18 May
2008
18 May
'08
9:50 a.m.
>> with DEC being gone, etc?
Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my experience is a very friendly
company to historians and hobbyists.
18 May
18 May
9:55 a.m.
copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain by now.
whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up world?
speaking of DEC stuff, anyone got the PAKGEN info? ugh.
----------------------------------------
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
From: evan at snarc.net
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:50:00 -0400
Subject: Re: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ?
_________________________________________________________________
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>> with DEC being gone, etc?
Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my experience is a very friendly
company to historians and hobbyists.
10:11 a.m.
copyrights dont last forever.
No, but in the USA, they might as well, thanks *cough* *spit* to
Disney. (I've actually heard the recurring copyright extensions called
the "Disney clause".)
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11:46 a.m.
Dan wrote:
copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s
should be public domain
by now.
Sorry, Dan, but that's very nearly as wrong about copyright as it is
possible to be.
In the US, for all practical purposes, copyrights on anything created after
1922 do last forever. The official story is that they last for the life
of the author plus 70 years [*], but in practice every few years Disney
et al. get Congress to pass a new law to extend it further.
There's also a ratcheting up affect. The copyright interest in the
US say "we've got to catch up with the rest of the world", and increase
the US copyright term beyond what some other country has. Then the
corporations in that country tell their legislature that they have to
"catch up" with the US, and they increase theirs beyond ours, and
then...
As you may be aware, there is very little computer software and
documentation from 1922 and earlier that is now in the public
domain.
whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up
world?
Fair use? Why should the copyright owners let us have fair use? That
won't help their profits any. We only get fair use to the extent that
Disney et al. haven't yet convinced Congress and the courts to take it
away from us.
Eric
[*] For works of corporate authorship, the shorter of 95 years from
publication or 120 years from creation.
11:54 a.m.
Of course your comments are all US-based.
I'm in Canada, and thankfully things are still a bit different here.
We're even allowed to copy things - as long as they're for personal use,
that's a major difference.
Hopefully, some day, govt's will realize making things too draconian will only make it
worse and drive everyone underground.
Dan.
----------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:46:49 -0700
From: eric at brouhaha.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ?
Dan wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s
should be public domain
by now.
Sorry, Dan, but that's very nearly as wrong about copyright as it is
possible to be.
In the US, for all practical purposes, copyrights on anything created after
1922 do last forever. The official story is that they last for the life
of the author plus 70 years [*], but in practice every few years Disney
et al. get Congress to pass a new law to extend it further.
There's also a ratcheting up affect. The copyright interest in the
US say "we've got to catch up with the rest of the world", and increase
the US copyright term beyond what some other country has. Then the
corporations in that country tell their legislature that they have to
"catch up" with the US, and they increase theirs beyond ours, and
then...
As you may be aware, there is very little computer software and
documentation from 1922 and earlier that is now in the public
domain.
whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up
world?
Fair use? Why should the copyright owners let us have fair use? That
won't help their profits any. We only get fair use to the extent that
Disney et al. haven't yet convinced Congress and the courts to take it
away from us.
Eric
[*] For works of corporate authorship, the shorter of 95 years from
publication or 120 years from creation.
12:40 p.m.
Dan wrote:
Of course your comments are all US-based.
Which I explicitly stated.
I'm in Canada, and thankfully things are still a
bit different here.
Not that much. Slightly better in some ways, and slightly worse
in others. The biggest difference is that AFAIK Canada doesn't
(yet) have an equivalent of the US DMCA, though they keep trying.
The term of copyright in Canada is the life of the author plus 50
years. That's not as long as the term of US copyrights, but it is
still long enough that almost no computer software qualifies.
We're even allowed to copy things - as long as
they're for personal use,
that's a major difference.
Incorrect. There are limited "fair dealing" rights, roughly equivalent
to the US "fair use" rights, but "personal use" is NOT sufficient to
qualify. If Disney brings suit against you for making a copy of one
of their films, and your defense is simply that the copy was only for
personal use, Disney will prevail. It doesn't appear that the
situation is likely to be any different for software, or for
computer documentation.
Hopefully, some day, govt's will realize making
things too draconian will
only make it worse and drive everyone underground.
That would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. Legislators are
beholden to their major campaign contributors, few of whom have any
interest in seeing copyright restrictions loosened.
Eric
1:16 p.m.
Dan wrote:
> Of course your comments are all US-based.
On Sun, 18 May 2008, Eric Smith wrote:
Which I explicitly stated.
Dan wrote:
> I'm in Canada, and thankfully things are still a bit different here.
and the original remark (without country stated) was about DEC's
copyrights
> Hopefully, some day, govt's will realize
making things too draconian will
> only make it worse and drive everyone underground.
Surely, nobody expects the US guvmint to make such a realization?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:18 p.m.
FWIW, there's a server somewhere on the Internet -- in Australia
perhaps? -- that serves up the DEC documentation CD from VMS V5 or V6 or
thereabouts. I remember finding it when I was out looking for
Infoserver documentation.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ?
On Sun, 18 May 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
>> copyrights dont last forever. stuff from
the 70s should be public
domain
>> by now.
Sorry, Dan,
but that still isn't true.
18 May
18 May
11:12 a.m.
New subject: HP (Was: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ?
>> with
DEC being gone, etc?
Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my
experience is a
very friendly company to historians and hobbyists. 
11:16 a.m.
New subject: HP (Was: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ?
On May 18, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Often.
But there exist some execs in HP who adamently refuse to ever
cooperate
with anybody who is "working out of a garage".
Pretty ironic, given how HP (and most other companies) got their
start.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
>> with DEC being gone, etc?
Gone? Not
quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my
experience is a
very friendly company to historians and hobbyists.
5583
days inactive
5826
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11 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgahling＠hotmail.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
evan＠snarc.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
Paul_Koning＠Dell.com