1 Jun
2016
1 Jun
'16
10:36 a.m.
We have recently had activity on the list discussing AT&T 3b2 related stuff,
then earlier today we have had discussions concerning the SCSI2SD drive
replacement hardware.
I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here:
<http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD>
and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported.
Many years ago, when I was administering 3b2's, I had always remembered those
327 Mb drives were a PITA getting those replaced thru my supply system.
......
Wondering if anyone here is using SCSI2SD on their 3b2's, and if so, what are
your experiences? Hopefully working well?
Jerry
1 Jun
1 Jun
10:52 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:
We have recently had activity on the list discussing
AT&T 3b2 related
stuff, then earlier today we have had discussions concerning the SCSI2SD
drive replacement hardware.
I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here:
<http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD>
and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported.
Many years ago, when I was administering 3b2's, I had always remembered
those 327 Mb drives were a PITA getting those replaced thru my supply
system.
......
Wondering if anyone here is using SCSI2SD on their 3b2's, and if so, what
are your experiences? Hopefully working well?
I have my 3B2/600 running off of a SCSI2SD (from an image taken from my
original dying 327MB Seagate Wren drive) and it runs like a champ. I think
I'm the guy who reported success to the SCSI2SD site for this particular
machine.
We also have our 3B2/600 at the Living Computer Museum running off of one.
I've found the SCSI2SD to be extremely useful in a number of situations.
Most recently I've gotten an HP/Apollo 425T (which demands a SCSI-1 drive
amongst other things) happily running off of one.
- Josh
Jerry
11:03 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote:
I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD,
specifically here:
<http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD>
and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported.
I neither have a AT&T 3B2 nor a SCSI2SD. Sorry. I do however, have
experience with lots of ACARD adapters. The one that's most like the
SCSI2SD is the ARS-2000SUP. That's the 50-pin SCSI/SCSI2 version. It works
great in my older SGIs (Indy, Challenge S, and Indigo), a Quadra 660AV,
Sun Sparc Classic, and I've also tested it in an Amiga 3000 where it also
works fine. I use them with SSDs to push the latency as low as I can go. I
realize the disk throughput is never going to be great just due to the
limitations of fast SCSI2.
http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=249&prod_no=ARS-2…
-Swift
2:08 p.m.
New subject: Acard - WAS::Re: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement
Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the Acard device.
I guess I should extend my question, so, does anyone have an Acard HDD
replacement in their AT&T 3b2?
If so, how is it working out for you?
Jerry
On 06/ 1/16 01:03 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote:
I was reviewing the online documentation for
SCSI2SD, specifically here:
<http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD>
and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported.
I neither have a AT&T 3B2 nor a SCSI2SD. Sorry. I do however, have
experience with lots of ACARD adapters. The one that's most like the
SCSI2SD is the ARS-2000SUP. That's the 50-pin SCSI/SCSI2 version. It works
great in my older SGIs (Indy, Challenge S, and Indigo), a Quadra 660AV,
Sun Sparc Classic, and I've also tested it in an Amiga 3000 where it also
works fine. I use them with SSDs to push the latency as low as I can go. I
realize the disk throughput is never going to be great just due to the
limitations of fast SCSI2.
http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=249&prod_no=ARS-2…
-Swift
12:17 p.m.
On 01/06/2016 18:36, Jerry Kemp wrote:
We have recently had activity on the list discussing
AT&T 3b2 related
stuff, then earlier today we have had discussions concerning the SCSI2SD
drive replacement hardware.
I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here:
Wondering if anyone here is using SCSI2SD on their
3b2's, and if so,
what are your experiences? Hopefully working well?
Not personally (yet) but for a while I've been looking at comments in
the Nekochan forums, thinking about using it on one of my SGIs.
Consensus is that it's rather slow. Not so slow that it's awful on an
Indy (apart maybe from booting), but noticeably slower than people
expect on faster machines. The ACARD ones seem to be faster. Perhaps
it won't matter for older machines.
--
Pete
1:08 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote:
Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart
maybe from booting), but
noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The ACARD ones
seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines.
The Acard device is @250 bucks. It appears that the SCSI2SD is $50-$100
depending who who is selling. I can tell you that the ACARD device is much
faster than the Seagate Barracuda drive I was using before in my R5k Indy.
I did a test using several benchmarks. There wasn't a single metric which
was better on the old drive. The biggest change was in latency. It made a
serious difference using the machine as a desktop. It also worked
outstandingly well as a video capture destination - no dropped frames. I
use a 2.5" 128G Samsung 850 Pro SATA disk internally inside the 3.5"
device.
-Swift
1:53 p.m.
On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote:
The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows:
1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software)
2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests
3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to
(important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it
supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s), it can
support multiple drives on a single board, pretend to be a CD-ROM, etc,
etc, etc.
4) It's considerably cheaper.
It's probably slower than a real drive some instances, but in equally as
many instances that you're going to use something like this, the host
machine isn't going to reach peak throughput anyway.
- Josh
Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart
maybe from booting), but
noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The ACARD ones
seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines.
The Acard device is @250 bucks. It appears that the SCSI2SD is $50-$100
depending who who is selling. I can tell you that the ACARD device is much
faster than the Seagate Barracuda drive I was using before in my R5k Indy.
I did a test using several benchmarks. There wasn't a single metric which
was better on the old drive. The biggest change was in latency. It made a
serious difference using the machine as a desktop. It also worked
outstandingly well as a video capture destination - no dropped frames. I
use a 2.5" 128G Samsung 850 Pro SATA disk internally inside the 3.5"
device.
-Swift
2:29 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Josh Dersch wrote:
The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as
follows:
Heh, I just ordered one. I'll test it vis-a-vis the ACARD device and post
my results here and on Nekochan where I originally posted about the ACARD
adapter.
1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and
software)
Ohhh, nice. I didn't realize that. Very cool.
2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug
reports / feature
requests
That's always a plus, but I doubt I'm going to try it on anything too
spacey. I'll just be my SGIs and the one Amiga 3k.
3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like
any drive
you want to (important for machines that expect to see only certain
drives), it supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and
AS/400s),
I'd probably burst into flame if I touched a LISP machine at this point.
Though, then again, I'm quite certain there are no Gods in the LISP
pantheon. Otherwise I'd be riding a thunderbolt by now, and my college
profs would be with 72 gazelle-eyed virgins. :-P
NOTE TO LIST MEMBERS: THAT was a JOKE!! (remember those?)
it can support multiple drives on a single board,
pretend to be a
CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper.
That's an excellent feature that I'm sure would come in handy, especially
if it can emulate a CDROM with a 2048 block size. That'd be super-helpful
on an SGI, and would probably make the mind-numbing 'inst' operations take
a little less time.
It's probably slower than a real drive some
instances, but in equally as
many instances that you're going to use something like this, the host
machine isn't going to reach peak throughput anyway.
We will see. Lots of folks had the same doubt when I was testing the ACARD
device. They felt that the SATA disk would overwhelm the SCSI2 bus, and
they were right. However, what they were wrong about was that the internal
disk didn't much matter. When I replaced the Samsung 850 Pro with a 5400
RPM laptop hard disk (still far newer/faster than the SCSI disk) the
performance dropped considerably. So, while disk throughput was
comparable, latency was still much lower with the SSD and that had the
most anecdotal "feel" impact, too.
-Swift
4:07 p.m.
On 01/06/2016 23:29, Swift Griggs wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Josh Dersch wrote:
AAT. 2048 bytes is the common CDROM standard, used by PCs and their
ilk, whereas SGIs want 512-byte blocks on CDROMs. Some SGIs/IRIX
versions (eg Indy and later, running IRIX 5.3 or later) will issue a
command to make the CDROM switch to 512-byte blocks instead of their
default 2048. Most modern SCSI CDROMs honour that, but older ones may
have jumpers or PCB links that need to be set.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
it can support multiple drives on a single board,
pretend to be a
CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper.
That's an excellent feature that I'm sure would come in handy, especially
if it can emulate a CDROM with a 2048 block size. That'd be super-helpful
on an SGI, and would probably make the mind-numbing 'inst' operations take
a little less time.
3:37 p.m.
New subject: cdrom block size - WAS::::Re: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement
+1
Most early Sun equipment required 512 block size also.
Not that I am casting doubt, but I am unaware of anything that required 2048
block size for optical devices.
If you have a workstation or server that required 2048 block size for optical
media, please share!
That is the great thing about this list, I learn new stuff, all the time.
Jerry
On 06/ 1/16 06:07 PM, pete wrote:
On 01/06/2016 23:29, Swift Griggs wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Josh Dersch wrote:
AAT. 2048 bytes is the common CDROM standard, used by PCs and their ilk,
whereas SGIs want 512-byte blocks on CDROMs. Some SGIs/IRIX versions (eg Indy
and later, running IRIX 5.3 or later) will issue a command to make the CDROM
switch to 512-byte blocks instead of their default 2048. Most modern SCSI
CDROMs honour that, but older ones may have jumpers or PCB links that need to be
set.
it can support multiple drives on a single board,
pretend to be a
CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper.
That's an excellent feature that I'm sure would come in handy, especially
if it can emulate a CDROM with a 2048 block size. That'd be super-helpful
on an SGI, and would probably make the mind-numbing 'inst' operations take
a little less time.
3:51 p.m.
On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, pete wrote:
AAT. 2048 bytes is the common CDROM standard, used by
PCs and their
ilk, whereas SGIs want 512-byte blocks on CDROMs.
Ah, quite right. Thanks, Pete.
Some SGIs/IRIX versions (eg Indy and later, running
IRIX 5.3 or later)
will issue a command to make the CDROM switch to 512-byte blocks instead
of their default 2048.
Huh... I didn't realize that. I remember using one of those Pioneer
slot-loading SCSI drives to load IRIX at some point and it still had the
jumper as the switching mechanism. I guess I just haven't seen SCSI CDROM
drives that didn't because I only order or fiddle with the ones that do.
Most modern SCSI CDROMs honour that, but older ones
may have jumpers or
PCB links that need to be set.
Does anyone have such a beast and can share a model # ? If they are cheap
enough, I'd replace my current crapola 1X external "ace in the hole" CDROM
with it. My hang-up has always been the block size issue.
-Swift
4:36 p.m.
On 01/06/2016 23:51, Swift Griggs wrote:
Does anyone have such a beast and can share a model #
? If they are cheap
enough, I'd replace my current crapola 1X external "ace in the hole" CDROM
with it. My hang-up has always been the block size issue.
Most Toshibas respond to the command, so pretty much anything later than
an XM3401 - that's a 4x caddy drive with jumpers. XM3601 is also 4x but
with tray instead of caddy, though it still has jumpers for the block
size. I have both of those, and an XM3301 (2x) caddy drive.
O2s use XM5401 (4x), as does my Origin2000. I regularly use an XM5701
(12x) on one of my Indys, an XM6401 (32x) on another and I recently
bought a Toshiba SD-M1401 ex-Sun DVD-ROM drive that is working happily
on the Indy that used to have the XM5701. These are all jumperless for
the block size.
SGI once had special firmware for some of the early supported Toshiba
CDROM drives, but that was only for the benefit of booting a really
ancient miniroot on 4Ds. Sun did the same thing. I believe (but have
never tested) that changing one of the pads on standard Toshiba XM3401
(not SGI/Sun branded) enables the hack. It's in the SGI FAQ. I've
never had any problem with random SCSI CDROMs, but all my SGIs are
Indigos or later, and the few older Sparcstations I've had are happy
with any firmware I tried.
I happen to like Toshibas, but I had an NEC Multispin (3x) that worked,
and others swear by Plextor drives, and I believe Sun also used Hitachis.
--
Pete
4:52 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as
follows:
1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software)
2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests
3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to
(important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it
supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s)
Wait - what? I'd never even thought of that. Has anyone got SCSI2SD
running successfully on AS/400?
If not maybe I need to be the tester...
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
10:19 p.m.
On 6/1/2016 4:52 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
I noticed that one vendor had the following note in
their sale posting
on Ebay.
** Please note
1) The card will be preconfigured for 8 gb storage only.
2) You will not be able to change the firmware as a little modifications
have been done in PCB.
Vendor: floppy_to_usb
Not nice sports fans.
SCSI2SD-50-Pin-SCSI-Hard-to-Micro-Sd-Converter-8-gb-micro-SD-for-Staubli-JC5
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301859438071
Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve
the firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an
open product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open
product, and I think I'll be buying from someone else.
Thanks
Jim
The advantages
of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows:
>
>1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software)
>2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests
>3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to
>(important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it
>supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s)
Wait -
what? I'd never even thought of that. Has anyone got SCSI2SD
running successfully on AS/400? 
10:30 p.m.
On 6/1/2016 10:19 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
On 6/1/2016 4:52 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
I noticed that one vendor had the following note
in their sale posting on Ebay.
** Please note
1) The card will be preconfigured for 8 gb storage only.
2) You will not be able to change the firmware as a little modifications have
been done in PCB.
Vendor: floppy_to_usb
Not nice sports fans.
SCSI2SD-50-Pin-SCSI-Hard-to-Micro-Sd-Converter-8-gb-micro-SD-for-Staubli-JC5
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301859438071
Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the
firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open
product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and I
think I'll be buying from someone else.
Thanks
Jim
That price ($200) is about 3X the going rate.
The main page for SCSI2SD is here:
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD
Scroll down to here:
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD#Purchase to find links
to vendors
Links to firmware updates and tools here:
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD#News
I have no vested interest in SCSI2SD, other than being a very satisfied user.
Don
--
Don North
AK6DN
The
advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows:
>
>1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software)
>2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests
>3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to
>(important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it
>supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s)
Wait -
what? I'd never even thought of that. Has anyone got SCSI2SD
running successfully on AS/400? 
11:49 p.m.
On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:19 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the
firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open
product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and
I think I'll be buying from someone else.
The US seller inertialcomputing has several listings from $66 to $80
currently, depending on what size SD card is included:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191849269608
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191881269696
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191839174447
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191760360045
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191845395864
The photos in the items listings show a SCSI2SD V5.0a PCB and the
seller claims to have worked in direct collaboration with its designer
and creator, Michael McMaster.
I haven't bought one of those myself yet, although I have been considering it.
2 Jun
2 Jun
6:46 a.m.
On 2016-06-02 2:49 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:19 PM, jwsmobile <jws at
jwsss.com> wrote:
Big +1 to inertialcomputing!
That's where I bought mine. I just checked the correspondence about it
and I notice that the seller was very accommodating and helpful.
--Toby
Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the
firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open
product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and
I think I'll be buying from someone else.
The US seller inertialcomputing has several listings from $66 to $80
currently, depending on what size SD card is included:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191849269608
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191881269696
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191839174447
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191760360045
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191845395864
The photos in the items listings show a SCSI2SD V5.0a PCB and the
seller claims to have worked in direct collaboration with its designer
and creator, Michael McMaster.
I haven't bought one of those myself yet, although I have been considering it.
8:37 a.m.
On Jun 2, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Greg Stark <stark at
mit.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
Big +1 to inertialcomputing!
Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I
would have to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside.
--
greg From the SCSI2SD site.
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12…
Lists UK and EU currencies.
Jerry
4 Jun
4 Jun
8:47 p.m.
It's not the currency that matters though, but where they ship from. I'm
guessing by the ?3.25 shipping that they're probably doing from somewhere
in the EU but I don't see offhand where they say that.
On 2 Jun 2016 16:38, "Jerry Weiss" <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
From the SCSI2SD site.
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12…
Lists UK and EU currencies.
Jerry
On Jun 2, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Greg Stark <stark
at mit.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:
Big +1 to
inertialcomputing!
Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I
would have to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside.
--
greg 
2 Jun
2 Jun
8:53 a.m.
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12…
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Greg Stark
Sent: 02 June 2016 15:21
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com
Subject: Re: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:
Big +1 to inertialcomputing!
Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I would have
to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside.
--
greg
7:25 a.m.
On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Toby Thain wrote:
Big +1 to inertialcomputing! That's where I bought
mine. I just checked
the correspondence about it and I notice that the seller was very
accommodating and helpful.
I just got one yesterday. It should arrive by Monday. I had a bunch of
special instructions for shipping and the cat from Interialcomputing was
cool about it, and responded right away.
I'll test it against the ACARD unit using my fastest Indy (R5k/180). I
also own an Adaptec AHA-2940. It's a fast-scsi2 PCI adapter and is
probably one of the most well supported SCSI adapters I've known. It has a
50-pin internal adapter I can connect to the SCSI2SD unit. This way, I can
benchmark using BSD & Linux, too with all kinds of fancy modes,
schedulers, filesystems, and benchmarking tools. I'm partial to 'fio' and
'iozone' for benchmarking, but I often also use 'dbench' to hammer
concurrency tests. Of course, it won't be very fair from the standpoint
that I'll be using a SanDisk UHS class-10/u3 card in the SCSI2SD versus a
Samsung 850 Pro SATA SSD in the ACARD ARS-2000SUP. It should be an easy
sweep for the ACARD, but we'll see.
I'll blog it up and post it once I'm done.
-Swift
10:13 a.m.
Any idea which
vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the
firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open
product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and
I think I'll be buying from someone else.
The US seller inertialcomputing has several listings from $66 to $80
currently, depending on what size SD card is included:
1 Jun
1 Jun
2:05 p.m.
Absolutely.
If I had an IRIX box right now, it would be spinning rust or an SSD. One day I
hope to have a Crimson and a Fuel.
Any 3b2 is going to be significantly slower.
I still remember when I had my first 600G (not GR) that got upgraded to (3) 327
Mb drives. I was very excited that I had *just shy* of 1 Gig of hard disk
storage space available.
Very different times.
Jerry
On 06/ 1/16 02:17 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
Not personally (yet) but for a while I've been looking at comments in the
Nekochan forums, thinking about using it on one of my SGIs. Consensus is that
it's rather slow. Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart maybe from
booting), but noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The
ACARD ones seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines.
2:26 p.m.
On 01/06/2016 22:05, Jerry Kemp wrote:
I still remember when I had my first 600G (not GR)
that got upgraded to
(3) 327 Mb drives. I was very excited that I had *just shy* of 1 Gig of
hard disk storage space available.
When I bought my SGI Indy, I swallowed hard and specced a 1GB drive for
it, because I'd had experience of 500MB drives filling up. Not too long
after that I splashed out on one of those crazy new-fangled CD writers
and then realised I'd need another 1GB drive to build the images on :-(
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
2905
days inactive
2909
days old
24 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
ak6dn＠mindspring.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
derschjo＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
jsw＠ieee.org -
jws＠jwsss.com -
other＠oryx.us -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
stark＠mit.edu -
swiftgriggs＠gmail.com -
tmfdmike＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au