28 Apr
2019
28 Apr
'19
9:24 a.m.
All ?
??????????????? Over the last few months, I?ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a
SCSI interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, I was able
to get an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. It?s been a great
learning process getting this up and running. It?s a Q18 system, so memory is limited and
I don?t think able to run BSD (I?m running RT-11 right now).
So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to access
any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve read about telnetting to port 80)?
I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I
don?t really know where to start with that.
??????????????? If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it.
??????????????? Thanks!
Rich
--
Rich Cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
28 Apr
28 Apr
4:24 p.m.
On April 28, 2019 at 11:24 AM Richard Cini via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So, for playing around, what can I practically do with
this? Is it even possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve
read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used
that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know where to start with that.
??????????????? If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it.
Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running?
https://lynx.browser.org/
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org
4:44 p.m.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 5:24 PM Will Cooke via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> If anyone has
any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate
it.
Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running?
https://lynx.browser.org/
Text only without crypto might be possible. However, with the hard limit of
64k+64k, even with overlays, is going to be a heavy lift.
Warner
On April 28, 2019 at 11:24 AM Richard Cini via
cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So, for playing around, what can I practically do
with this? Is it even
possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for
sure; I?ve
read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is
FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know
where to start with that.
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not
when there is nothing
left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de
Saint-Exupery
"The names of global variables should start with // " --
https://isocpp.org
10:34 p.m.
Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser
running?
I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write,
parse and display.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Complete indifference to suffering is our duty. -- V. I. Lenin -------------
29 Apr
29 Apr
12:20 a.m.
On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
That might be true, but what sites still provide that service.
A web novel app might work. 5K of REAL text, 5Meg of ads,pop ups and
java script. :(
Ben.
Maybe it would
be possible to get a text only browser running?
I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write,
parse and display.
1:49 a.m.
It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated:
On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
wrote:
That might be true, but what sites still provide that service.
There are quite a few active gopher sites out there. You can start with:
gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/world
but wait! There's more!
gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/fun/xkcd
gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/feeds/latest
gopher://gopher.altexxanet.org/1/textfiles.com
gopher://1436.ninja/1/Project_Gutenberg_in_Gopherspace
gopher://hngopher.com/
gopher://sdf.org/1/users/julienxx/Lobste.rs
and some phlogs (gopher blogs):
gopher://gopher.black/1/moku-pona
gopher://i-logout.cz/1/en/bongusta/
(although there's some overlap between these two).
-spc
Maybe it
would be possible to get a text only browser running?
I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write,
parse and display.
4:50 a.m.
On 04/29/2019 03:20 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
wrote:
That might be true, but what sites still provide that service.
A web novel app might work. 5K of REAL text, 5Meg of ads,pop ups and
java script. :(
Ben.
With a PDP-11/23 and full boat ram (18bit) you can run more than RT-11
and something like V6 unix or maybe
RSX might be a better choice for anything networking.? An OS that
supports swapping and maybe virtual memory
would help even at the expense of speed.? Networking does require some
level of multitasking as well so RT-11/FB
is likely more useful than vanilla RT.
Allison
Maybe it
would be possible to get a text only browser running?
I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write,
parse and display.
5:25 a.m.
Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser
running?
I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write,
parse and display.
8:38 a.m.
I?ll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. If not I?ll
install it and see how it goes. Great idea!
Rich
Get Outlook for iOS
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:25 AM -0400, "Cameron Kaiser via cctalk" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
That might be true, but what sites still provide that service.
Funny you should ask.
gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- You can't fake the funk. -- Arnold X. Perkins ------------------------------
Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser
running?
I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write,
parse and display.
5:29 p.m.
I'll have to see if I have the Gopher client
installed on my disk image.
If not I'll install it and see how it goes. Great idea!
The nice thing about Gopher is that even if you don't, the protocol is
so trivial to speak and parse menus that you could probably bang a simple
client out in an afternoon or less.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs. -- Bruce Johnson --------
5:37 p.m.
Ok, that's good to know. Thanks.
?On 4/29/19, 8:29 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk"
<cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I'll have to see if I have the Gopher client
installed on my disk image.
If not I'll install it and see how it goes. Great idea!
The nice thing about Gopher is that even if you don't, the protocol is
so trivial to speak and parse menus that you could probably bang a simple
client out in an afternoon or less.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs. -- Bruce Johnson --------
5:40 p.m.
I've been thinking it would be neat (strange?) to have HTTP client/server running over
DECnet instead of TCP. Object number would be 80, of course.
On Ultrix it seems this should be quite easy, given that it has "stream mode"
DECnet sockets that act very much like TCP streams.
paul
5:47 p.m.
On Apr 29, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've been thinking it would be neat (strange?) to have HTTP client/server running
over DECnet instead of TCP. Object number would be 80, of course.
On Ultrix it seems this should be quite easy, given that it has "stream mode"
DECnet sockets that act very much like TCP streams.
I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory
could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS.
Zane
6:05 p.m.
On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports
running over
DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS.
I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do.
But how does a web server run over DECnet?
I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that
can carry HTTP.
But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a
gateway to TCP/IP.
#confused #eagerToLearn
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
7:19 p.m.
If you get 2.11BSD up and going (which would require a CPU upgrade, it
won't run on the F11, needs split I+D), you can run a *native* IRC client!
One of the guys on #vc has written a minimalist IRC client that compiles
and runs on 2.11BSD on the PDP-11.
AFAIK, there was no TCP/IP stack for the BSDs that will run on the F11.
Anyone know of one?
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:05 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS
supports running over
DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS.
I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do.
But how does a web server run over DECnet?
I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that
can carry HTTP.
But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a
gateway to TCP/IP.
#confused #eagerToLearn
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
30 Apr
30 Apr
4:22 a.m.
On 4/29/19 10:19 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
If you get 2.11BSD up and going (which would require a
CPU upgrade, it
won't run on the F11, needs split I+D), you can run a *native* IRC client!
One of the guys on #vc has written a minimalist IRC client that compiles
and runs on 2.11BSD on the PDP-11.
AFAIK, there was no TCP/IP stack for the BSDs that will run on the F11.
Anyone know of one?
What about Ultrix-11? I know it supports the 11/23 and it has
TCP/IP. Whether it has both simultaneously I don't remember.
bill
6:25 a.m.
On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create
one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine
that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something
TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them,
which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An
alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP
header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets.
paul
I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS
supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS.
I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do.
But how does a web server run over DECnet?
I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP.
But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to
TCP/IP. 
6:50 a.m.
I apologize if this has been mentioned.?
http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Yes.? What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create
one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets.? The protocol would work just fine
that way.? You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something
TCP doesn't have (a major omission).? The simplest is to pay no attention to them,
which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do.? An
alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP
header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets.
??? paul
I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS
supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS.
I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do.
But how does a web server run over DECnet?
I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP.
But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to
TCP/IP. 
7:51 a.m.
On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
DECnet-Ultrix SOCK_STREAM sockets completely ignore message boundaries on both input and
output. Early on we ran X-windows over DECnet just by changing the socket address family
and the connect/accept logic. Very early on we had to test with SOCK_STREAM since DECnet
was the first (and only?) protocol to make use of SOCK_SEQPACKET sockets and there was a
crash lurking in the 4.2BSD kernel socket code for such sockets.
John.
On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create
one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine
that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something
TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them,
which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An
alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP
header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets.
paul
I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS
supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS.
I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do.
But how does a web server run over DECnet?
I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP.
But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to
TCP/IP. 
29 Apr
29 Apr
7:43 a.m.
There is a TCP/IP stack available for RT-11, although I've never tried
it. It apparently works with both DEQNA and DELQA cards, and I suspect
you've got one or the other in your 11/23.
http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php
It is possible, but also very painful, to view websites using the telnet
client "GET / HTTP/1.1" followed by two returns should give you a page.
I think it's more fun to do the opposite. My PDP-11/73 (in a 11/23+
chassis) is accessible via the web, when it's powered up.
http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk
https://web.archive.org/web/20190420150036/http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk/
So there's plenty of room to have fun :)
Aaron
Richard Cini via cctalk writes:
All ?
Over the last few months, I?ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a SCSI
interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, I was able to get
an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. It?s been a great learning
process getting this up and running. It?s a Q18 system, so memory is limited and I don?t
think able to run BSD (I?m running RT-11 right now).
So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to
access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve read about telnetting to port
80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup),
but I don?t really know where to start with that.
If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it.
Thanks!
Rich
--
Aaron Jackson - M6PIU
Researcher at University of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk/
8 a.m.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 6:14 PM Richard Cini via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So, for playing around, what can I practically do with
this? Is it even
possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve
read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is
FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know
where to start with that.
If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it.
So, having just gone through some of this with my TeleVideo stuff, my
suggestion is to do a bit of work on both the client (PDP-11) and something
a bit faster, which can handle encryption etc.
I wrote a couple of simple web services and some Z80 code (obviously your
PDP-11 code will be a bit different but with a similar concept), to parse
the HTML on something using a web service (I used an apache CGI script to
make it simple), and send the parsed results to the client.
It's not interactive, but it seemed like the most elegant solution to the
problem.
If you want to see my code, check out "cgi/tvi-lynx.pl" and
"almmmost/z80/LYNXGET.ZASM":
https://github.com/vax11/almmmost
Pat
1824
days inactive
1826
days old
20 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
aaron＠aaronsplace.co.uk -
abacos_98＠yahoo.com -
allisonportable＠gmail.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bill.gunshannon＠hotmail.com -
cctalk＠gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
imp＠bsdimp.com -
john＠forecast.name -
pat＠vax11.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
rich.cini＠verizon.net -
spc＠conman.org -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
systems.glitch＠gmail.com -
wrcooke＠wrcooke.net