15 Apr
2008
15 Apr
'08
2:11 p.m.
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris M
any thoughts on vintage chess games?
I used one back in the early 70s that was pretty decent with a nice
display. But you needed a CDC 6000-series system to run it; it was a
real cycle hog, IIRC.
Wonder if anyone bothered to preserve the game?
It was by-and-large written in CDC FORTRAN. It originally had its
own PP display driver (CHD); later versions used the programmable
"T"(on SCOPE 3.3, anyway) DSD screen.
Cheers,
Chuck
15 Apr
15 Apr
3:08 p.m.
Chuck wrote:
I used one back in the early 70s that was pretty decent
with a nice
display. But you needed a CDC 6000-series system to run it; it was a
real cycle hog, IIRC.
Wonder if anyone bothered to preserve the game?
I played this a lot on weekends when I was the Cyber 73 weekend operator
at Tektronix.
This was under KRONOS rather than SCOPE. I believe that the console
command was X.CHESS
It used both CRT's, the left for a nice vector display of the game
board, and the right for a listing of the moves made thus far, elapsed
time, and for entering moves. I believe that the main program ran all
of the chess processing, and that a PPU program communicated with the
main program. The PPU took care of keeping the display updated. It
offered, IIRC, ten different levels of play. The highest level I ever
beat the machine at was level 4. Above level 4, it'd beat me quite
easily. At level 10, I had no chance at all.
The Cyber 73 had two main CPUs, and 20 PPUs (10 for each CPU). The CPUs
were essentially 6600-design, with some enhancements for certain types
of vector operations, as well as dealing with shared main memory.
The load on the machine was pretty light on the weekends, and the
operator didn't have much to do other than mount an occasional tape, or
tend to the printer. The main program did load the machine a bit, but
didn't seem to have any effect on interactive users. May have slowed
down some big (run for a few days) circuit simulation jobs, but no one
ever complained, and it was a good way to beat the boredom of sitting in
a LOUD (lots of equipment), COLD (these machines like to run in a very
cool room...even though they had their own refrigeration system for
cooling) data center.
I do recall once printing out a copy of the source. It was mostly
FORTRAN-77, but there were some sections of assembly code if I remember
correctly. I spent quite a bit of time studying the code. It was
remarkably well-documented. Someone spent a lot of time on writing this
program. The PPU code was indecipherable for me, as I never really
learned much about the PPU instruction set. Sadly, I don't have this
printout. I kept it for a while, but it ended up going to recycle
during one of my moves. Bad me.
I also wonder if there's any archive out there for it? There's a pretty
good Cyber simulator out there that I've seen. Even a fairly modest PC
today should be able to run this thing at least at "Cyber" realtime, if
not faster. The machine did take a little time at level 10 once you got
past the opening move book section of the program...machine moves would
take from 5-10 seconds, to up to 90 seconds or so, but I never made it
into level 10 deep enough to really exercise the machine hard. I think
that the level setting simply put limits on the look-ahead tree
branches. At level 10, it looked as far forward as the algorithms (and
main memory) would allow.
I also seem to recall there was some command you could put into it that
would change the left screen from the view of the chessboard, to a
"debug" view, that showed the evaluation processes involved in the
machine determining its move. It was nicely organized to show a ranked
listing of the best possible moves by its scoring algorithm, and below
that it showed a text-representation of the board, with the machine
making theoretical moves, then scoring the outcome. At the time, it was
simply amazing the computing power that this machine had.
How far we've come, and how much we've lost.
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
4:51 p.m.
--- Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
If it was written in FORTRAN it must have been
kewell.
Apples, Oranges, IBMers, etc. etc. What about HP
versions of chess?
At one time there used to be a world of
shareware/freeware out there, and I'm again drifting
off-topic, some real esoteric stuff (like analyzing
ancient manuscripts/parchments on an early Mac II).
Curious what has been done to catalog all the weird
stuff that's out there, presumably floating around.
The program I mentioned was written for the gov't, so
the author couldn't sell it. IINM (and no I don't
remember the title) it did wind up as freeware...of
sorts methinks.
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Date: Tue, 1
Apr 2008 17:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris M
any thoughts on vintage chess games?
I used one back in the early 70s that was pretty
decent with a nice
display. But you needed a CDC 6000-series system to
run it; it was a
real cycle hog, IIRC.
Wonder if anyone bothered to preserve the game?
It was by-and-large written in CDC FORTRAN. It
originally had its
own PP display driver (CHD); later versions used the
programmable
"T"(on SCOPE 3.3, anyway) DSD screen. 
16 Apr
16 Apr
9:22 a.m.
On Tuesday 15 April 2008 16:51, Chris M wrote:
At one time there used to be a world of
shareware/freeware out there,
Back when I was running a BBS I had piles of that stuff on my system, in the
files sections. I still have a fair amount of that stuff stashed away, if
there's any interest. Much of it was for CP/M and DOS platforms, with a
small scattering of other stuff. I'd eventually intended to extend that to
other platforms, but never did get around to accumulating much of that.
If there's enough interest I can put a list online someplace.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
4:45 p.m.
Apples, Oranges, IBMers, etc. etc. What about HP
versions of chess?
Mildly off-=thread, but there's a mini-chess (5*5 oard, each player has
king, queen, bishop, knight, rook and 5 pawns, no castling, no en passant
capture) for the HP41 calculator (!). I think it meeds a CV (or a C with
3 RAM moudles?) and will print the board on the HP41 thermal printer.
It's hardly a good player, but it's impressive (to me) that it could be
done at all).
-tony
8:33 p.m.
--- Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I vaguely remember the 41 coming in different models
(*C, *CV), so I assume that's what you're referring
to. Pity I didn't buy one back in the day.
Hmm got to see if there's anything available for my
49G. It does sport 2.5 megs of memory after all (or
was it 1.5?).
The instructor who tried to teach us assembler made
mention of, and I can't swear to this, some imbedded
system for which a chess implementation was devised
(in assembler or machine code of course). The coder
ran into a problem of needing 1 more byte after his
first attempt, and alleviated the problem by recoding.
I could swear it was something *small*, but in fact
maybe it was actually some big iron. Can't remember.
Maybe I should e-mail him and find out...
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Apples,
Oranges, IBMers, etc. etc. What about HP
versions of chess?
Mildly off-=thread, but there's a mini-chess (5*5
oard, each player has
king, queen, bishop, knight, rook and 5 pawns, no
castling, no en passant
capture) for the HP41 calculator (!). I think it
meeds a CV (or a C with
3 RAM moudles?) and will print the board on the HP41
thermal printer.
It's hardly a good player, but it's impressive (to
me) that it could be
done at all).
17 Apr
17 Apr
5:45 p.m.
New subject: HP41 (was Chess)
Mildly
off-=thread, but there's a mini-chess (5*5
oard, each player has
king, queen, bishop, knight, rook and 5 pawns, no
castling, no en passant
capture) for the HP41 calculator (!). I think it
meeds a CV (or a C with
3 RAM moudles?) and will print the board on the HP41
thermal printer.
It's hardly a good player, but it's impressive (to
me) that it could be
done at all).
I vaguely remember the 41 coming in different models
(*C, *CV), so I assume that's what you're referring
to. Pity I didn't buy one back in the day.
8:03 p.m.
New subject: HP41 (was Chess)
the gentleman who sold me a pair of NEC APC's kept
what I think was a 28 (28c?) next to his *drafting*
appliance (he was an architect). Whatever the model
was, it had a green nixy tube display (probably common
amongst early HP stuff). I tried to get him to sell me
it, but no dice. He loved the thing too much. He
originally hailed from England by the way.
Having a 41* would be nice I guess, but having a 49G
already would probably render the 41 as a display
piece. And I have yet to plum the depths of it's
capabilities (buggy firmware - the thing locks up for
a short time quite frequently).
No doubt the 41 is a vintage piece though. You could
even probably add later models like the 10s, 48's. I
bought a 10s in 1990, and I doubt it was brand
spanking new then. I wouldn't mind having a 48GX
though. I have dreams of finding one still in the
original package. I think something like that could
fetch upwards of 600$ on ePay.
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18 Apr
18 Apr
5:03 p.m.
New subject: HP41 (was Chess)
the gentleman who sold me a pair of NEC APC's kept
what I think was a 28 (28c?) next to his *drafting*
appliance (he was an architect). Whatever the model
was, it had a green nixy tube display (probably common
Whatever it was, that description does not match the 28C. The 28C is a
pocket mackine that opens like a book with a keyoard in each half. And a
4-line LCD display in the right-hand half. The 28C has the destiction of
being HP's first user RPL machine, and the first machine to do symbollic
(as opposed to purely numerical) operations. IT's a fairly common machine
(as is the 28S, which has moro memory).
No HP calculator ever had a vacuum fluorescent display. And no HP
calculator eeer used nixie tubes. There was one model -- the HP9815 --
which used a gas discharage Panaplex display. Most other older models
(desktop and handheld) used red LEDs. The only machine I can think of
with a green display was the 9100 family, which used a CRT. The digits
were drawn using a 7-segment font, vector, not raster, scanned.
The HP9100 is a very interesting machine what I've rambled on about in
the past...
amongst early HP stuff). I tried to get him to sell
me
it, but no dice. He loved the thing too much. He
originally hailed from England by the way.
Having a 41* would be nice I guess, but having a 49G
already would probably render the 41 as a display
piece. And I have yet to plum the depths of it's
Actually, I disagree. I have a 49G -- one of the worst purchases I ever
made, and the only time I wrote a letter of complaint to HP about one of
their products (and for the record, they never bothered to reply...). I
use it from time to time, but I use my 41s (and for that matter 16C) a
lot more. The 41 has a much wider range of useful peripherals.
capabilities (buggy firmware - the thing locks up for
a short time quite frequently).
No doubt the 41 is a vintage piece though. You could
even probably add later models like the 10s, 48's. I
bought a 10s in 1990, and I doubt it was brand
spanking new then. I wouldn't mind having a 48GX
though. I have dreams of finding one still in the
original package. I think something like that could
fetch upwards of 600$ on ePay.
I don;t see the point of the original box. You;'d lower the vlaue as soon
as you ripped off the shrinkwrap and started to use it, and what the
heck's the point of a calculator you don't use?
If you want a 48GX to use, they're not that rare...
-tony
5:39 p.m.
New subject: HP41 (was Chess)
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I got a 48S on ebay for $35 or so and in my opinion the 48 series is
great. I use it for all my engineering courses (fastest calculations
in the class, everyone else has to fight those stupid TI-89 things).
Although they look kinda nice, there's no reason to have a 48-anything
unless you're going to use it, so just look for used, known-to-work
calculators.
John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
No doubt the
41 is a vintage piece though. You could
even probably add later models like the 10s, 48's. I
bought a 10s in 1990, and I doubt it was brand
spanking new then. I wouldn't mind having a 48GX
though. I have dreams of finding one still in the
original package. I think something like that could
fetch upwards of 600$ on ePay.
I don;t see the point of the original box. You;'d lower the vlaue as soon
as you ripped off the shrinkwrap and started to use it, and what the
heck's the point of a calculator you don't use?
If you want a 48GX to use, they're not that rare...
19 Apr
19 Apr
7:56 a.m.
New subject: HP41 (was Chess)
I've got several HP calculators but my favourit is the HP67 for normal
calculations .
I like of cause the LED display and it's a very handy machine small programs
are no problem and the card reader is integrated.
For solving and plotting graphics I find the HP48 an nice machine, but
classic calculators just have more 'feeling'.
I do have a 'mint' 48GX bought from the dutch marketplace called
'marktplaats' for 30,- euro's with new manuals just lucky I guess.
From the same list I bought my 97 and 91 for 40,- euro
together with a lot
HP41 stuff, that is what keeps things affordable.
But other stuff I bought from epay and sometimes payed to much because of
the love and adiction for vintage calculators and computers and having 'the
maybe this is the lost one ever and I want it feeling' ;-)
Sometimes I buy some stuff on a fleemarket and sell it on epay, nothing
wrong with that I think because it is kepping the hobby affordable.
And of cause there are the 'small' diamonds you get from friends and total
strangers. One of my Compucorps was donated by a insurance salesman who used
it for calculating morgages including the tape with the morgage program, jus
because he heared I was collecting calculators.
Rik
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Floren" <slawmaster at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: HP41 (was Chess)
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
I got a 48S on ebay for $35 or so and in my opinion the 48 series is
great. I use it for all my engineering courses (fastest calculations
in the class, everyone else has to fight those stupid TI-89 things).
Although they look kinda nice, there's no reason to have a 48-anything
unless you're going to use it, so just look for used, known-to-work
calculators.
John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
No doubt
the 41 is a vintage piece though. You could
even probably add later models like the 10s, 48's. I
bought a 10s in 1990, and I doubt it was brand
spanking new then. I wouldn't mind having a 48GX
though. I have dreams of finding one still in the
original package. I think something like that could
fetch upwards of 600$ on ePay.
I don;t see the point of the original box. You;'d lower the vlaue as
soon
as you ripped off the shrinkwrap and started to use it, and what the
heck's the point of a calculator you don't use?
If you want a 48GX to use, they're not that rare...
2:13 p.m.
New subject: HP41 (was Chess)
--- John Floren <slawmaster at gmail.com> wrote:
I got a 48S on ebay for $35 or so and in my opinion
the 48 series is
great. I use it for all my engineering courses
(fastest calculations
in the class, everyone else has to fight those
stupid TI-89 things).
Although they look kinda nice, there's no reason to
have a 48-anything
unless you're going to use it, so just look for
used, known-to-work
calculators.
the 48 series is eminently expandable, as is the
newer 49G+ (takes cflash cards), and I suspect this is
why they're favored amongst certain trades. Arguably
the most supported HP model in history (don't beat me
up too much if I'm wrong). Yeah they built like tanks.
I actually owned one for a bit, can't remember which
model exactly, but returned it cuz it was a slippery
slope using one in certain math classes due to it's
ability to do symbolic math.
I just bloody want one. And I wanna a bloomin' new
one. I don't need an excuse. Nyeh.
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