28 Feb
2013
28 Feb
'13
10:50 a.m.
------------------------------
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 10:18 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
Why can't you just write a small batch program that
references the driver
and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If not enough
room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used to do this for
customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included small start up menus,
etc.
Drivers = extension rom code? Interesting proposition. I'll wager it's not very
straitforward. Numerous graphics cards had drivers for say Autocad and whatnot. But
that's entirely different from the startup code needed to set up initial register
values and whatever on the cards chips.
It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually returns an
error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, just don't ask me the
particulars). Then initialize the video card as dos is starting. Seems possible, would be
interesting to see someone do it.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of madodel
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:48 AM
To: General at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net; Discussion at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net
:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 5150
On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote:
The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early,
Serial # 0155185 (did
they start from #1?).
I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the assembly
line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what happened to PC #1
after he was done with it he said as far as he knew the same thing they did
to all their internal use machines at the time. Stripped it for parts for
warranty repairs.
Mark
So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA
card then and all is well?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield"
<christopher1400 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: IBM 5150
I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I
believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's
own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I
assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer.
--
C:\win
Bad Command Or File Name
C:\
--
From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel
Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org
Warpstock Europe 2013 -http://www.warpstock.eu
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"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth
of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their
democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership
of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private
power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly
Investigation, 1938
-----
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-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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28 Feb
28 Feb
11:53 a.m.
We have IBM 5150s here. I can put almost any 8-bit ISA video card in it,
and get the boot sequences on the screen. If it is supposed to be color,
but comes up b/w, then I make a batch program called color.bat or whatever
and reference the driver for the card, and presto, I have color. Some of
these old cards came with drivers, and I have a very large collection of
these very old drivers.
Some of the old cards have switches or some other means to set the graphics
mode and resolution, but others do not. There are very few old 8-bit cards
that will not work on the 5150.
I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the
5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set
the colors and resolution. Since there were a number of cards, and thus a
wide variety of options for the game programmers, they usually chose 8 or 16
colors, and told the user to choose 40 or 80 columns, and then you had a
color game. Granted, circles and ovals looked like a bunch of tiny squares
lined up to make a circle or oval, but they ran pretty well.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chris Tofu
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:51 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: IBM 5150
------------------------------
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 10:18 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
Why can't you just write a small batch program that
references the
driver and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If
not enough room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used
to do this for customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included
small start up menus, etc.
Drivers = extension rom code? Interesting proposition. I'll wager it's not
very straitforward. Numerous graphics cards had drivers for say Autocad and
whatnot. But that's entirely different from the startup code needed to set
up initial register values and whatever on the cards chips.
It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually
returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, just
don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as dos is
starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do it.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of madodel
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:48 AM
To: General at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net;
Discussion at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net
:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 5150
On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote:
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13
The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early,
Serial # 0155185 (did
they start from #1?).
I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the
assembly line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what
happened to PC #1 after he was done with it he said as far as he knew
the same thing they did to all their internal use machines at the time.
Stripped it for parts for warranty repairs.
Mark
So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA
card then and all is well?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield"
<christopher1400 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: IBM 5150
I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I
believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's
own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I
assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer.
--
C:\win
Bad Command Or File Name
C:\
--
From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel
Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2013
-http://www.warpstock.eu
For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE -
http://www.os2voice.org
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the
growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their
democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership
of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling
private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the
Monopoly Investigation, 1938
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date:
02/27/13
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date:
02/27/13
12:11 p.m.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
We have IBM 5150s here. I can put almost any 8-bit
ISA video card in it,
and get the boot sequences on the screen.
The absolutely EARLIEST of the 16K 5150s don't check for ROMs on video
cards during boot.
The second? revision of the BIOS for the 16K 5150 took care of that.
If it is supposed to be color,
but comes up b/w, then I make a batch program called color.bat or whatever
and reference the driver for the card, and presto, I have color. Some of
these old cards came with drivers, and I have a very large collection of
these very old drivers.
Good to know!
Some of the old cards have switches or some other
means to set the graphics
mode and resolution, but others do not. There are very few old 8-bit cards
that will not work on the 5150.
I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are
color games for the
5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set
the colors and resolution. Since there were a number of cards, and thus a
wide variety of options for the game programmers, they usually chose 8 or 16
colors, and told the user to choose 40 or 80 columns, and then you had a
color game. Granted, circles and ovals looked like a bunch of tiny squares
lined up to make a circle or oval, but they ran pretty well.
For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on.
1:24 p.m.
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus
wrote:
I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I
personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and
that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was
using it on.
When I was writing kids games for Software Productions (makers of
"Micro Mother Goose", "Micro Habitats", and "Alphabet Beasts and
Co",
sold by Reader's Digest), we supported the early models of PC around
the DOS 2.10 era, and our products only came in CGA versions (you
could use a Mono adapter but the graphics weren't optimized for that
so many adjacent "shades" of our colors/textures smeared together
visually). Our Apple II products looked *loads* better than those
early fiddlings with CGA.
-ethan
I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there
are color games for the
5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set
the colors and resolution...
For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on. 
3:15 p.m.
On 02/28/2013 01:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for
CGA. The oldest program I
personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and
that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was
using it on.
I used both OrCAD and Schema on a 5160 with Hercules monochrome
graphics. It worked just fine and I think I even still have the
floppies with a few projects on them. CGA graphics resolution is pretty
terrible, but HGA approaches EGA, just without the color. The Graphics
Plus included a font RAM and support for a 4096-character display font.
I'll have to look at some of the other CAD software ("CADKey") from
about that time to see if it runs on a 5160. I'm guessing that the
answer is "yes".
--Chuck
3:45 p.m.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for
CGA.
There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG!
CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out.
They make great neighbors! You can always update several generations
worth of graphics resolution technology with their DISCARDED "obsolete"
stuff!
(Such as Wyse700/Amdek1280: 1280 x 800 B&W using it's own proprietary
card, and supported by Windoze, Ventura, RageMaker, Paint, etc.)
Got a bunch of those for free before the first time that I bought an EGA!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:59 p.m.
On 02/28/2013 03:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Even more, they were early adopters of CAD workstations (Sun, Daisy,
Apollo,...). PeeCees were for weenies.
--Chuck
I'm sure there's very little if any CAD
for CGA.
There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG!
CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out. 
8:17 p.m.
On 02/28/2013 09:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 02/28/2013 03:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Funny how some things never change. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Even more, they were early adopters of CAD workstations (Sun, Daisy,
Apollo,...). PeeCees were for weenies. I'm sure there's very little if any CAD
for CGA.
There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG!
CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out.
1 Mar
1 Mar
8:26 a.m.
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 02/28/2013 03:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA.
>
> There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG!
>
> CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out.
That's what I remember when EGA was new and expensive (then it was
quickly gone and replaced with VGA in what felt like a few months).
Even more, they were early adopters of CAD
workstations (Sun, Daisy,
Apollo,...). PeeCees were for weenies.
I definitely remember that era. Lots of the CAD I saw in the 8-bit
and 16-bit PC era was on $10K-$50K UNIX workstations. I was just
asking a friend last night about engineering drawings and what he used
when he was a draftsman, and he replied, "Intergraph workstation" and
whatever the matching application was (it's not like you had lots of
application choices on proprietary platforms).
The first schematic capture and PCB layout system I ever saw up close
was in 1984 (and was a year or two old at that point, so it was
contemporary with the IBM 5150). It ran on a IBM 4331 and used a
largish (17"? 19"?) Tektronix storage scope for the user. I recall
it being a bit clunky to use. PADS? (not PADS-PCB the MS-DOS
application that we used 2-3 years later when an IBM 5170 PC/AT was
available and capable of doing circuit layout).
-ethan
28 Feb
28 Feb
4:33 p.m.
On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin
at xenosoft.com> wrote:
The original AutoCAD (for some degree of the term "original") was
developed for DOS on 8086 and CP/M-80 (plus early development for
the TI 9900). John Walker has a document-based history of
AutoCAD development here:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/
I think my favorite document is this one:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/section2_10_8.html
I'm still a little upset that we've ended up (OK, not ALL of us)
with the 8086 as the dominant processor of the computing world.
In any case, I would imagine that the DOS version of AutoCAD in
1982 wasn't using anything better than CGA. Some of the dev
notes for AutoCAD-80 note that work got done faster because the
CP/M port relied on more intelligent output devices that needed
less low-level control than the IBM and Victor 9000 ports.
- Dave
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics
Plus wrote:
I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I
personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and
that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was
using it on. I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there
are color games for the
5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set
the colors and resolution...
For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on.
7:24 p.m.
On 02/28/2013 07:33 PM, David Riley wrote:
I'm still a little upset that we've ended up
(OK, not ALL of us)
with the 8086 as the dominant processor of the computing world.
Nope, not all of us. ;)
In any case, I would imagine that the DOS version of
AutoCAD in
1982 wasn't using anything better than CGA. Some of the dev
notes for AutoCAD-80 note that work got done faster because the
CP/M port relied on more intelligent output devices that needed
less low-level control than the IBM and Victor 9000 ports.
I ran AutoCAD 2.17B for a long while in the mid-80s on an 8MHz 8088.
My display adapter was a CGA. It wasn't pretty (there was nothing at
all that was "pretty" about CGA output) but it was usable.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:13 p.m.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote:
It seems what you're saying is the pc will
startup w/o video (usually
returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port,
just don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as
dos is starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do
it.
Yeah, we used to.
It is nice, however, to have boot video!
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