13 Feb
2006
13 Feb
'06
6:41 a.m.
Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any
real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial!
Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring
that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions
(LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work.
I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring
PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44
more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is,
of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ...
I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear
what approach you are thinking of, Don.
Hmm, you could do it like I did as add-on to SIMH. Hardware
with some intelligence reads the front panel and translates the
switches to messages in ODT syntax which are send to the 11/44
monitor program ...
- Henk, PA8PDP.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North
Sent: vrijdag 10 februari 2006 21:07
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel
Actually I was thinking of making a replacement/alternate
front panel for my 11/44 using the 11/74 panel.
Add real blinking lights/switches connected up to the real
UNIBUS/memorybus.
The 11/44 panel is *way* too spartan looking, and the 11/74
panel would fit just perfectly on the front of the box.
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13 Feb
13 Feb
7:52 a.m.
Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any
real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial!
Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring
that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions
(LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work.
I wondered about wiring the panel to the 8085 console processor, and
re-writing that firmware to take commands from the panel switches, not
from the serial port.
But it's not something I am likely to work on any time soon...
-tony
14 Feb
14 Feb
10:53 p.m.
Gooijen, Henk wrote:
Without thinking much about it, I'd say that
mounting any
real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial!
Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring
that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions
(LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work.
I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring
PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44
more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is,
of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ...
I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear
what approach you are thinking of, Don.
Well, what I thought about was a simple little dual-width UNIBUS card
(MUD slot
and 11/44 extended MUD compatible for the extra phys address lines) that
would
read-only buffer the UNIBUS address/data/control lines and send them to
the display
board (either parallel or multiplexed, undecided).
The display board would be run by a PIC micro (I have lots of experience
with these)
that would intercept the 11/44 console serial port lines and would
generate all the
appropriate exam/dep/etc commands to mimic the switch commands. The PIC
would
also run all the display lites, selecting either real-time UNIBUS A/D
display, or the
manual results obtained from running commands.
I would use my 11/74 panel for the display bezel (no destructive changes
of course)
just to provide some extra atmosphere.
There is no ETA on this right now, got other things to do first...
Hmm, you could do it like I did as add-on to SIMH.
Hardware
with some intelligence reads the front panel and translates the
switches to messages in ODT syntax which are send to the 11/44
monitor program ...
- Henk, PA8PDP.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North
Sent: vrijdag 10 februari 2006 21:07
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel
Actually I was thinking of making a replacement/alternate
front panel for my 11/44 using the 11/74 panel.
Add real blinking lights/switches connected up to the real
UNIBUS/memorybus.
The 11/44 panel is *way* too spartan looking, and the 11/74
panel would fit just perfectly on the front of the box.
22 Feb
22 Feb
10:23 p.m.
On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 15:41 +0100, Gooijen, Henk wrote:
Without thinking much about it, I'd say that
mounting any
real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial!
Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring
that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions
(LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work.
Not too much. I've got the basics worked out for any Unibus machine.
It won't be hard to adapt the approach to Qbus machines as well (but I'm
not up on Qbus at the moment). It should give you most (if not all) of
the capabilities of a "real" front panel
I guess there are more people on the list who have a
boring
PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44
more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is,
of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ...
I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear
what approach you are thinking of, Don.
The approach I'm taking is to add an SPC board and then cables (ribbon)
over to switches and lights. Completely undo-able.
Hmm, you could do it like I did as add-on to SIMH. Hardware
with some intelligence reads the front panel and translates the
switches to messages in ODT syntax which are send to the 11/44
monitor program ...
That sounds like the *really* hard way to do it!
--
TTFN - Guy
10:46 p.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 15:41 +0100, Gooijen, Henk
wrote:
The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS only. This will
work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines,
since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory.
For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory
slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA
lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would
need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle
(ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide
for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC
designed for.
On the other hand, writing a bit of C-code for a PIC processor that
handles the console switches and talks to the ASCII console via RS232 is
a piece of cake.
--Don
Without thinking much about it, I'd say that
mounting any
real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial!
Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring
that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions
(LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work
Not too much. I've got the basics worked out for any Unibus machine.
It won't be hard to adapt the approach to Qbus machines as well (but I'm
not up on Qbus at the moment). It should give you most (if not all) of
the capabilities of a "real" front panel
I guess there are more people on the list who
have a boring
PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44
more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is,
of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ...
I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear
what approach you are thinking of, Don.
The approach I'm taking is to add an SPC board and then cables (ribbon)
over to switches and lights. Completely undo-able.
23 Feb
23 Feb
1:07 a.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
On 2/23/06, Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com> wrote:
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory
slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA
lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would
need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle
(ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide
for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC
designed for.
This is what I term the "Computer Scientist's" solution.
On the other hand, writing a bit of C-code for a PIC processor that
handles the console switches and talks to the ASCII console via RS232 is
a piece of cake.
This OTOH is an "Engineer's" solution.
Conclude what you like. :-)
1:54 p.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS
only. This will
work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines,
since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory.
For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory
slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA
lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would
need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle
AFAIK there are no 22 bit DAM devices on the Unibus. The processor
(either the MMU or the Unibus Map) always drives the memory address lines
-- DMA addresses from the Unibus are translated (via the Unibus Map) to
the correct 22 bit address for memory
I don't think even an 18 bit could work on a 11/44. You could use DMA
cycles to access memory, but since your (18 bit) address would go through
the Unibus Map, you'd not actually know where you were accessing.
-tony
24 Feb
24 Feb
9:21 a.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
Now that the MEM11A boards are back, I'll be getting a bit bolder in
doing board projects. The "Unibus Analyzer" board will probably go out
next week for prototypes (layout is all done, just contemplating if I
should make one change).
I've also pretty much blocked out a blinken lights & switches project
for non-blinken lights unibus 11's. Now the problem will be can I get
it all to fit. It's a two board solution: SPC card "in the box" and the
actual switches & lights mounted somewhere outside. At this point it
looks like it'll have all of the functions of a "standard" blinken
lights panel. It'll even be able to do 22 bit addressing (through
"magic"). :-) The only question is that since it'll be doing some
non-standard stuff (not violations of unibus, just things not normally
done) I have to test out a few things to see if what I'm thinking
actually works.
--
TTFN - Guy
11:51 a.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
Don North wrote:
The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS only. This will
work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines,
since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory.
For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory
slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA
lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would
need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle
(ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide
for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC
designed for.
You scared me there for a second. There are no 22 bit unibus dma
devices, right? only 18 address bits on unibus, right? even on an
11/44, right?
[sorry I'm behind - I was out of town]
-brad
12:26 p.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
Brad Parker wrote:
Don North wrote:
That is correct UNIBUS I/O is 18b only, even on all the VAXes that used
UNIBUS. There is no such thing as 22b UNIBUS DMA; sorry to give that
impression. I was just thinking out loud :-)
Besides UNIBUS proper (ie, the cable, or the in/out slots of a UNIBUS
backplane) systems also implemented SPC slots (UNIBUS + other stuff) but
these are 18b only as well.
There are also MUD (Modified UNIBUS Device) slots which are typically
used by non-DMA memory cards. These are only 18b as well.
For 22b memory support, the 11/44 (and 11/24 iirc) implemented four EUD
(Extended UNIBUS Device) slots that are specific for memory cards only
(ie, the MS11-PB 1MB memory card). These provide the extra 4b from the
UNIBUS map to allow a full 22b physcial memory address.
QBUS was originally 18b only as well, but was extended to Q22 to solve
this problem in a much more reasonable way (the UNIBUS map was/is a big
hack, but probably the only reasonable approach given the number of
preexisting 18b interfaces at the time of the 11/70s design).
If Guy really can implement a 22b examine/deposit physical memory in a
pure SPC slot kudos to him. The only way I can think of possibly doing
it (thinking out loud again :-) ) is to steal a UNIBUS map entry and on
each exam/deposit set it up correctly to map the 18b unibus address to
the desired 22b address. I don't recall if the UNIBUS map is accessible
The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b
UNIBUS only. This will
work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines,
since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory.
For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory
slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA
lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would
need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle
(ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide
for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC
designed for.
You scared me there for a second. There are no 22 bit unibus dma
devices, right? only 18 address bits on unibus, right? even on an
11/44, right?
from the UNIBUS itself (if it is, this could work; if
not, then it won't).
1:11 p.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
Don North wrote:
...
If Guy really can implement a 22b examine/deposit physical memory in a
pure SPC slot kudos to him. The only way I can think of possibly doing
it (thinking out loud again :-) ) is to steal a UNIBUS map entry and on
each exam/deposit set it up correctly to map the 18b unibus address to
the desired 22b address. I don't recall if the UNIBUS map is accessible
from the UNIBUS itself (if it is, this could work; if not, then it won't).
If it's accessible from the unibus you don't have to steal it - you
could just "barrow" the entry for a moment.
I'd smile to see a PIC running bus master cycles, however :-) Me? I'm
using an ARM :-)
-brad
26 Feb
26 Feb
10:06 a.m.
New subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel
On Fri, 2006-02-24 at 12:26 -0800, Don North wrote:
If Guy really can implement a 22b examine/deposit physical memory in a
pure SPC slot kudos to him. The only way I can think of possibly doing
it (thinking out loud again :-) ) is to steal a UNIBUS map entry and on
each exam/deposit set it up correctly to map the 18b unibus address to
the desired 22b address. I don't recall if the UNIBUS map is accessible
from the UNIBUS itself (if it is, this could work; if not, then it won't).
Ding! Ding!
Yes, I'm planning on co-opting one of the map entries while the system
is "halted". Since it will require multiple steps (saving/restoring the
contents of the map entry before and after the examine/deposit) I'll
have to implement some sort of sequencer and a bit of a scratchpad (and
also forcing the system into 22-bit addressing).
From what I've been able to tell, the UNIBUS map is
accessible from the
UNIBUS. I have to do a bit more research to make sure.
--
TTFN - Guy
8 Mar
8 Mar
2:12 p.m.
New subject: Such a deal, let the bidding begin ... :-)
Currently active on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/pstwm has to be seen to
be believed.
If it was from the *first printing* then I shudder to think of what the
price would be :)
*
*
9:33 a.m.
New subject: Such a deal, let the bidding begin ... :-)
I have one. Is it THAT rare???
BTW The same seller has a HP NSC800 Inverse Assembler Tape. I wonder
what system it's is for. It's one of the OLD style tapes and isn't that
style used in the HP 64000 LDS, 9845, 9825, HP-85, etc.
Joe
At 02:12 PM 3/8/06 -0800, you wrote:
Currently active on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/pstwm
has to be seen to
be believed.
If it was from the *first printing* then I shudder to think of what the
price would be :)
*
*
9:59 a.m.
New subject: Such a deal, let the bidding begin ... :-)
At 02:52 PM 3/8/06 -0800, you wrote:
Worth $199 (starting price!!!)
I have several, from different years, and even with different
I have
one. Is it THAT rare???
Define rare. bindings. But then my collection of DEC handbooks
definitely isn't the
norm.
Zane
2:58 p.m.
New subject: Such a deal, let the bidding begin ... :-)
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com>
Currently
active on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/pstwm has to be seen to
be believed.
I have one. Is it THAT rare???
I don't think so. I have multiple copies of several editions.
On the other hand, I don't have *any* copies of the second edition :-).
Vince
2:22 p.m.
New subject: Such a deal, let the bidding begin ... :-)
Currently active on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/pstwm
has to be seen to
be believed.
If it was from the *first printing* then I shudder to think of what the
price would be :)
I think I can come up with a copy for the low, low price of $180, but if it
is a first addition I want $500.
And yes, I'm serious, if someone wants to pay that much for a copy, who am I
to deny them the joy of owning one :^)
Zane
9 Mar
9 Mar
2:54 a.m.
New subject: Such a deal, let the bidding begin ... :-)
I don't know if anyone has looked at the other auctions, he has 14"
wyse monitors for ?135.
The second edition of that book is only ?49.
Also there are some S100 bits fdc,cpu for only ?25. The prices seem
all over the place.
Dan
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