28 Mar
2003
28 Mar
'03
8:03 a.m.
On Mar 28, 9:47, Jay West wrote:
I've heard these really aren't to be found
anywhere, but thought I'd
check
with the list.
I'd like to get a disk subsystem on my PDP-8E. I've pretty much given
up
that I'll ever find an RK05 drive and controller
for it, so I'm now
looking
to hook up an existing RL02 drive to it. I think this
is done via the
M8433?
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
28 Mar
28 Mar
8:31 a.m.
--- Peter Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> wrote:
Yes. One RL8A (M8433) can talk to up to 4 drives, and you can have up
to two RL8As in one OMNIBUS (but there aren't enough driver slots in
OS/8 to view all those partitions at once - you have to juggle around
a bunch).
On Mar 28, 9:47, Jay West wrote:
> I've heard these really aren't to be found anywhere, but thought I'd
> check with the list.
Not that you can use it (see below), but I bought one (RL8A) from a DEC
reseller for well under $100 a couple of years ago (either $30 or
$60, I can't remember now). Cables are hard to come by, though.
> I'd like to get a disk subsystem on my
PDP-8E. I've pretty much given
> up that I'll ever find an RK05 drive and controller for it
I understand that feeling - it took me years to track down an RK8E at
a decent price (swap) - I've had a 16-sector RK05F pack since 1984 and
have never read it (and still can't - no RK05F drive/heads) At least
thanks to David Gesswein, I have one 16-sector RK05J pack.
... so I'm
now looking to hook up an existing RL02 drive to it. I think
this is done via the
M8433? If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't
be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
True. Now... if you have an -8/a hex-wide *chassis*, you can mount the
KK8E CPU board set in there, or, IIRC, with OMNIBUS extension cables,
you can attach the -8/a chassis to the -8/e backplane, but if all you
have is a single -8/e box, you are out of luck. I have my -8/e in
test mode with the PSU sitting *next to* its box - there's room for
hex cards then, but I wouldn't want to run that way full-time.
There aren't a lot of hard disk options for a quad-wide box... floppy
(RX8E), RK05 (RK8E) and older stuff (through an external bus converter).
By the time newer disks came out, DEC was only selling hex-wide 12-bit
boxes, and all the new devices could fit on a single hex-height card
instead of several quad-height cards, so there you are.
There might be a third party quad disk controller or two, but I can't
quote vendor and model numbers. My machines are 100% DEC.
-ethan
8:52 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
Peter wrote....
----- Original Message -----
Homebrewing an IDE interface and patching the software to run it would
be a FUN project ;-)
-- hbp
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433
won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?
9:35 a.m.
--- Hans B Pufal <hansp(a)aconit.org> wrote:
Jay West wrote:
I've been kicking around odd storage project ideas for *years* and
have yet to do more than putter. I even have a couple of blank proto
boards which would save me a *bundle* on a one-off (one hex, one
quad and a couple of duals).
I keep talking myself in circles about how best to do it. One thing
that hold me back is what chips to use for OMNIBUS interfacing. I
know what to use for Qbus (real DEC chips + LS240s, etc.). I know
a few things to use for the OMNIBUS (7438, 7401), but the Nat'l Semi
and other oddments are probably a poor choice for a new design.
I also gyrate into inaction about hardwired logic vs GALs vs FPGAs
vs microprocessors. Each has its good points and bad points (some are
easier to build, some are easier to modify, some are cheaper to build)
I also get tangled up in OMNIBUS vs posi/negi-bus devices. I have
a little of everything here, and would prefer to build as few varieties
of peripherals as possible.
Finally, given how simple some of the devices are to implement (DF-32,
RF-08, etc.), it's a choice of emulate an existing device or strike out
in an entirely new direction. One is easier to build (but requires
software effort), the other is easier to use but requires more design
effort.
I think I'll probably be happiest building someone elses design and let
them ask/answer the hard questions. Construction is not the hard part
for me; it's the woolgathering phase of design that I get stuck at. I'm
happy to be part of the process of a group-think, but on my own, I just
argue myself in circles about the best approach.
-ethan
Peter wrote....
----- Original Message -----
Ideas?
Homebrewing an IDE interface and patching the software to run it would
be a FUN project ;-) If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433
won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? 
9:08 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
Peter wrote....
----- Original Message -----
I have something called a TriData recorder for my PDP-8L. Basically it
uses a type of tape cassette to record data. The person who originally
bought the machine used the cassettes to store the programs he was
writing. Then again, there is always paper/mylar tape :).
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433
won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?
9:36 a.m.
--- Jay West <jwest(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Peter wrote....
----- Original Message -----
Not as such, but I did happen to run across a $300 RL8A on my quest
to answer what's in that PDP-11/35 FC... that's about 1/2 of what I
paid for my first one in 1986. :-P (but at least mine came with docs
and cables)
-ethan
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433
won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas? 
10:44 a.m.
If you have an
8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?
10:57 a.m.
--- Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> wrote:
There are no easy solutions.
If you have a RL02, then you need a 8/a chassis, cables... interface...
...cable ... terminator. Odds are you don't have most of those parts.
With several machines, *I* don't even have all of those parts (never had
any way to link up multiple backplanes)
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't
be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's
meant for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E?
Ideas? If you have a 8/F or 8/M, it is possible to remove one
of the case fans,
and install the hex wide interface into the chassis. Then you just need
the cable for the first drive and the drive terminator.
Interesting suggestion. I don't have either an -8/F or -8/M and would
not have thought of that.
I do not know if the same cable arrangement works for the RL8A as the
RL11, but if it did, that would be superb. I know of (at least) three
arrangements:
RL8A - custom cable - Berg on one end, RL01/RL02 on the other
RL11 - ordinary DEC 40-pin shielded cable to a transition connector
typically bolted to the rack near the first drive
RLV12 - custom cable, but not the same part number as the RL8A cable.
Since the transition connector is *identical* to the pair that are screwed
to the back of a drive, they can be had when scrapping a dead drive if
not already available. The rack mounting bracket is another matter, but
that's easily fabricated/replicated.
Otherwise, You need a quad wide RK05 interface
(definitely available, but
probably expensive),
Probably expensive, but not *commonly* available.
the cable (usually not available, but possible to
manufacture),
I'm going to use the one from my RKV11D (since I don't really need
an RK05 on a Qbus PDP-11 full time). It's the same paddle and dual-
40-pin cable set.
a RK05? drive, and drive terminator.
Drive terminators are relatively common - M930 Unibus terminator (the short
one that you *don't* use in "modern" boxes)
Plus you need special 16 sector DECpacks to use with
the RK05.
Most rare (unless you find a cache of them). I have many 12-sector
packs, collected over 20 years. I have *two* 16-sector packs (also
collected over 20 years).
Personally, I just bought a RK05j and when they get
around to shipping
it, I hope to finally have a chance of getting one of my 8/E's going
with mass storage!...
Good luck with that. I'm right there behind you, once I get the -8/e
debugged (got spare parts present or on the way!) I've used RK05s
on PDP-11s, but not a PDP-8, yet.
-ethan
30 Mar
30 Mar
5:42 a.m.
On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote:
RLV12 - custom cable, but not the same part number
as the RL8A cable.
Does this mean it's not a straight-through cable? I've got a
straight-thru cable going from my RLV12 to the RL02, but never got it to
work... I don't have the transition cable/connector or external DEC cable
for the RL02 (but, yes, I do have a terminator).
Pat
--
Purdue Universtiy ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www-rcd.cc.purdue.edu
7:21 a.m.
--- Patrick Finnegan <pat(a)purdueriots.com> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I don't know. In this particular thread what I mean by "custom cable"
is that one end of a 1/2" diameter cable with many twisted pairs has an
RL01/RL02 end, the other has a 40-pin Berg connector with no obviously
visible pattern to it.
The RL11 and RLV11 use a flat ribbon cable and a transition bracket. It's
obvious from simple inspection which pins go where.
The RL8A and RLV12 cables that I have seen have different part numbers.
I would quote chapter and verse, but I do not know which box mine are
in to lay hands on them. :-(
RLV12 - custom cable, but not the same part
number as the RL8A cable.
Does this mean it's not a straight-through cable? I've got a straight-thru cable going from my RLV12
to the RL02, but
never got it to work... I don't have the transition cable/connector or
external DEC cable for the RL02 (but, yes, I do have a terminator).
Hmm... I have never seen anyone do that, but in theory, if you have the
signals lined up, it should work. Do you have the docs for the RLV12
and the RL02 to verify what signals go where? There's a *possibility*
you have a simple mirror-image problem. I have seen that sort of thing
crop up with flat cables and odd arrangements before - think of the
issues with DEC SDI drives and cables - odd numbers of cables between
the drive and controller don't work - you need those transition brackets
and a pair of cables in-between to flip and reflip the signals around.
DEC stuff is designed not to smoke (in 99.995% of cases) when you plug
something in backwards.
It shouldn't take verifying more than a handful of signals to establish
if your current cabling does the right thing or not.
-ethan
31 Mar
31 Mar
2:49 p.m.
--- Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> wrote:
There are no easy solutions.
If you have a RL02, then you need a 8/a chassis, cables... interface...
...cable ... terminator. Odds are you don't have most of those parts.
With several machines, *I* don't even have all of those parts (never had
any way to link up multiple backplanes)
Well, I bought the cable that interconnects a quad omnibus with a hex
omnibus. So someday when I get an empty 8/A chassis, and that cable
that goes from the RL8A to the first drive, I can get a RL01 running.
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't
be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's
meant for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E?
Ideas? If you have a 8/F or 8/M, it is possible to
remove one of the case fans,
and install the hex wide interface into the chassis. Then you just need
the cable for the first drive and the drive terminator.
Interesting suggestion. I don't have either an -8/F or -8/M and would
not have thought of that. Otherwise, You
need a quad wide RK05 interface (definitely available, but
probably expensive),
Probably expensive, but not *commonly* available. the cable (usually not available, but possible to
manufacture),
I'm going to use the one from my RKV11D (since I don't really need
an RK05 on a Qbus PDP-11 full time). It's the same paddle and dual-
40-pin cable set. Plus you need special 16 sector DECpacks to use
with the RK05.
Most rare (unless you find a cache of them). I have many 12-sector
packs, collected over 20 years. I have *two* 16-sector packs (also
collected over 20 years). 
28 Mar
28 Mar
10:57 a.m.
On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 13:41, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
There are no easy solutions.
If you have a RL02, then you need a 8/a chassis, cables to connect it to
your 8/E chassis, the Hex interface board, then the cable that goes between
the interface and first drive, and a drive terminator. Odds are you dont
have most of those parts.
If you have a 8/F or 8/M, it is possible to remove one of the case fans,
and install the hex wide interface into the chassis. Then you just need
the cable for the first drive and the drive terminator.
Otherwise, You need a quad wide RK05 interface (definitely available, but
probably expensive), the cable (usually not available, but possible to
manufacture), a RK05? drive, and drive terminator. Plus you need special
16 sector DECpacks to use with the RK05.
The RK8E is a 3 board set that plugs into the Omnibus. There are a set
of cables that go from the RK8E to the drive. Taking an old BC11 cable
paddle and rigging it with connectors for the cables from the RK8E *may*
be the easiest path. The cables from the RK8E is two ribbon cables
(forget how many conductors right now). The drive terminator is nothing
more than a plain old M930 (Unibus terminator).
If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't
be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one. It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.
Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?
Personally, I just bought a RK05j and when they get around to shipping it,
I hope to finally have a chance of getting one of my 8/E's going with
mass storage!...
--
TTFN - Guy
11:38 a.m.
--- Guy Sotomayor <ggs(a)shiresoft.com> wrote:
The RK8E is a 3 board set that plugs into the Omnibus.
With several H851s... I got a board set a while back, but no way to
interconnect the boards. That's the biggest pain when dealing with
quad-high OMNIBUS boards.
There are a set
of cables that go from the RK8E to the drive. Taking an old BC11 cable
paddle and rigging it with connectors for the cables from the RK8E *may*
be the easiest path.
Going from scratch, I'd recommend using a dual-height prototype card
and adding your own connectors to it. There's a source of them for
a few $$$ ($25?) but I can't find it right now.
The cables from the RK8E is two ribbon cables
(forget how many conductors right now).
40 each. Not even shielded (on my RKV11D).
The drive terminator is nothing more than a plain old
M930 (Unibus
terminator).
Yep.
-ethan
8:24 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Going from scratch, I'd recommend using a
dual-height prototype card
and adding your own connectors to it. There's a source of them for
a few $$$ ($25?) but I can't find it right now.
http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html ?
they seem more expensive than you mention
-- hbp
29 Mar
29 Mar
5:03 a.m.
--- Hans B Pufal <hansp(a)aconit.org> wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
OK... $27.51 for the model I was thinking of (21-DE-77 - 0.1" grid,
dual-height, single width).
-ethan
Going from scratch, I'd recommend using a
dual-height prototype card
and adding your own connectors to it. There's a source of them for
a few $$$ ($25?) but I can't find it right now.
http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html ?
they seem more expensive than you mention
6:46 a.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
--- Hans B Pufal <hansp(a)aconit.org> wrote:
>Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>Going from scratch, I'd recommend using a dual-height prototype card
>>and adding your own connectors to it. There's a source of them for
>>a few $$$ ($25?) but I can't find it right now.
>http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html ?
>they seem more expensive than you mention
OK... $27.51 for the model I was thinking of (21-DE-77
- 0.1" grid,
dual-height, single width).
Sorry, I thought you meant quad width cards. This was the reference you
were thinking of I presume.
-- hbp
7789
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16 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
hansp＠aconit.org -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
marvin＠rain.org -
pat＠purdueriots.com -
pete＠dunnington.u-net.com