.
After a week of downtime, I was told to go up and see what the problem was.
About 5 minutes after that, everything was back to normal. I had left
specific instructions that the machines were not to be exchanged out except
when a power supply went bad. A computer went down and the new foreman told
the tech to change out the machine. Apparently the foreman was not well
respected, and the tech just did as he was told (so I found out later when I
asked the tech why.) A number of cards in the PDP-16 were specific to the
location the PDP-16 was installed, and changing the computer out took these
specific cards (constants cards) and put them on the bench with who knows
what in the computer at that point. A quick change of cards solved that
problem.
An understanding of how the machine worked was what was being taught. Being
able to find and define what wasn't working was one way of showing at least
some understanding of how it worked. We only ran into trouble once when we
taped the wrong pin and put the card back in. We ended up creating a
problem with the microcode execution, and that one proved a bit difficult to
locate (took us about 45 minutes or so to find the problem.)
I also started out learning computer hardware on
the PDP 11/45 at Maynard.
The only thing hard about the class was trying to figure out what those
You went to a class? I had the machine, the printsets and a logic probe.
And no list like this one to ask for help when I got confused... hyroglyphics
were that described somehow the internal workings of the thing
:). Hardware repair was pretty much limited to putting tape on one of the
board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board was
reinstalled.
Eh? I can understand why that might introduce a 'deliberate fault' which
you'd have to find, but I can't think of a diagnostic technique where
isolating odd pins of the 11/45 CPU modules would be that useful. 
31 Oct
31 Oct
4:20 p.m.
"Buck Savage" <hhacker(a)gte.net> wrote:
I 1) have an 11/44 being shipped to me in the next
month,
[...]
Mine is said to be some 30 feet long,
A PDP-11/44 computer is a 10 1/2 inch high rack-mount box, usually
installed in a short rack.
The CPU, memory, and one or two SPC modules occupy a 14-slot backplane
in the box. There is room in the box for additional backplanes for
peripheral controllers.
A 30-foot long PDP-11/44 installation must have a fairly large number
of peripherals.
5:22 p.m.
BTW - mine was used for timesharing applications at a
university, so
I expect yours is a fairly large machine. Please, tell me more about your
11/44, such as features of the CPU, the memory size, and peripheral
devices available, and the overall dimensions of the computer. Mine is
said to be some 30 feet long, so if yours is similar, how do you find the
Wow, I don't know what's more impressive, that it's about 30 feet, or your
having it shipped! Thats got to be about 16 racks!
Mine is two racks, but I believe it was at least three at one point since
it has two controller for RL drives. I've added a TU-81+ tape drive, but
don't have a controller yet. Still haven't gotten the thing powered on yet
anyway, hard to find time to go out in the garage and work on it.
space to put all the parts together. I plan to put
mine in the living room
of my home, and my wife, as you might imagine, has some reservations
on the matter!
Um, have you ever worked around any major computer installations? These
things are noisy! I occasionally bring in a RL01 or RL02 drive into the
house to attach to a Q-Bus system and that's noisier than I'm wanting to
have running much. Then there is the hum of the power supply, and let's
not forget the heat. Personally I want a place with a nice big two or
three car garage eventually, put in airconditioning and proper power, and
you'd have a good computer room (though probably not the cleanest).
Oh, as for OS's, a /44 should run just about anything that doesn't have
very narrow hardware requirements (i.e. Version 5,6,7 UNIX). Hopefully
you're getting documentation. I finally found a copy of the tech manual
today (YIPEE), along with a bunch of VAX stuff at a local junk store.
Unfortunatly I missed the Ultrix-32 Distro tapes, but got the manuals (a
friend happened to be in latter in the day and found them).
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
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