20 Mar
2002
20 Mar
'02
5:53 a.m.
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing to change the mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that. This one I
am not sure how to do off the top of my head, but would think it pretty
straightforward. Comments?
2) WRT the archives at www.classiccmp.org THAT is a project I have fallen
far behind in. When I moved the list from the old ISP to the new ISP (me in
both cases, long story)... something broke in getting emails from the list
to the archive mechanism. I noticed this maybe a month ago, and when I
started digging into it I realized it was time for a change - the archives
there are not searchable and that just isn't acceptable. So - I have been
looking for software to HTML'ize the mailing list that allows searching as
well. I really need suggestions here as my initial searches came up less
than satisfactory. The archives are currently using hypermail. My criteria
is something that is FreeBSD and Sendmail friendly, and allows searching the
archives OR viewing them by thread. I don't mind if the emails need to get
stored in a database, but if they do, mysql must be the database used (picky
aren't I). The only package I found had statements all over it to the effect
that "this package will no longer be supported by the author". I did notice
the list archives for netsaint that are stored at sourceforge look REALLY
nice, and do allow searching, but didn't see a good way to follow threads. I
would greatly appreciate it if anyone can point me to mail list archives
that work well (for the user) and look nice (or to software for unix that
does the same). Please send these suggestions to me off-list at
jwest(a)classiccmp.org
3) This isn't really important - just random "what if" thinking out loud -
I
was considering moving the mailing list and mail list archives off to a
separate machine that does nothing but classiccmp. This is being considered
for logistics reasons, not for horsepower/load reasons. I have all the
spare components (cpu, memory, drives, etc) but no spare rackmount chassis.
I can just order a rackmount chassis under my company which I'm perfectly
willing to do, but was wondering if anyone had a rackmount chassis just
laying around that they didn't need and would donate to the cause. The key
criteria - EIA units (space!). I would strongly prefer a 1U (1 EIA unit, or
1.75 inches) tall unit. We charge on rackspace by the inch, so I want the
machine to take as little space as possible so I can obviously sell the
rackspace to other paying customers. I would consider a 2U (2.5 inches) tall
unit (which I already have spare) as a fall-back plan, but definitely
nothing taller than that. Anyone have a spare laying around? If so, please
contact me OFF LIST at jwest(a)classiccmp.org
Regards,
Jay West
20 Mar
20 Mar
6:29 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of
HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
No I would filter the email -- a few people may for what ever reason may
be able
to only send in HTML.
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
6:49 a.m.
--- Jay West <jwest(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing
to change the
mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content.
In theory, I support this, but if it's possible to filter them down
to their textual content on the way through, that might be good, also.
I know that some people (very few) have technological impediments that
force them into HTML (Outlook, etc., I think).
One thing that might be nice, given my own recent battles with spam,
is to search for certain constructions in HTML messages and give them
"extra attention" - I've seen some spam go by with XBODY/BODY, not
BODY/BODY tags, for example. It seems to mess with my ability to
forward the contents to spamcop and the FTC. I have to view source
and cut and paste. :-P Also, I've seen this use of "_blank" in
the first tag of the message that also goes hand-in-hand with messages
that confuse my browser when I want to do anything other than view
the message. I don't think these are simple clever tricks; from what
I've seen in the way they are treated by my browser, they are intentional
abuses of loopholes in HTML implementation to provide better spread
of the spam.
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of
making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that...
I take it the "[OL]" would be automatically inserted by some filter
that noticed that the sender was _not_ on the subscription list, yes?
I don't see how non-subscribers would know to put the "[OL]" there
before posting. If it's put there by you for our benefit, then I
can see the use of it - we can easily filter for it and either discard
it straight out, or shunt it to a kill buffer for inspection.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
6:54 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing to change the mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
Sounds good!
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that. This one I
am not sure how to do off the top of my head, but would think it pretty
straightforward. Comments?
I like that idea. Someone else mentioned that in another email, too.
--
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
7:13 a.m.
I've noticed that comments made years back, and more recently, on the list,
appear in various searches I've run on GOOGLE. This certainly is a place
where the email addresses of the list and the parties appearing in the post
are accessible. What can be done to put a stop to that?
Also, the fact that these items come up in searches certainly makes it
important that the subject line be the actual subject of the post. There have
been plenty of posts with a title of (just as an example) "MV2000 PSU" that
are 20 posts down the road from the last even remotely related item. If every
post to the list with that title produces a hit for the search engines looking
for MV2000, I'd bet they get a lot of spambot fodder from that. What's more,
if you want your posts to be locatable by the search engines, it certainly
doesn't help that the discussion topic wanders under a completely irrelvant
title.
Perhaps the solution would be to purge the email addresses before items are
posted to the list.
The HTML filter would certainly be a good idea. Once people realize their
HTML posts don't find their way to distribution, they'll take the 1 second to
turn that feature off.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay West" <jwest(a)classiccmp.org>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 9:53 AM
Subject: list changes & RFC on archives & rack chassis
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing
to change the mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that. This one I
am not sure how to do off the top of my head, but would think it pretty
straightforward. Comments?
2) WRT the archives at www.classiccmp.org THAT is a project I have fallen
far behind in. When I moved the list from the old ISP to the new ISP (me in
both cases, long story)... something broke in getting emails from the list
to the archive mechanism. I noticed this maybe a month ago, and when I
started digging into it I realized it was time for a change - the archives
there are not searchable and that just isn't acceptable. So - I have been
looking for software to HTML'ize the mailing list that allows searching as
well. I really need suggestions here as my initial searches came up less
than satisfactory. The archives are currently using hypermail. My criteria
is something that is FreeBSD and Sendmail friendly, and allows searching the
archives OR viewing them by thread. I don't mind if the emails need to get
stored in a database, but if they do, mysql must be the database used (picky
aren't I). The only package I found had statements all over it to the effect
that "this package will no longer be supported by the author". I did notice
the list archives for netsaint that are stored at sourceforge look REALLY
nice, and do allow searching, but didn't see a good way to follow threads. I
would greatly appreciate it if anyone can point me to mail list archives
that work well (for the user) and look nice (or to software for unix that
does the same). Please send these suggestions to me off-list at
jwest(a)classiccmp.org
3) This isn't really important - just random "what if" thinking out loud -
I
was considering moving the mailing list and mail list archives off to a
separate machine that does nothing but classiccmp. This is being considered
for logistics reasons, not for horsepower/load reasons. I have all the
spare components (cpu, memory, drives, etc) but no spare rackmount chassis.
I can just order a rackmount chassis under my company which I'm perfectly
willing to do, but was wondering if anyone had a rackmount chassis just
laying around that they didn't need and would donate to the cause. The key
criteria - EIA units (space!). I would strongly prefer a 1U (1 EIA unit, or
1.75 inches) tall unit. We charge on rackspace by the inch, so I want the
machine to take as little space as possible so I can obviously sell the
rackspace to other paying customers. I would consider a 2U (2.5 inches) tall
unit (which I already have spare) as a fall-back plan, but definitely
nothing taller than that. Anyone have a spare laying around? If so, please
contact me OFF LIST at jwest(a)classiccmp.org
Regards,
Jay West
7:38 a.m.
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Also, the fact that these items come up in searches
certainly makes it
important that the subject line be the actual subject of the post. There have
been plenty of posts with a title of (just as an example) "MV2000 PSU" that
are 20 posts down the road from the last even remotely related item. If every
post to the list with that title produces a hit for the search engines looking
for MV2000, I'd bet they get a lot of spambot fodder from that. What's more,
if you want your posts to be locatable by the search engines, it certainly
doesn't help that the discussion topic wanders under a completely irrelvant
title.
Such as a search for "rack chassis"??
It is amusing to hear complaints about failure to update subject line
under an unupdated subject line.
The HTML filter would certainly be a good idea. Once
people realize their
HTML posts don't find their way to distribution, they'll take the 1 second to
turn that feature off.
I like it, and I HATE HTML mail, BUT, . . .
the majority of people sending HTML with Outhouse, etc. can NOT turn that
feature off in 1 second, because
1) they don't know how
2) they don't know what HTML IS
3) they are in denial - "I looked at it on MY screen, and it IS nothing
but text!; it's already the simplest, easiest to read font that I have,
should I switch to a lighter colored background?"
I assume that the [OL] tag would be automatically generated. Otherwise
you would have a 0% compliance, since the only people who would both know
about the requirement and be willing to comply would be those who ARE on
the list.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:10 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 10:38:20AM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
I like it, and I HATE HTML mail, BUT, . . .
the majority of people sending HTML with Outhouse, etc. can NOT turn that
feature off in 1 second, because
1) they don't know how
2) they don't know what HTML IS
3) they are in denial - "I looked at it on MY screen, and it IS nothing
but text!; it's already the simplest, easiest to read font that I have,
should I switch to a lighter colored background?"
And that logic might apply on other lists, but isn't this one about
classic computers? I know html didn't exist when many of these beasts
were made, but anyone geeky enough to play with such toys still should
be educable enough to get html turned off.
-kb
7:40 a.m.
on 3/20/02 10:53 AM, Jay West at jwest(a)classiccmp.org wrote:
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing
to change the mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
I think that is a very good idea, but the sender should be made aware of
exactly why their message was rejected.
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of
making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that. This one I
am not sure how to do off the top of my head, but would think it pretty
straightforward. Comments?
I think that's also a very good idea.
--
Owen Robertson
7:56 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing
to change the mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
Jerome Fine replies:
My only comment is that since the list seems fairly stable right now,
why not leave A) until later? I agree that SPAM is more likely
to contain HTML, but I suspect SPAM is still so rare in any case
and being able to filter it off via B) below should be more than
sufficient. Again I base this on the S/N ratio of comments on
SPAM to actual SPAM. Even these "List Changes" posts far
exceed actual SPAM - so if ever there is a SPAM that has
NO comments, then I might be prepared to agree actual
SPAM is a problem.
OR - if it is just as easy, why not add the characters [HTML] or
just [HT] to the front of those messages.
However, if you (i.e. Jay) decides to prohibit messages with HTML,
then I suggest that you do not tell the sender. An ON-list member
will quickly notice that their messages are NOT being sent and
stop using HTML.
And my final suggestion is that Jay decides - just as I have been
saying before.
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of
making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that. This one I
am not sure how to do off the top of my head, but would think it pretty
straightforward. Comments?
While I think I might have been the first to suggest [OL] be added at the
FRONT of the Subject line, I must admit that the idea came from a
list I receive which adds 9 characters at the beginning (including the []
characters). This is a yahoo based list, so they might have some special
software that is not widely available.
One aspect that will not be needed is a check to see if the message
is a reply - in theory replies will only come from list subscribers.
So, I STRONGLY support adding [OL] at the FRONT of the Subject
Line for posts that are off-list in origin. And suggest nothing else be
done for now.
Except - that Jay decides.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
1:40 p.m.
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4:24 p.m.
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Jay West wrote:
1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing
to change the mailing
list settings....
A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I think
this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML posts here
anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some form of HTML, so
this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think it would make the
very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
I like it.
However. It ain't enough.
I agree with the rest that it would be better if our email addresses
weren't so obvious in the archives.
I also don't think I like the instructions at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/majordomo-help.txt
in Section V. on how to harvest a complete contact list.
B) I also like the 'self-policing' idea of
making posts to the list from
non-subscribers get a subject tag of [OL] or something like that. This one I
am not sure how to do off the top of my head, but would think it pretty
straightforward. Comments?
I'm OK with that. I might also suggest an alternative; put a link on
the website to a dedicated "offers" address that propagates immediately
to the web-page. That would exempt prospective donors from whatever
filtering we do on the list. Interested members could check that page.
2) WRT the archives at www.classiccmp.org
My favorite list software is ezmlm, but it's qmail-only (barf). As I
said last week, I'll do anything I can to help with any solution you
choose.
Doc
P.S. -- I have a 4U Aspen Alpine you can have. 275mHz 21064 Alpha.
Big, noisy bastard.
Doc
22 Mar
22 Mar
4:34 p.m.
I've been lurking on the list subject, but decided to chime in...
On Wednesday 20 March 2002 20:24, you wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Jay West wrote:
> 1) Ok, here are the two things I was considering doing to change the
> mailing list settings....
>
> A) Reject posts to the list which contain any kind of HTML content. I
> think this would be fairly unobtrusive - most people don't want HTML
> posts here anyways. And - I would bet that most all SPAM contains some
> form of HTML, so this might not get rid of all SPAM forever, but I think
> it would make the very few that come here dwindle to even less. Comments?
<<<CHOP>>>
I think I like the idea of filtering out HTML tags (conversion to plaintext a
la w3c/lynx, filter software available on freshmeat.net) and automatically
prefixing "[OL]" the subject lines of non-subscribers' emails with
"[OL]" the
best, but it has been way too long since I've managed a list that allowed any
sort of automatic non-owner posts.
However...
Doc
P.S. -- I have a 4U Aspen Alpine you can have. 275mHz 21064 Alpha.
Big, noisy bastard.
Doc
This grabbed my interest. Is it an SRM-console Alpha? The only Alpha I own
is an ARC-console machine, which makes it rather undesirable. If Jay doesn't
want it, could I chime in? :) (I really like big, noisy bas^H^H^Hmachines!)
Sincerely,
Chris.
--
Chris Craft, NOC Meister/Postmaster
SpringSips.com
ccraft(a)springsips.com
(970)871-0913 x 24
8157
days inactive
8161
days old
12 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
ccraft＠springsips.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
fernande＠internet1.net -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
kentborg＠borg.org -
univac2＠earthlink.net