28 Jun
2004
28 Jun
'04
2:19 p.m.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com stated:
Drat. Apparently the cabling for the data lines is
nichrome. Whether
that's
for mechanical, reliability or electrical reasons I
have no idea.
Later.
The only reason I can think of for nichrome is that
there would be a uniform resistance in the wire
(likely) or (unlikely) nichrome is a poor (for a
metal) conductor of heat.
My Tek 1230 is definitely plain old IDC, and that
model is worth up to and including nothing without the
probes. Probes are $400+ (without the grabbers!). I
have 3 and have turned down an offer for $300 for one
of them.
I spoke with a surplus test equipment supplier and he
told me that these are almost always lost when they go
up for auction, especially military. Off lease, they
just bill the customer and dump them surplus anyway.
I actually looked into building a probe - no
schematics, no info from TEK, custom and proprietary
IC's, and I suspect absolute analog comparator voodoo
designed for clean and fast risetimes.
Bottom line: you need to get your dough back. Accept
no less.
=====
-Steve Loboyko
Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie:
"When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day."
Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl
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28 Jun
28 Jun
7:23 p.m.
In message <20040629021925.96725.qmail(a)web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
Loboyko Steve <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
My Tek 1230 is definitely plain old IDC, and that
model is worth up to and including nothing without the
probes. Probes are $400+ (without the grabbers!). I
have 3 and have turned down an offer for $300 for one
of them.
Just out of curiosity, what's the speed rating of your 1230? My HP
1651B can
do 25MHz state and 100MHz timing.
I suppose I can always try IDC cable. It's not exactly expensive stuff and
there's a good chance of it actually working. If I can't get any HP probes
and the seller won't refund me for the analyser, it's always an option.
Off lease, they
just bill the customer and dump them surplus anyway.
I suppose the same thing
happens to oscilloscopes. My Tek 466 still needs
another probe - Tek part number P6062B.
I actually looked into building a probe - no
schematics, no info from TEK, custom and proprietary
IC's,
The HP probes use a custom analog IC, but the innards of said IC have
been
published in an appnote. Replacing it is possible - just use two resistors
and a capacitor.
Bottom line: you need to get your dough back. Accept
no less.
In my experience, I'll probably get negative feedback for requesting a
full
refund, but I guess it's worth a shot.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... VCR's are a way to defeat time.....
29 Jun
29 Jun
4:26 a.m.
At 08:23 AM 6/29/04 +0100, you wrote:
If he tries that then complain to E-bay. They can and will remove
negative feedback in cases like this. You might also file a complaint with
the postage authorities in your location and his. If he has a business you
can also file complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the
equivilent) and law enforcement.
Joe
In message <20040629021925.96725.qmail(a)web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
Loboyko Steve <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Bottom line: you need to get your dough back.
Accept
no less.
In my experience, I'll probably get negative feedback for requesting a
full
refund, but I guess it's worth a shot.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... VCR's are a way to defeat time.....
6:22 a.m.
In message <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140(a)pop-server.cfl.rr.com>
"Joe R." <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote:
If he tries that then complain to E-bay. They can
and will remove
negative feedback in cases like this. You might also file a complaint with
the postage authorities in your location and his. If he has a business you
can also file complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the
equivilent) and law enforcement.
He's just emailed me to say that he's got
some pods, grabber tips and cables
due in at some point in the next week or so. In the meantime, I've used a bit
of solid-core wire and a few 100K resistors to check the analyser. It's a
bodge, but it seems to work fine at low frequencies.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... "Shhh! The Christians think they are up here alone."..God
9:54 a.m.
At 07:22 PM 6/29/04 +0100, you wrote:
In message <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140(a)pop-server.cfl.rr.com>
"Joe R." <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote:
Good! Just don't let him drag it out past the deadline to file negative
feedback and/or complaints to E-bay and others.
Has the stuff that I sent arrived yet?
Joe
In the meantime, I've used a bit
If he tries that then complain to E-bay. They
can and will remove
negative feedback in cases like this. You might also file a complaint with
the postage authorities in your location and his. If he has a business you
can also file complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the
equivilent) and law enforcement.
He's just emailed me to say that he's got
some pods, grabber tips and cables
due in at some point in the next week or so. of solid-core wire and a few 100K resistors to check
the analyser. It's a
bodge, but it seems to work fine at low frequencies.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... "Shhh! The Christians think they are up here alone."..God
10:09 a.m.
My Tek 1230 is
definitely plain old IDC, and that
model is worth up to and including nothing without the
probes. Probes are $400+ (without the grabbers!). I
have 3 and have turned down an offer for $300 for one
of them.
Just out of curiosity, what's the speed rating of your 1230? My HP
1651B can
do 25MHz state and 100MHz timing. I suppose I can always try IDC cable. It's not
exactly expensive stuff and
there's a good chance of it actually working. If I can't get any HP probes
My guess it that it will work, but you probably won't be able to run at
the specified maximum speed.
and the seller won't refund me for the analyser,
it's always an option.
My expeirience is that for classic computer work, any logic analyser,
even a 10MHz one, is a lot better than nothing, provided you know what it
can and cna't do.
In other words, I'd be inclined to make up kludge-pods for this analyser
and at least try it out. I don't know what machines you normally work on,
but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit micros, HP calculators
(including desktops), and so on
-tony
11:48 a.m.
In message <m1BfQmq-000JD0C@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
My guess it that it will work, but you probably
won't be able to run at
the specified maximum speed.
That's what I thought.
My expeirience is that for classic computer work, any
logic analyser,
even a 10MHz one, is a lot better than nothing, provided you know what it
can and cna't do.
Well, in this case, I'm still trying to get the hang of
the front panel
controls on the 1651B. The badly-OCRed copy of the Getting Started Guide I've
got is just about usable, but a lot of the OCR errors are subtle - changing
commands and suchlike in non-obvious ways.
I'll probably buy a manual later, but the manual comes after the pods and
cable kit on my list of priorities.
Speaking of manuals, I've got the service manual for the 1652B - no
schematics, just a boardswapping guide. Yecch.
In other words, I'd be inclined to make up
kludge-pods for this analyser
and at least try it out.
I've got it hooked up to a PICmicro development board
- it's rigged up to the
1-wire bus output. At least I know Pod 1 bit 0 works - now to test the other
31...
I don't know what machines you normally work on,
8-bit micros mainly. 6502, 8080, Z80, that sort of thing. I was going to get
one of the 80-channel HP analysers, but I decided I didn't need to probe that
many lines at once - I don't do much work on 16- and 32-bit CPUs.
but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit
micros, HP calculators
(including desktops), and so on
If I need an 80 channel analyser, I'll
probably build my own - it can't be
that hard to shove a bunch of FIFOs and an oscillator on an ISA-bus card,
then write some software to drive it.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... 640K ought to be enough for anybody. - Bill Gates
1:44 p.m.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:48:46 +0100
Philip Pemberton <philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
In message <m1BfQmq-000JD0C@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
A few years back I remember reading on a list somewhere that HP's
(Agilents?) web/ftp archive of documents related to test equipment of
this type was soon to go offline. I recall mirroring a ton of it that I
have stuck away on a set of CDR disks somewhere. I think it was 3-5 CDs
that I archived at that time. Specifically I remember it having a lot
of the 1630/1650/16500 materials. I may have the manuals you want on a
CD here. Reply if you're interested. I probably can't put this all
'up' on a site for everybody as it would have to be cleared by HP for
such use/distribution.
I am the proud owner of an HP1630G with pods. I have used the 1650 and
16500 on occasion professionally. I earlier had one of the earlier 16xx
analyzers and took a stab at one point at making my own pods for it. It
was much slower than the 1650 tho.
I'm surprised that nobody has made replicating these pods in some
fashion into a published project somewhere. It seems like a worthy
design effort that many people would benefit from.
My guess it that it will work, but you probably
won't be able to run
at the specified maximum speed.
That's what I thought.
My expeirience is that for classic computer work,
any logic
analyser, even a 10MHz one, is a lot better than nothing, provided
you know what it can and cna't do.
Well, in this case, I'm still trying to
get the hang of the front
panel controls on the 1651B. The badly-OCRed copy of the Getting
Started Guide I've got is just about usable, but a lot of the OCR
errors are subtle - changing commands and suchlike in non-obvious
ways. I'll probably buy a manual later, but the manual comes after the
pods and cable kit on my list of priorities.
Speaking of manuals, I've got the service manual for the 1652B - no
schematics, just a boardswapping guide. Yecch. In other words, I'd be inclined to make up
kludge-pods for this
analyser and at least try it out.
I've got it hooked up to a PICmicro
development board - it's rigged up
to the 1-wire bus output. At least I know Pod 1 bit 0 works - now to
test the other 31...
I don't know what machines you normally work
on,
8-bit micros mainly. 6502, 8080, Z80, that sort of thing. I was going
to get one of the 80-channel HP analysers, but I decided I didn't need
to probe that many lines at once - I don't do much work on 16- and
32-bit CPUs.
but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit
micros, HP
calculators (including desktops), and so on
If I need an 80 channel analyser,
I'll probably build my own - it
can't be that hard to shove a bunch of FIFOs and an oscillator on an
ISA-bus card, then write some software to drive it.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202,
64MB, 6GB, philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT
Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD,
ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI... 640K ought to be enough for anybody. - Bill
Gates
9:14 p.m.
In message <20040629204441.12c8daeb.sastevens(a)earthlink.net>
Scott Stevens <sastevens(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
I'm surprised that nobody has made replicating
these pods in some
fashion into a published project somewhere. It seems like a worthy
design effort that many people would benefit from.
I might have a go at doing the
design work today. It's just a case of finding
my Isograph pens, a ruler and a bit of paper. The connector looks like a
standard IDC connector, but I don't think I've got any IDC40 sockets in
stock.
That and I need to find somewhere that stocks grabber probes at a reasonable
price...
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Feet Smell? Nose Run? Hey, you're upside down!
11:18 a.m.
I might have a go at doing the design work today.
It's just a case of finding
my Isograph pens, a ruler and a bit of paper. The connector looks like a
Ah, somebody else who believes in the paper-aided-design system, commonly
known as a PAD :-)...
I'm not sure what you need a ruler for, though. All my diagrams are
hand-drawn, and I still manage to understand them,
-tony
30 Jun
30 Jun
12:08 p.m.
On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:18:01 +2500 (BST), Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Ah, somebody else who believes in the
paper-aided-design system, commonly
known as a PAD :-)...
I'm not sure what you need a ruler for, though. All my diagrams are
hand-drawn, and I still manage to understand them,
The other day a co-worker caught me using a flowchart template, pad of
graph paper, and a koh-i-noor mechanical pencil to diagram a program's
flow.
When they commented that there were tools like Visio available I had
to tell them that Visio (which is installed on one of my machines)
only helps with drawing, not with thinking.
There is just something about pencil to paper that makes the brain juices flow.
9:58 p.m.
In message <145cecdd04063017089827457(a)mail.gmail.com>
Christopher McNabb <cmcnabb(a)gmail.com> wrote:
When they commented that there were tools like Visio
available I had
to tell them that Visio (which is installed on one of my machines)
only helps with drawing, not with thinking.
And in the case of electronics design
software (e.g. PROTEL or EAGLE), you
tend to get innundated with "Two output pins on one net" and similar design
check errors rather quickly.
There is just something about pencil to paper that
makes the brain juices
flow.
Same here. I really need to find somewhere that stocks logic design and
electronic design templates, though. Most of the local stationers don't stock
them and couldn't get them either, which is a bit of a pain. ISTR Tandy
(RadioShack) used to sell them, but they're long gone now...
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Pets just die on you, where's the fun in that?
1 Jul
1 Jul
9:52 a.m.
There is just
something about pencil to paper that makes the brain juices
flow.
Same here. I really need to find somewhere that stocks logic design and
electronic design templates, though. Most of the local stationers don't stock
29 Jun
29 Jun
3:21 p.m.
I don't
know what machines you normally work on,
8-bit micros mainly. 6502, 8080, Z80,
that sort of thing. I was going to get
one of the 80-channel HP analysers, but I decided I didn't need to probe that
many lines at once - I don't do much work on 16- and 32-bit CPUs. but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit
micros, HP calculators
(including desktops), and so on
If I need an 80 channel analyser, I'll
probably build my own - it can't be
that hard to shove a bunch of FIFOs and an oscillator on an ISA-bus card, then write some software to drive it.
FWIW, I do a lot of my work with a 3 channel logic analyser (HP
LogicDart), and I find that to be enough. Often all I need to look at is
one signal against an enable or something like that. Actually, a
single-channel analyser is sometimes enough.
-tony
9:22 p.m.
In message <m1BfVfH-000IxtC@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
In which case I suspect this analyser with kludged
pods will be good enough.
The problem being that grabber probes tend to be rather
expensive - the
cheapest I found were ?1 +VAT, and they weren't particularly well made
either.
The SMD parts for the pods are cheap enough (?3 +VAT for enough parts to
build up 50 single-channel pods), IDC cable is easy enough to get, but the
grabbers are a bit too expensive. If I could get a few good-quality grabbers
for around 50p each...
I might just build a few interface pods with a 20-way IDC connector on the
output - fit an IDC20 to the target board, then just plug the analyser
straignt into the board.
I've been improvising with bits of solid core wire and 150K resistors. So far
I've managed to probe the 1-wire bus on an iButton-based lock, but that's
about it. I still need to test the other data channels on the analyser...
That's what the Elektor analyser consisted of.....
Yeah, I saw that. A few FIFOs and an Atmel MCU. I didn't build it because
there was no binary or source code available for the MCU and the software was
crap.
FWIW, I do a lot of my work with a 3 channel logic
analyser (HP
LogicDart),
Isn't that the handheld analyser that HP used to make? ISTR they
sold the
design rights to Fluke - I've seen them listed in the Farnell catalogue under
the heading "Fluke LogicDart handheld logic analyser".
and I find that to be enough. Often all I need to look
at is
one signal against an enable or something like that. Actually, a
single-channel analyser is sometimes enough.
I used to use a PC to do basic logic
analysis - the adapter was a DB25
connector connected to a few flying leads, with 47k resistors between the
leads and the connector. It worked reasonably well, but it kept missing
samples.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Flash Gordon exposed himself to all sorts of danger.
11:22 a.m.
That's
what the Elektor analyser consisted of.....
Yeah, I saw that. A few FIFOs and an
Atmel MCU. I didn't build it because
there was no binary or source code available for the MCU and the software=
was
crap. FWIW, I do a lot of my work with a 3 channel
logic analyser (HP=20
LogicDart),
Isn't that the handheld analyser that HP used to make? ISTR they
sold the design rights to Fluke - I've seen them listed in
the Farnell catalogue u=
nder
the heading "Fluke LogicDart handheld logic analyser".
Yes, I've heard that too. The Fluke version is probably perfectly OK
(certainly their multimeters are excellent).
The LogicDart (HP called it an 'Advanced Logic Probe') is a great tool.
It will _not_ replace your better logic analyser, it won't replace your
multimeter. But it's a useful 'first instrument' to pick up many faults.
It'll check the supply voltage, check the clock, let you distinguish
clocks from data lines (how else do you think I figured out what was
going on in HP handheld calculators :-)), let you look at the clock and
data lines of an I2C bus, etc, etc, etc.
Probably overkill for most people here, but I use mine a lot.
-tony
7247
days inactive
7250
days old
15 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cmcnabb＠gmail.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
sastevens＠earthlink.net -
sloboyko＠yahoo.com