31 Mar
2022
31 Mar
'22
12:36 a.m.
From: Tony Duell
A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in the
PSU could do it.
The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve supply
of which is -15V.
Ah; I hadn't even looked at the P/S prints.
(Like I said, I'm really weak on analog: for digital, I have the advantages
that i) although I'm basically/mostly a software person, the MIT CS
department is part of the EE department, and they made sure that all the CS
people had a decent grounding in the fundamentals of digital hardware; and
ii) in my early years, I was involved in a number of actual hardware
projects, including a UNIBUS DMA network interface that tuned into an actual
product. So I'm pretty good with a digital circuit diagram, like these CPU
prints. But analog stuff is still a mostly-closed book to me! :-)
Anyway, I'm happy to let you provide the analysis of the P/S... :-)
From: Rob Jarratt
[Perhaps] something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail
(if indeed it
did).
I'd guess 'unlikely' (if Q15 has failed); UNIBUS ACLO is connected, on the
CPU
card, to only a single gate (on K2), and that 383 ohm pull-up (on K3), and the
1K pF cap there (the purpose of which I still don't understand, unless it's
just a smoother). Although I suppose that if that cap failed, shorted, maybe
that could have taken out Q15 somehow.
Perhaps I should ... and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and
LTC, they are all on
the same connector
Now why didn't I think of just un-plugging that whole connector! Duhhhh! My
only concern would be leaving inputs floating...
DCLO, no problem; it has that pull-up on K3. (Ditto for ACLO, if the buffering
input gate isn't dead.) LTC, let's see... It's on K6, upper left corner.
I'm
too lazy to work out what leaving that input floating will do, and, if it has
bad consequences, trace out all the places it goes (it should be connected up
to cause an interrupt, somewhere), but there's no point; the KW11 has an
'interrupt enable' that has to be set by software before it can do anything;
so at the moment it's safe to just ignore it for now, and stay with a focus on
getting the main CPU clock running. (LTC is not on the UNIBUS, so there's no
pull-up on the M9302 for it the way there is for ACLO & DCLO.)
So unplug that connector, and see if E70 (on K2, lower right corner) is OK.
(Remember, the pull-up will give it an Ok input with BUS ACLO disconnected.)
If yes, great, go check the main CPU clock.
If not, time to i) see how far the rot has spread (e.g. have other gates in
that package died - not sure what else is in there; not just looking at things
connected to the output - on pin 2), and ii) decide how to repair or
temporarily bypass. (Ditto for anything else that got taken out.) I'd be
tempted to bypass it (since I doubt you stock 8837's - although I do :-) -
ACLO handling isn't needed to get the CPU running. Tie BUF (not BUS!) ACLO to
ground, I'd say, and we can move on to look at MCLK.
If that works then I think repair ACLO and see if
anything on the CPU
is bad or anything else that might cause a short on the ACLO signal of
the bus.
Well, your call, but i) working ACLO isn't needed to get the CPU running -
and, in particular, to look for other problems that might be preventing it
from running, and ii) fixing ACLO isn't guaranteed
to make the CPU work.
I'd recommend 'keeping the eye on the ball', and focus on the main CPU clock,
getting ODT running, etc. The ACLO issue(s) can be cleaned up at your leisure.
Noel
31 Mar
31 Mar
1:02 p.m.
On 2022-Mar-31, at 12:36 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
Note: It's Q14 that controls ACLO, not Q15, Q15 is involved in the +5 startup. Unless
there are two versions of the schematic and I'm looking at a different one than
everyone else.
pdfPg.30 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf
Removing DCLO and ACLO from the PS to the bus may allow the CPU/clock to work. Or it may
not.
DCLO & ACLO behave as power-on-reset signals to the system. If they are allowed to
just float up as the power supply comes up you have no guarantees as to the end result
('end' meaning the state of things after the power supply has come up), without
doing an analysis of the pertinent logic under their control.
JFETs are being used as the ACLO/DCLO control devices for a reason. In contrast to
bipolars, the normal/no-gate-voltage state of a JFET is Source-Drain conducting, thus the
initial state at power-up of ACLO-L & DCLO-L will be 0V/low-impedance-to-GND. The
point is to maintain that state until the power supply levels are good so the logic can be
forced into a known state.
Those three comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp generated by C14 and
the constant-current circuit of Q11.
What is supposed to happen:
- everything is initially 0V: V+5, ACLO, DCLO.
- power is switched on. Internal voltage levels begin to rise.
- after some delay, E4 trips first to start the +5 supply.
- after some more delay, E5 trips, de-asserting DCLO (DCLO = High,+V).
- after some more delay, E6 trips, de-asserting ACLO (ACLO = High,+V).
The delays are presumably of some order of mS.
-15V is the expected level from the E6 comparator output if AC is good. A Gate-Drain short
in Q14 would be allowing that out to the bus. JFETs can be flaky, a failed JFET
wouldn't be a big surprise.
So E6.6 = Q14.G = -15V is expected after power-up but an additional concern would be that
a G-D short allowed excessive current from the bus through the E6 comparator output and
damaged E6, or if left on too long burned out pull-up resistors on the CPU or bus
terminator. However the LM301 is supposed to have current limiting so those things may not
have been damaged.
The scope could be used to observe what is going on with the +5, DCLO, ACLO sequencing at
power up (with bus pull-ups, but without CPU).
Removing only the ACLO PS-to-bus connection would allow DCLO to still exercise it's
proper POR control. Once bus-ACLO is disconnected from the PS, look for the clock LED
after powering up with both bus-ACLO open (pulled high by bus & CPU) and bus-ACLO
connected to GND. Manually connecting/disconnecting bus-ACLO to GND after power-up will
trigger the CPU power-fail shutdown and disable the clock.
From: Tony
Duell
A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in
the PSU could do it.
The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve supply
of which is -15V.
Ah; I hadn't even looked at the P/S prints.
(Like I said, I'm really weak on analog: for digital, I have the advantages
that i) although I'm basically/mostly a software person, the MIT CS
department is part of the EE department, and they made sure that all the CS
people had a decent grounding in the fundamentals of digital hardware; and
ii) in my early years, I was involved in a number of actual hardware
projects, including a UNIBUS DMA network interface that tuned into an actual
product. So I'm pretty good with a digital circuit diagram, like these CPU
prints. But analog stuff is still a mostly-closed book to me! :-)
Anyway, I'm happy to let you provide the analysis of the P/S... :-)
From: Rob Jarratt
[Perhaps] something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail (if indeed it
did).
I'd guess 'unlikely' (if Q15 has failed); UNIBUS ACLO is connected, on the
CPU
card, to only a single gate (on K2), and that 383 ohm pull-up (on K3), and the
1K pF cap there (the purpose of which I still don't understand, unless it's
just a smoother). Although I suppose that if that cap failed, shorted, maybe
that could have taken out Q15 somehow. Perhaps I
should ... and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and LTC, they are all on
the same connector
Now why didn't I think of just un-plugging that whole connector! Duhhhh! My
only concern would be leaving inputs floating...
DCLO, no problem; it has that pull-up on K3. (Ditto for ACLO, if the buffering
input gate isn't dead.) LTC, let's see... It's on K6, upper left corner.
I'm
too lazy to work out what leaving that input floating will do, and, if it has
bad consequences, trace out all the places it goes (it should be connected up
to cause an interrupt, somewhere), but there's no point; the KW11 has an
'interrupt enable' that has to be set by software before it can do anything;
so at the moment it's safe to just ignore it for now, and stay with a focus on
getting the main CPU clock running. (LTC is not on the UNIBUS, so there's no
pull-up on the M9302 for it the way there is for ACLO & DCLO.)
So unplug that connector, and see if E70 (on K2, lower right corner) is OK.
(Remember, the pull-up will give it an Ok input with BUS ACLO disconnected.)
If yes, great, go check the main CPU clock. 
2:14 p.m.
I made some interesting discoveries this evening. See below.
Well I can tell you it didn't, disconnecting those connectors left the CPU
still not doing anything. However, there is a puzzle. On the CPU I found
that the track from the pull up resistor to E70 has been cut. This would
suggest that E70 pin 2 is floating, which I think means that K2 BUF ACLO H
is also floating (I haven't put a probe on it as yet). But as the cut is
deliberate, there must be a reason. The CPU did work for a while when I
first got the machine. K2 BUS ACLO L however has been patched to E52 pin 4,
which is the output of a gate on sheet K6. Can't say I understand why.
However, for whatever reason it would seem that perhaps the ACLO signal from
the PSU has always been considered bad?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
cctalk
Sent: 31 March 2022 21:03
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards
On 2022-Mar-31, at 12:36 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
Note: It's Q14 that controls ACLO, not Q15, Q15 is involved in the +5
startup.
From:
Tony Duell
A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in
the PSU could do it.
The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve
supply of which is -15V.
Ah; I hadn't even looked at the P/S prints.
(Like I said, I'm really weak on analog: for digital, I have the
advantages that i) although I'm basically/mostly a software person,
the MIT CS department is part of the EE department, and they made sure
that all the CS people had a decent grounding in the fundamentals of
digital hardware; and
ii) in my early years, I was involved in a number of actual hardware
projects, including a UNIBUS DMA network interface that tuned into an
actual product. So I'm pretty good with a digital circuit diagram,
like these CPU prints. But analog stuff is still a mostly-closed book
to me! :-)
Anyway, I'm happy to let you provide the analysis of the P/S... :-)
From: Rob Jarratt
[Perhaps] something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail (if indeed it
did).
I'd guess 'unlikely' (if Q15 has failed); UNIBUS ACLO is connected, on
the CPU card, to only a single gate (on K2), and that 383 ohm pull-up
(on K3), and the 1K pF cap there (the purpose of which I still don't
understand, unless it's just a smoother). Although I suppose that if
that cap failed, shorted, maybe that could have taken out Q15 somehow. Unless there are two versions of the schematic and
I'm looking at a
different
one than everyone else.
pdfPg.30 of
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug8
0.pdf
Thanks for pointing that out, I had not noticed the other line going down to
Q13 and Q14.
>> Perhaps I should ... and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and LTC, they are all
>> on the same connector
>
> Now why didn't I think of just un-plugging that whole connector!
> Duhhhh! My only concern would be leaving inputs floating...
>
> DCLO, no problem; it has that pull-up on K3. (Ditto for ACLO, if the
> buffering input gate isn't dead.) LTC, let's see... It's on K6, upper
> left corner. I'm too lazy to work out what leaving that input floating
> will do, and, if it has bad consequences, trace out all the places it
> goes (it should be connected up to cause an interrupt, somewhere), but
> there's no point; the KW11 has an 'interrupt enable' that has to be
> set by software before it can do anything; so at the moment it's safe
> to just ignore it for now, and stay with a focus on getting the main
> CPU clock running. (LTC is not on the UNIBUS, so there's no pull-up on
> the M9302 for it the way there is for ACLO & DCLO.)
>
> So unplug that connector, and see if E70 (on K2, lower right corner) is
OK.
(Remember, the
pull-up will give it an Ok input with BUS ACLO
disconnected.) If yes, great, go check the main CPU clock.
Removing DCLO and ACLO from the PS to the bus may allow the CPU/clock to
work. Or it may not.
DCLO & ACLO behave as power-on-reset signals to the system. If they are
allowed to just float up as the power supply comes up you have no
guarantees as to the end result ('end' meaning the state of things after
the
power supply has come up), without doing an analysis
of the pertinent
logic
under their control.
JFETs are being used as the ACLO/DCLO control devices for a reason. In
contrast to bipolars, the normal/no-gate-voltage state of a JFET is
Source-
Drain conducting, thus the initial state at power-up
of ACLO-L & DCLO-L
will
be 0V/low-impedance-to-GND. The point is to maintain
that state until the
power supply levels are good so the logic can be forced into a known
state.
Those three comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp
Is that a typo? This is the H7140 not the H777.
generated by C14 and the constant-current circuit of
Q11.
What is supposed to happen:
- everything is initially 0V: V+5, ACLO, DCLO.
- power is switched on. Internal voltage levels begin to rise.
- after some delay, E4 trips first to start the +5 supply.
- after some more delay, E5 trips, de-asserting DCLO (DCLO =
High,+V).
- after some more delay, E6 trips, de-asserting ACLO (ACLO =
High,+V).
The delays are presumably of some order of mS.
-15V is the expected level from the E6 comparator output if AC is good. A
Gate-Drain short in Q14 would be allowing that out to the bus. JFETs can
be
flaky, a failed JFET wouldn't be a big surprise.
So E6.6 = Q14.G = -15V is expected after power-up but an additional
concern
would be that a G-D short allowed excessive current
from the bus through
the E6 comparator output and damaged E6, or if left on too long burned out
pull-up resistors on the CPU or bus terminator. However the LM301 is
supposed to have current limiting so those things may not have been
damaged.
I am a bit confused here. E6 is an opto-coupled isolator. Do you mean E9? It
doesn't look to me like Q14 is connected to anything that outputs -15V, but
Q15 is. A short in Q15 would surely be more plausible as the reason for -15V
on ACLO?
The scope could be used to observe what is going on with the +5, DCLO,
ACLO sequencing at power up (with bus pull-ups, but without CPU).
Removing only the ACLO PS-to-bus connection would allow DCLO to still
exercise it's proper POR control. Once bus-ACLO is disconnected from the
PS,
look for the clock LED after powering up with both
bus-ACLO open (pulled
high by bus & CPU) and bus-ACLO connected to GND. Manually
connecting/disconnecting bus-ACLO to GND after power-up will trigger the
CPU power-fail shutdown and disable the clock.
Given that ACLO is not actually connected to E70 and DCLO seems to be
operating correctly, I would think that disconnecting the connector is not
likely to help in this case.
I suspect I am going to have to check for shorts on the backplane and probe
the CPU module when it is powered.
Thanks
Rob
2:47 p.m.
On 2022-Mar-31, at 2:14 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Groan.
When this thread came up I went looking for the 11/24 schematic. I found the document I
linked earlier for the 11/24 and found 'the' +5 power supply. So apparently
I've been looking at the wrong +5V supply (H777) because the rest of you are indeed
looking at a different +5 supply (H7140), both of which are in that same 11/24 pdf
document.
And indeed, the ACLO control is Q15 in the H7140.
I really wish when people are asking for assistance or talking about a schematic or
circuit they would include a link/reference to exactly what they are looking at (a) so the
reader doesn't have to go scratching around to find it and (b) to avoid effort-wasting
screw-ups like this.
So yes, you can ignore a lot of the details I described, though some of the principals I
mentioned are still valid.
Those three
comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp
Is that a typo? This is the H7140 not the H777.
2 Apr
2 Apr
7:12 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Hilpert <bhilpert at shaw.ca>
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:48
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards
On 2022-Mar-31, at 2:14 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Groan.
When this thread came up I went looking for the 11/24 schematic. I found
the document I linked earlier for the 11/24 and found 'the' +5 power
supply.
Those
three comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp
Is that a typo? This is the H7140 not the H777. So apparently I've been looking at the wrong +5V
supply (H777) because the
rest of you are indeed looking at a different +5 supply (H7140), both of
which
are in that same 11/24 pdf document.
And indeed, the ACLO control is Q15 in the H7140.
I really wish when people are asking for assistance or talking about a
schematic or circuit they would include a link/reference to exactly what
they
are looking at (a) so the reader doesn't have to
go scratching around to
find it
and (b) to avoid effort-wasting screw-ups like this.
Sorry about the wasted time. I think I did say at one point that it was the
H7140, but that will be way down the thread somewhere. I will use PDF page
numbers in future.
So yes, you can ignore a lot of the details I described, though some of
the
principals I mentioned are still valid.
754
days inactive
756
days old
4 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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bhilpert＠shaw.ca -
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robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com