19 Sep
2004
19 Sep
'04
5:26 p.m.
I told ya so!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_hi_te/…
ath_4
Mon Sep 6, 5:17 PM ET
By MARK NIESSE, Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA - Long the most common way to store letters, homework and other
computer files, the floppy disk is going the way of the horse upon the
arrival of the car: it'll hang around but never hold the same relevance
in everyday life.
And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology
must go on.
Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer
makers say.
Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in
spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies
are available on request for $10 to $20 extra.
"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell
spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a
floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive."
A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't
have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the
benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops
don't come with a floppy.
More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy,
said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard.
"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she
said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready
to make that move."
Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so
comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers
outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South.
At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary
equipment, but no floppy.
"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the
last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta
said.
But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their
floppies go.
"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a
pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway.
"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat
Blaisdell.
The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact
discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and
are less likely to break.
Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used
to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around.
"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and
computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old
8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never
label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in
and looked."
In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long.
They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word
processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of
700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and
256 megabytes.
And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used
to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple
Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its
Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s.
Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop
including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model
in 1998.
"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow
demise,"
said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology
consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were
screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted."
It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs.
Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the
DVD would be obsolete within a decade.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
19 Sep
19 Sep
5:39 p.m.
Hmmm... well here's a two-part story (the page 2 link is at the bottom) that I
wrote back in March 2003: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1577143,00.asp
- Evan
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
I told ya so!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_hi_te/…
ath_4
Mon Sep 6, 5:17 PM ET
By MARK NIESSE, Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA - Long the most common way to store letters, homework and other
computer files, the floppy disk is going the way of the horse upon the
arrival of the car: it'll hang around but never hold the same relevance
in everyday life.
And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology
must go on.
Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer
makers say.
Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in
spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies
are available on request for $10 to $20 extra.
"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell
spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a
floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive."
A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't
have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the
benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops
don't come with a floppy.
More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy,
said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard.
"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she
said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready
to make that move."
Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so
comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers
outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South.
At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary
equipment, but no floppy.
"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the
last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta
said.
But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their
floppies go.
"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a
pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway.
"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat
Blaisdell.
The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact
discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and
are less likely to break.
Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used
to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around.
"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and
computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old
8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never
label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in
and looked."
In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long.
They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word
processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of
700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and
256 megabytes.
And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used
to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple
Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its
Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s.
Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop
including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model
in 1998.
"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow
demise,"
said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology
consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were
screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted."
It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs.
Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the
DVD would be obsolete within a decade.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
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5:52 p.m.
I told ya so!
Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had
floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say
this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest
of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
20 Sep
20 Sep
2:58 p.m.
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I
purchased had
floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say
this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest
of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive.
I still use them all the time. It's still the quickest and easiest way to
transfer files (that can fit on them of course).
I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
3:39 p.m.
>> Sellam Ismail,
>>
>> I still use them [floppy's] all the time. It's still the quickest and
>> easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on them of course).
>>
>> I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files.
Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated
transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely.
4:50 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever
I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7
generations behind whatever is current today. I generally use hardware
until it wears out completely. That means I have lots of older computers
around in use all the time (some of it even on topic here). Either I'm
very cheap or I believe in using something until it can't be reasonably
used anymore (and then I try to stretch it out some more ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
>> Sellam
Ismail,
>>
>> I still use them [floppy's] all the time. It's still the quickest and
>> easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on them of course).
>>
>> I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files.
Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated
transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely. 
5:59 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever
I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7
generations behind whatever is current today. I generally use hardware
until it wears out completely. That means I have lots of older computers
around in use all the time (some of it even on topic here). Either I'm
very cheap or I believe in using something until it can't be reasonably
used anymore (and then I try to stretch it out some more ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
I use floppies for machines that don't have any other easy method of
transferring data (no hd, cdrom, or network connection) such as my 8 bit
computers and some 16bit ones. Since it is still possible to get 5.25 and
3.5 DD disks in new condition we still have a way to go before the floppy is
completely dead.
Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth the time
to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps you
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
> >>> Sellam Ismail,
> >>>
> >>> I still use them [floppy's] all the time. It's still the
quickest
and
>> easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on
them of course).
>>
>> I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files.
Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated
transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely. from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs
for music and copying
other cd's.
If I used hardware until it wore out I would still be using a 1200 baud
modem! You have to upgrade some components because the speed increase is
worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run
software it was intended to run.
7:55 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote:
...
Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if
its not worth
the time
to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps
you
from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and
copying
other cd's.
Though this is close to OT (twice in one day!), I'd like to comment on
the concept of "backup"; though it takes place usually on new gear, it
totally pertains to old data, and is why we have so little of it!
In my substantial experience, "offline" backup systems are totally, 100%
useless for archival purposes. No machine-readable format has yet been
devised that can be relied upon to persist, period. It's a certainty
none of the crap we buy today will be one either. None.
Exceptional feats, like recovering data from 20-year-old-tapes, mean
nothing more than what they, are, exceptions to world-wide, near-total
loss to bit rot of magnetic media. For every one of those, there's 1000,
100,000 unreadable, lost, mislabelled, tapes containing data in some
inscrutable proprietary format.
Pressed CDs might last a truly long time, but unless there's a
wide-spread and earnest will to produce readers for them (yeah right)
for the long-haul, like there is for fiche/film, they'll go the way of
800bpi 1/2" tape and 3740 floppies.
So far, our long-term (100 year+) options are paper and fiche/film,
which ironically makes one of the oldest discrete-symbol mediums, paper
tape, also one of the longest-lived (and one of the lowest-density!)
Practically-speaking, I use an idea of John Gilmore's, which is brutally
simple: rotating spindles. Not only is it the most reliable system (not
component), it's obvious ephemeral nature is a CONSTANT DAILY REMINDER
of how little stands between our life's work and oblivion and how much
attention data retention requires.
* Like many people, I have machines (owned or shared) with 100% on time,
at home and on the net far away (three cities > 1000mi apart).
* Each computer has a disk drive for data. When that disk throws errors,
makes Bad Noises, or Inappropriate Heat, Etc, it is replaced with great
fanfare, ASAP. Occasionally there is no data loss.
* Every datum I have ever worked on that is machine-readable resides on
my laptop (not including most of my not-very-substantial music
collection, though the same applies here). All email sent and received
back to 1994 (with gaps) etc.
* Using appropriate software (scripts involving rsync) every single
computer has a copy of every single file, updated daily.
Note that this scheme automagically takes care of changes and occasional
improvements in technology and is largely independent of the technology.
It's not archival though, just longish-lived.
I supplement this with burned ISO-9660 CDROMs that I mail out in bundles
to friends in yet other cities, "just toss it up in a closet" that's
just a little added paranoia, but I don't expect those copies to be
useful beyond the next year or two. (The last dump though, gzip.tar of
only crucial, hand-selected "core" data, still took 8CDRs, so I will
probably stop this practice.)
Wildly multiple copies works (or worked) for printed books, sort of, but
with the explosion of digital data it's too hard to tell wheat from
chaff. At this point there really needs to be a *cultural* will to
preserve (librarians are our heroes!) and there was some U.S. gov't
effort in the past (the ruthless profiteers who run the U.S. now pretty
much rules out that, regardless of which party "wins"), but at this
point we all have to play Survivalist and make paper copies or
something.
I'm seriously thinking of printing on paper my entire website.
An aside, but strongly related, is this illuminating (to me) tidbit: OK
so my website has 1100+ hand-edited flat HTML files (vi) and another
3000 or so generated with a perl script. Every few years I ask
acknowledged web content experts about how I could more algorithmically
manage this stuff.
With no exception so far, all of the web experts give me sales spiels --
I talk about data, they talk about programs. Nothing I heave heard or
read about will handle importing existing flat-file data; worse, they
say silly things like "remove HTML header data and import each page"!
Not only is it mechanically impractical, the headers contain
hand-crafted data!
There's no talk of: what happens to my data when Program X is no longer
supported? How do I get my data out? What's the internal data
representation and how are relationships maintained? Ad nausem.
Flat files it will remain. Scripts easily export, verify, import data.
There's little motion I see towards actually SAVING things by anyone
except librarians, and no one listens to them or gives them any money.
10:36 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote:
> Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth
> the time
> to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps
> you
> from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and
> copying
> other cd's.
PLEASE tell me you don't archive data to DAT tapes! They're DAT and
8mm tapes are among the worst storage formats around. If you must
archive to tape, archive to DLT, and keep in mind that you should
refresh the tapes every 5 years.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
21 Sep
21 Sep
3:19 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
Exactly why is DAT such a bad storage format? And which variety of DAT are
you referring to (DDS,DDS2,DDS3,DDS4..etc)?
DLT tapes are expensive, so are higher capacity drives even on eBay. I don't
run a business, my backups are just personal files and images of software
disks used on my various computers. In the past I have used Quic80 Colorado
tapes (120mb), TRAVAN drives (JUNK), CDR's (back when a blank was $8 and the
burner was $1000), and even floppy disks themselves (hell I even used a
utility that formatted 360k 5.25 disks into 800k). I never had a problem
reading anything back from a cdr or tape, a few floppies (1.44mb mostly)
ended up having bitrot but the data could be found on the net or from fellow
collectors (5.25 disks seem more reliable to me). Every so many years I dump
the media back to the HD and archive it on a newer media that has more
storage space while keeping the original media on the shelf just in case,
eventually every tape will go bad or the drives that can read them (along
with software) will be hard to find. Using older technology (My 2 DAT drives
are Just DDS2 4/8GB) limits the amount of data that fits on a tape so even
if 1 tape does go bad its only a small part of the overall collection, plus
you know how reliable the drive brand and tapes are from people who used
that media in critical situations when it was cutting edge. Believe me I
would have a different strategy backing up CAD files that are one of a kind
compared to backing up my copy of Ultima III from my C64, one is
irreplaceable while the other can be downloaded off the NET if needed.
On Mon,
2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote:
> Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth
> the time
> to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps
> you
> from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and
> copying
> other cd's.
PLEASE tell me you don't archive data to DAT tapes! They're DAT and
8mm tapes are among the worst storage formats around. If you must
archive to tape, archive to DLT, and keep in mind that you should
refresh the tapes every 5 years.
Zane
10:04 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:19:14 -0400
"Teo Zenios" <teoz(a)neo.rr.com> wrote:
Exactly why is DAT such a bad storage format?
Because the tapes get unreadable quite often and quick. The drives fail
nearly as often as the tapes. DAT is write only backup.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
2:11 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
Exactly why is
DAT such a bad storage format?
Because the tapes get unreadable quite often and
quick. The drives fail
nearly as often as the tapes. DAT is write only backup. 
5:33 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 20:36 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
FWIW, I've never had a problem with reliability of the tapes - it's the
drives which fail ridiculously often.
These days I have enough storage that I backup to spare 'offline' hard
drives and 2 copies of everything on DAT, plus I keep two working DAT
drives around at all times just in case one suddenly dies on me (as
happened *again* just a few weeks ago).
As with Teo I use DDS2 drives so the amount of data on any one tape
isn't *that* big (for the same reason I use lots of small-capacity hard
disks rather than one big one)
On Mon,
2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote:
> Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth
> the time
> to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps
> you
> from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and
> copying
> other cd's.
PLEASE tell me you don't archive data to DAT tapes! They're DAT and
8mm tapes are among the worst storage formats around. If you must archive to tape, archive to DLT,
I still regret selling my DLT 7000 drive a few years ago. I got it free
when it was thrown out from my old work; it had been dropped and the
mechanism shifted inside and jammed - only someone had lost the
paperwork and it couldn't be returned under warranty so just got
chucked. Ten minutes with a screwdriver and it was operational again.
Wish I'd kept it now...
cheers,
Jules
4:05 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 07:55 PM 9/20/2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
Though this is close to OT (twice in one day!), I'd
like to comment on
the concept of "backup"; though it takes place usually on new gear, it
totally pertains to old data, and is why we have so little of it!*
Today's backup problems will be tomorrow's preservation problems,
so I think discussing backup, backup schemes, media, longevity,
etc. is always on topic here. I think the data explosion we've
been seeing will cripple PCs just as much as spyware and spam.
The average Joe will begin to experience catastrophic data loss and
it'll hurt. Recently I had to tell a young couple that their hard
disk was dead, dead and they'd lost years of baby pictures and that
their only slim hope was $1000 data recovery. Their system had a
CD-R but they never used it.
I see small businesses whose data is growing faster than they can
handle. A dentist client of mine backs-up gigs nightly. DLT is
expensive and it's barely fast enough to save it all during the
office's off-hours. He's creating more and more larger files
faster than he ever did before, yet I'm not convinced that his
industry-specific package can handle it in the long run, nevermind
whether it'll handle corruption down the line. Or all the small
businesses with dozens of PCs that have never been backed-up.
They're a horror.
Sure, a big IT company can throw SANs and admins at these problems,
but the average Joe Homeuser or Jane Smallbiz can't.
I look back on my own data backups, too - DATs, Exabytes, DLTs,
spare drives of each of those, and every time I've tried to examine
old tapes I find many that are unreadable. I can't even find the
time to erase them all. As they say, "Unless you have actually
restored from your backups, you only *think* you have backups."
Like Tom, the only stuff I trust is backups on live disks. I've been
giving the same advice to clients, too - hard disks are cheap enough
that I can set up Joe Homeuser with a spare HD and TaskZip to
automatically archive a copy of N versions of their My Documents
folder. Apart from catastrophic damage to the PC, it'll add
a layer of protection to save their data. That's a step in the
right direction.
But I bet that if I had a way to burn all my data to redundant
Mylar punched tape, I'd sleep better. It's a shame that pressed
CDs never really dropped much in price in the last decade. I was
thinking about that as a backup medium just the other day.
As for Web management of large volumes of flat text, images and multi-format
docs, I suspect there's a handcrafted path involving PHP. MySQL
and postNuke types of solutions, but I don't have time for a new career.
- John
10:40 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote:
Sure, a big IT company can throw SANs and admins at
these problems,
but the average Joe Homeuser or Jane Smallbiz can't.
This service managed to survive the dot-bomb:
http://www.xdrive.com/
It creates a drive letter on your system that is symbolically linked to
some storage space sitting on their servers.
Very cool, very handy. Might be a good solution for home or small
businesses to back up files off-site.
Hell, *I* should start using it!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:12 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 08:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
This service managed to survive the dot-bomb:
http://www.xdrive.com/
It creates a drive letter on your system that is symbolically linked to
some storage space sitting on their servers.
A useful service I admit. You could implement this by simulating a
remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS.
I wonder (only academically) how they handle privacy, access by
authorities, etc. For data integrity, I assume they at least run RAID5
and hopefully multiply geographically diverse data centers (but I would
ask not assume if I were to use them -- and get it in writing :-)
It's kinda like paying for a burial plot. Fresh flowers and cut grass,
but you and all your relatives are dead and stop paying, they dig you up
and toss your bones in an anonymous pile.
Good for salesmammals on the road I suppose, but really, 10GB fits into
the smallest of laptops, and if you need 100GB of portable data, there's
DVD-Rs.
8:29 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 08:40, Vintage Computer Festival
wrote:
I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I think the
$9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for a cheap bastard like
me. I'm not sure how secure Samba is but it would be relatively
straight-forward to setup something like this on a Linux server. A quick
web search indicates the latest versions of Samba have security features.
This service managed to survive the dot-bomb:
http://www.xdrive.com/
It creates a drive letter on your system that is symbolically linked to
some storage space sitting on their servers.
A useful service I admit. You could implement this by simulating a
remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS. I wonder (only academically) how they handle privacy,
access by
authorities, etc. For data integrity, I assume they at least run RAID5
and hopefully multiply geographically diverse data centers (but I would
ask not assume if I were to use them -- and get it in writing :-)
Yeah, I would wonder the same. And if they had any agreement with law
enforcement that would be a complete deal killer for me.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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22 Sep
22 Sep
9:10 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 08:29 PM 9/21/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level
(5GB) I think the
$9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for a cheap bastard like
me. I'm not sure how secure Samba is but it would be relatively
straight-forward to setup something like this on a Linux server. A quick
web search indicates the latest versions of Samba have security features.
With all the p2p crud out there today, I wonder why no one's made
a dirt-simple way for Joe User to share filesystems over the net
with friends at the folder or drive-letter level. Shouldn't I be
able to drop a file in a folder of a trusted friend?
- John
11:47 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
>>
>> With all the p2p crud out there today, I wonder why no
>> one's made a dirt-simple way for Joe User to share
>> filesystems over the net with friends at the folder or
>> drive-letter level. Shouldn't I be able to drop a file in
>> a folder of a trusted friend?
>>
With Window, it is there already, the problem is that the security is so
easy to break....
Btw: Anyone out there using Wireless Access Points? Have you turned off
Broadcast of your SSID? Have you enabled WEP security? Do you think you are
now "fairly" secure? Think again......
1:18 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
With all the p2p crud out there today, I wonder why no
one's made
a dirt-simple way for Joe User to share filesystems over the net
with friends at the folder or drive-letter level. Shouldn't I be
able to drop a file in a folder of a trusted friend?
There's already a way of using Google's mail service as
a mounted file system under Linux.
Only 1GB though.
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
1:05 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
A useful
service I admit. You could implement this by simulating a
remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS.
I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I
think the $9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for
a cheap bastard like me. 
1:39 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
>>>> "patrick" == patrick
<Patrick> writes:
> > A useful service I admit. You could implement
this by simulating
> a > remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS.
>
> I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I think
> the $9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for a cheap
> bastard like me.
patrick> Funny you should say that Sellam. I've been thinking a bit
patrick> about their business model since the topic came up. If
patrick> they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate and cheaper than RAID 5 for
patrick> this application), and assuming they use "street" 73GB SCSI
patrick> hard drives, then, ignoring the processor the drives are
patrick> connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of
patrick> drives (a pair for 0+1, SCA), ...
Not to detract from your argument in this particular case, but...
RAID 5 is cheaper than RAID 1, because a larger fraction of the disk
capacity is useful capacity.
Also, if you want capacity, you should be looking at (S)ATA disk based
solutions, of which there are a bunch, not SCSI or FC based. SCSI and
FC are the ultra high performance technology point, not the high
capacity point.
paul
2:25 p.m.
New subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up
patrick> Funny you should say that Sellam.
I've been
thinking a bit patrick> about their business model since the
topic came up. If patrick> they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate
and cheaper than RAID 5 for patrick> this application), and
assuming they use "street" 73GB SCSI patrick> hard drives,
then, ignoring the processor the drives are patrick>
connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of
patrick> drives (a pair for 0+1, SCA), ...
Not to detract from your argument in this particular case, but...
Paul, I'm not really arguing a position, just puzzling over how they make it
possible to make enough money to be in business for as long as they've been.
RAID 5 is cheaper than RAID 1, because a larger
fraction of
the disk capacity is useful capacity.
I stand corrected! That's absolutely right.
Also, if you want capacity, you should be looking at
(S)ATA
disk based solutions, of which there are a bunch, not SCSI or
FC based. SCSI and FC are the ultra high performance
technology point, not the high capacity point.
Indeed, and I guess I'm kind of stuck on "classic" SAN hardware, which is
generally SCSI and FC. I think the really big SAN equipment is pretty much
all SCSI and FC, and I think for this application you need the economy of
scale that comes from a SAN with lots of drives and relatively few
processors, switches, and other supporting equipment. Every time you have
to add that non-storage stuff, you're just adding to cost of goods. I've
seen small SATA SANs, but not big 42-unit rack type things yet. Is anybody
making them yet? Using them?
Patrick
2:43 p.m.
New subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up
>>>> "patrick" == patrick
<Patrick> writes:
> Also, if you want capacity, you should be looking
at (S)ATA disk
> based solutions, of which there are a bunch, not SCSI or FC based.
> SCSI and FC are the ultra high performance technology point, not
> the high capacity point.
patrick> Indeed, and I guess I'm kind of stuck on "classic" SAN
patrick> hardware, which is generally SCSI and FC. I think the
patrick> really big SAN equipment is pretty much all SCSI and FC, and
patrick> I think for this application you need the economy of scale
patrick> that comes from a SAN with lots of drives and relatively few
patrick> processors, switches, and other supporting equipment. Every
patrick> time you have to add that non-storage stuff, you're just
patrick> adding to cost of goods. I've seen small SATA SANs, but not
patrick> big 42-unit rack type things yet. Is anybody making them
patrick> yet? Using them?
We make them, and our customers use them. 14 drive building blocks,
which combine into groups for bigger configurations (more space, more
speed). 4 unit groups (16 TB) are common. We have run internal tests
quite a lot larger than that.
Some people would like you to believe that iSCSI and SATA are only for
the low end. Don't believe them, it's not true.
paul
3:19 p.m.
New subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up
We make them, and our customers use them. 14 drive
building
blocks, which combine into groups for bigger configurations
(more space, more speed). 4 unit groups (16 TB) are common.
We have run internal tests quite a lot larger than that.
Cool! Thank you, Paul!!!
Some people would like you to believe that iSCSI and
SATA are
only for the low end. Don't believe them, it's not true.
We give Service Level Agreements to our customers, and so I for one don't
really care about what's considered low-end or high-end. I care about what
woks in my environment and doesn't make me drive to the facility at 2am (and
stay until the following 2am). We've got some of the so-called "high-end"
gear, and it's not that reliable, expensive to keep on maintenance, and the
manufacturer is unpleasant to deal with (they'll kill themselves to sell you
a unit, but the post-sales support experience is completely different).
Of course, the fact that I can get an SATA drive at my local CompUSA, where
they don't sell anything SCSI, let alone SCA, is an attractive notion.
Thanks for the tip/info!
Patrick
1:43 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Patrick/VCM SysOp wrote:
Funny you should say that Sellam. I've been
thinking a bit about their
business model since the topic came up. If they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate
and cheaper than RAID 5 for this application), and assuming they use
"street" 73GB SCSI hard drives, then, ignoring the processor the drives are
connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of drives (a pair
for 0+1, SCA), but they're selling it for less than $150. And that doesn't
Well, let's see here: 73GB / 5GB at the $9.95 level = about 14
subscriptions = $140 per month so they break even in 3 months. Not bad.
include the cost of the SAN, bandwidth, etc. SAN
manufacturer-branded
drives are even more expensive usually. I wonder where and how their
economy of scale is that makes it work. Maybe they're picking up Network
Appliances from eBay. :-)
There was an earlier comment about multiple data centers; doubtful, with
these economics.
Maybe they're just doing it dirt cheap Google-style: just throw a huge
number of cheap hard drives at the problem and use lots of mirroring. If
one fails, throw it out and replace it, then re-mirror.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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2:35 p.m.
New subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up
Well, let's see here: 73GB / 5GB at the $9.95
level = about
14 subscriptions = $140 per month so they break even in 3
months. Not bad.
True, but after adding the cost of the processors that manage those drives
(SAN or otherwise), plus networking hardware, a little bandwidth, and a few
headcount to keep it all glued together, it's an impressive achievement.
You have to work hard to keep all that overhead from eroding your margins
quickly.
Maybe they're just doing it dirt cheap
Google-style: just
throw a huge number of cheap hard drives at the problem and
use lots of mirroring. If one fails, throw it out and
replace it, then re-mirror.
It would have to be. I guess the real question is, what's controlling those
drives. At the scale at which I'm used to buying hardware, I think it
wouldn't play. Google-scale buying power is my geek wet dream.
One thing seems certain: they oversubscribe. That alone may be the answer.
Patrick
21 Sep
21 Sep
6:42 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated:
Very cool, very handy. Might be a good solution for home or small
businesses to back up files off-site.
Hell, *I* should start using it!
Currently, I take care of three websevers for a client. For backups I use
a fourth server elsewhere (I don't know where it's phycially located) that
uses rsync to backup all the sites on the three servers (nightly via
cron---once the initial backup is made, the nightly backup only takes about
10 minutes). We are expecting to get another server just for backups as
well.
-spc (It also helps that the webclients keep local copies of their
sites as well ... )
22 Sep
22 Sep
6:32 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 02:05, John Foust wrote:
Today's backup problems will be tomorrow's
preservation problems,
"Permanent" media (fiche, paper) are only part of the solution; none of
it's any good if you can't find it! Only one copy of the Dead Sea
Scrolls was found, and it is I think partially ruined; Archimedes
'Method' became a palimpsest, and few scholars are going to make that
much effort to recover Mary Programmer's scribblings.
I imagine something like a National Archive where every citizen was
allocated 6 cubic inches of deep vault, environmentally controlled
permanent storage plus indexing service, written into the U.S.
Constitution as an amendment. A 1/4" stack of 4x6" fiche. You could
appeal for more, based upon a very loose standard of merit, but everyone
would get space for love letters, baby pictures, favorite car, etc
suitably stored on fiche.
Copies could be requested and produced for a small fee, of ANYONE'S
fiche, based upon the index.
No data would ever be purged, ever.
I'm serious about this. Imagine what an incredible treasure it would be,
for a country's citizens to be able to retrieve any snapshot of any
person's work back to the beginning of (recorded) time.
For the 1% of us that generate large amounts of data, the national fiche
could be an index into larger stores, which could even be commercial or
private. Some would fail, but others could thrive by providing unique
services.
THEN you'd have the basis for real archiving.
7:26 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
I'm serious about this. Imagine what an incredible
treasure it would be,
for a country's citizens to be able to retrieve any snapshot of any
person's work back to the beginning of (recorded) time.
I like it. I'd like to see it happen. Unfortunately, it would require a
huge shift in the way our society looks at itself. I.E. we'd have to move
away from treasuring our possessions above all else and move towards
treasuring our memories and experiences above all else.
Good luck.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
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7:43 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jennings" <tomj(a)wps.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech(a)classiccmp.org>rg>;
"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 02:05, John Foust wrote:
A thousand years from now nobody is going to care about what 99.999% of the
population did during their lives. Unless you made some major contribution
to society (which would most likely be archived by your generation) or were
a figure that seen something major (also documented) who will ever look your
information up?
What people will want to know is what was common of the society as a whole,
this is where we need to archive all our inventions, sexual religion and
moral codes, laws, entertainment, commercial software, magazines, pricing of
goods, TV shows, movies, and public works information (building codes, road
layouts, piping standards, construction in general). All that is what made
us tick and the government keeps tabs on most of it.
Somebody will devise a system to document all of this digitally into an ever
growing database with the data on some kind of write once read many times
media deep in a bunker (or multiple archives) spread out all over the world
(or maybe the moon).
To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, if we didn't
find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think
it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of
everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put
together 1000 years from now?
Today's backup problems will be
tomorrow's preservation problems,
"Permanent" media (fiche, paper) are only part of the solution; none of
it's any good if you can't find it! Only one copy of the Dead Sea
Scrolls was found, and it is I think partially ruined; Archimedes
'Method' became a palimpsest, and few scholars are going to make that
much effort to recover Mary Programmer's scribblings.
I imagine something like a National Archive where every citizen was
allocated 6 cubic inches of deep vault, environmentally controlled
permanent storage plus indexing service, written into the U.S.
Constitution as an amendment. A 1/4" stack of 4x6" fiche. You could
appeal for more, based upon a very loose standard of merit, but everyone
would get space for love letters, baby pictures, favorite car, etc
suitably stored on fiche.
Copies could be requested and produced for a small fee, of ANYONE'S
fiche, based upon the index.
No data would ever be purged, ever.
I'm serious about this. Imagine what an incredible treasure it would be,
for a country's citizens to be able to retrieve any snapshot of any
person's work back to the beginning of (recorded) time.
For the 1% of us that generate large amounts of data, the national fiche
could be an index into larger stores, which could even be commercial or
private. Some would fail, but others could thrive by providing unique
services.
THEN you'd have the basis for real archiving.
8:30 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 17:43, Teo Zenios wrote:
A thousand years from now nobody is going to care
about what 99.999% of the
population did during their lives. Unless you made some major contribution
to society (which would most likely be archived by your generation) or were
a figure that seen something major (also documented) who will ever look your
information up?
I totally disagree. First, it presupposes that people today know in
advance what people of some far-flung time will care about. Second, a
few hundred million people making utterly personal and seemingly random
deposits of information would tell VAST amounts about that culture.
Three, often 'valuable' isn't obvious until long after the event. Four,
it's the only honest system, everything else implies an agenda,
including self-serving political ones (no deposits by women, "of
course", or N-skinned people, etc).
What people will want to know is what was common of
the society as a whole,
this is where we need to archive all our inventions, sexual religion and
moral codes, laws, entertainment, commercial software, magazines, pricing of
goods, TV shows, movies, and public works information (building codes, road
layouts, piping standards, construction in general). All that is what made
us tick and the government keeps tabs on most of it.
Precisely what individual people will deposit!
Somebody will devise a system to document all of this
digitally
Huh?!
To me archives should be made up of just the important
stuff,
I can only assume this is a flippant remark -- who could possibly decide
what of an entire civilization is worth saving?
if we didn't
find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think
it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of
everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put
together 1000 years from now?
Take a look at the stuff that provides the most information on how
people in some long-gone civilization lived -- pots with food remnants,
doodles, clothing, burials, tools -- all of it ephemera. The Big Stuff
-- statues, buildings, etc -- there's no problem saving those (well, no
*new* problem saving those :-) since they are popular, expensive, etc.
Clearly, I don't expect the U.S. to do this, what with our national
right-to-profit movement defining what is valuable. The U.S. can't see
beyond the next corporate annual report at the moment.
I'm not holding my breath.
Our legacy will be our voluminous garbage dumps, the only honest scheme
we have yet worked out to show what we have done. Cogitate that one for
a while!
23 Sep
23 Sep
8:56 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 08:30 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote:
Our legacy will be our voluminous garbage dumps, the
only honest scheme
we have yet worked out to show what we have done. Cogitate that one for
a while!
And there's been plenty of science fiction on this topic, too.
- John
2:10 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 08:30 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote:
That sounds interesting John. Do you know of any titles I could look
into?
g.
--
"I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!"
Proud owner of 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
Our legacy will be our voluminous garbage dumps,
the only honest scheme
we have yet worked out to show what we have done. Cogitate that one for
a while!
And there's been plenty of science fiction on this topic, too.
22 Sep
22 Sep
8:40 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
To me archives should be made up of just the important
stuff, if we didn't
find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think
it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of
everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put
together 1000 years from now?
Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people and
places and things from 1000 years ago.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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9:28 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
Sellam > Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people
and
Sellam > places and things from 1000 years ago.
I have to throw in my two cents worth here too. I find it quite fascinating
to be able to see and feel and touch things from long ago. I have a lock of
hair from my dad's first haircut around 1930. I have his little shoes from
when he was a baby. I have many letters written by my great great great
grandmother to her family back in Virginia after she moved to Iowa and
lived among the buffalo and native Americans in the 1840s. I have old
photographs of family members from the 1870s. I have the tools my great
grandfather used back in the 1800s. I play old fiddle tunes on the same
fiddle that my great grandfather and his uncle were fiddling on from the
1850s to the 1930s. I have my grandfather's school papers and books from
1910-1915. All of these things tell a story of those who came before us
and give us the personal view into their lives, especially the old letters
that tell what they ate, what kind of flowers and vegetables they planted,
the fact that the women complained about how men didn't have any use for
vegetables until they were cooked and on their plate (in 1870), and lots
of other stuff. I have repaired my dad's toy trains from the 1930s
and I run them at Christmas and the modern small kids still marvel
at them and like to press the button that makes the whistle blow. When
I was in my 20s a few decades ago, I wrote down all the stories that the
old folks told me about our families back years ago.
Does everyone care about this stuff? No. Do I care? Yes. I will find a
worthy person a generation or two after me to pass it on to (hopefully!).
I guess that's why I am working to rebuild an old computer system. It's
a way to preserve something fascinating from my past and hopefully have
it available to anyone who might be interested in knowing what the
academic computer world was like in the 1970s.
The past, the present, and the future are all part of one continuous,
never ending story. It's up to us to preserve things for those who
come after us. It's up to those who come after us to determine what
they are interested in from the things we leave.
I suppose I've rambled again......
Ashley
To me archives should be made up of just the
important stuff,
if we didn't
find it important enough to save it, people 1000
years from now
will think
it is even less important. Who wants to dig
through a trillion
pictures of
> everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put
> together 1000 years from now? 
25 Sep
25 Sep
4:46 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ashley Carder" <wacarder(a)usit.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:28 AM
Subject: RE: archiving as opposed to backing up
people
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
Sellam > Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of To me archives should be made up of just the
important stuff,
if we didn't
find it important enough to save it, people 1000
years from now
will think
it is even less important. Who wants to dig
through a trillion
pictures of
> everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put
> together 1000 years from now? and
Sellam > places and things from 1000 years ago.
The past, the present, and the future are all part of
one continuous,
never ending story. It's up to us to preserve things for those who
come after us. It's up to those who come after us to determine what
they are interested in from the things we leave.
I suppose I've rambled again......
Ashley
It comes as no great surprise to find that people on this list dedicated to
preserving old computers should also preserve other old items.
When they get around to refining the theory of evolution , they may find
that the people on this list are descended not from the ape but from the
squirrel. :^)
Geoff.
22 Sep
22 Sep
11:56 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
Festival
You can see pictures of people and places and things from 1000 years ago,
its called art, architecture, and artifacts. One of the reasons people are
so interested in the past is because of the little information that has
survived plus their need to learn things nobody else knows. I have read and
seen lots of pictures on ancient Greece but nothing beats climbing up the
road to the Acropolis to see it yourself even if it is a shell of what it
really looked like ages ago. Same with standing on the center stone of a
1000+ year old amphitheater that the ancient storytellers used for famous
plays. I would love to climb an Inca ruin someday and look out into the
countryside for miles an miles and ponder what drove the religious people to
offer human sacrifices on the very spot you stand on.
I mentioned the finger paintings because every married friend I knew with
kids loved to show off those finger paintings on their refrigerator to
anybody within eyesight of them, and I could care less. Unless its your kids
painting you really don't care. If everybody archived those (which they
would since it meant something to them) would anybody ever bother looking at
them in 1000 years? There is such a thing as too much information, sensory
overload. If enough material survives from today so that people from 1000
years from now are a little curious about us then that is good. Let the
archeologists dig in our trash pits to see what we read, ate, tools we used,
fashion we wore, books we read etc. If we lay everything out for them
(assuming they can make heads or tails out of it) there is no mystique to
it, nothing to ponder, no need to dig up the past and to see for themselves
what it was all about. The best thing is for people to read our history from
the victors side and then do dig up the vanquished to see what really
happened. People always talk about Atlantis because its something mythical
to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would be like
reading 10 years on income tax forms. Save what we think is important and
let other generations go dig up what they think was important about us.
I really think people here collect computers because deep inside it means
something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others. Do you
really want to document every single thing we treasure about a specific
machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could just look
it up as needed, or do you really wish something important was forgotten
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
> To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, if we
didn't
> find it important enough to save it, people 1000
years from now will
think
> it is even less important. Who wants to dig
through a trillion pictures
of
everyone's
pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put
together 1000 years from now?
Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people and
places and things from 1000 years ago.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer from the archive so that somebody decides to find one,
put it together, and
find out what the hunk of metal really does?
23 Sep
23 Sep
12:44 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 21:56, Teo Zenios wrote:
People always talk about Atlantis because its
something mythical
to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would
be like
reading 10 years on income tax forms.
Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do
remain will be more interesting?!
I really think people here collect computers because
deep inside it
means
something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others.
I agree that's probably true to some degree, large or small.
Do you
really want to document every single thing we treasure about a
specific
machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could
just look
it up as needed,
Well, yes!
or do you really wish something important was
forgotten
from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it
together, and
find out what the hunk of metal really does?
I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave
puzzles of the present for the future to decode?!
1:40 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jennings" <tomj(a)wps.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
What a boring world that will be, like playing an old game you never seen
with the complete walkthrough in your hands never having to figure anything
out on your own.
Yes why not, give them all the pieces and hopefully a few people will put
the puzzle together and test it out. People today have no reason to build
egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our
present technology. The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were
built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything
was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people
like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our
computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their
society (in our crude forms) but a few people will be putting the puzzle
together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be
interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It
doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life
that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of
people 1000 years from now.
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 21:56, Teo Zenios wrote:
No, I mean describe the Commodore 64 (as an example) enough so that somebody
might be interested enough to go dig one up and be able to repair it as
needed to run it. If we saved every C64 in mint condition so that people
1000 years from now are tripping over them still, nobody will want to use
one (just like people here today don't even want to look at a common 486 PC
running windows 3.11, but will fall all over themselves to get parts for
machines that are not common). Time along with apathy by the next
generations will end up loosing what we hold dear to us, our job is to leave
enough clues and tell a good enough story that future generations will want
to know more.
People always talk about Atlantis because its
something mythical
to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would
be like
reading 10 years on income tax forms.
Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do
remain will be more interesting?! I really think
people here collect computers because deep inside it
means
something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others.
I agree that's probably true to some degree, large or small.
Do you
really want to document every single thing we treasure about a
specific
machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could
just look
it up as needed,
Well, yes! or do you really wish something important was
forgotten
from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it
together, and
find out what the hunk of metal really does?
I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave
puzzles of the present for the future to decode?! 
2:11 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words:
[snip]
...People today have no reason to build
egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our
present technology.
But not with our present labor force. A *lot* of slaves were needed to
build the pyramids, great wall of China, etc.
The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they
were
built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything
was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people
like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our
computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their
society (in our crude forms)...
Says who? If an global EMP pops all of the 486+ machines, but the older
tech survives, it would be a lot more important for people to not have to
take an extra 50 years to figure it out again.
Do I have a historical reference to this? Sure.
Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the Earth was round
and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to that knowledge was
unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again thought the world
was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had they access to the
Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd bet they kept
their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. advances (or wars
averted) would have been possible.
but a few people will be putting the puzzle
together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be
interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It
doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life
that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of
people 1000 years from now.
Yea, and if (once again) they think the world is flat & the moon is made of
green cheese, it'll be one hell of a step *backwards* for mankind! Why
should we relegate our progeny to generations of ignorance due to our lack
of planning?
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
3 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
A Global EMP would shut down the entire industrial world, everything of
importance is powered buy chips faster then a 486 at some critical point in
the system. Where would you even start rebuilding and would it be built the
same way it was?
of
Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these
words:
The people who built the Pyramids and the Great Wall were not slaves, but
citizens fullfilling their "tax" for the ruling party. If we threw the same
amount of cash as we have dumped into the Iraq war we could build the
specialized equipment needed to create the great pyramids and hire the
smaller labor force needed to complete it, technology isn't the problem just
logistics and money and carefull planning would take care of that.
[snip]
...People today have no reason to build
egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our
present technology.
But not with our present labor force. A *lot* of slaves were needed to
build the pyramids, great wall of China, etc.
> The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how
they were
>built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how
everything
>was done and spend time and effort figuring it out
and quite a few people
>like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our
>computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for
their
society (in our
crude forms)...
Says who? If an global EMP pops all of the 486+ machines, but the older
tech survives, it would be a lot more important for people to not have to
take an extra 50 years to figure it out again. Do I have a historical reference to this? Sure.
Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the Earth was
round
and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references
to that knowledge
was
unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once
again thought the
world
was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had
they access to the
Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd bet they kept
their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. advances (or wars
averted) would have been possible.
The Roman world collapsed because of barbarian invasion and the aftermath of
100's of years of illiterates running their small chunk of land followed by
religion as government (burning people as heretics if they even mentioned
the world was flat). That is a problem with society and the role of
religion, not with archives (same church that doesn't believe in evolution
TODAY).
> but a few people will be putting the puzzle
>together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be
>interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It
>doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in
life
>that are so obvious to us and never documented
will puzzle the hell out
of
people 1000
years from now.
Yea, and if (once again) they think the world is flat & the moon is made green cheese, it'll be one hell of a step
*backwards* for mankind! Why
should we relegate our progeny to generations of ignorance due to our lack
of planning?
Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a global nuclear
war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you were talking
about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever
happened?
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
9:22 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
>> (burning people as heretics if they even
mentioned
the world was flat).
Um...isnt that backwards....
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios
>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:01 AM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>> <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:11 AM
>> Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
>>
>>
>> > Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words:
>> > >[snip]
>> > >...People today have no reason to build
>> > >egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we
>> wanted to with our
>> > >present technology.
>> >
>> > But not with our present labor force. A *lot* of slaves
>> were needed to
>> > build the pyramids, great wall of China, etc.
>> >
>>
>> The people who built the Pyramids and the Great Wall were
>> not slaves, but
>> citizens fullfilling their "tax" for the ruling party. If
>> we threw the same
>> amount of cash as we have dumped into the Iraq war we could
>> build the
>> specialized equipment needed to create the great pyramids
>> and hire the
>> smaller labor force needed to complete it, technology isn't
>> the problem just
>> logistics and money and carefull planning would take care of that.
>>
>>
>> > > The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were
>> > >built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how
>> everything
>> > >was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and
>> quite a few people
>> > >like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things
>> were done. Our
>> > >computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's,
>> not needed for
>> their
>> > >society (in our crude forms)...
>> >
>> > Says who? If an global EMP pops all of the 486+ machines,
>> but the older
>> > tech survives, it would be a lot more important for
>> people to not have to
>> > take an extra 50 years to figure it out again.
>>
>> A Global EMP would shut down the entire industrial world,
>> everything of
>> importance is powered buy chips faster then a 486 at some
>> critical point in
>> the system. Where would you even start rebuilding and would
>> it be built the
>> same way it was?
>>
>> > Do I have a historical reference to this? Sure.
>> >
>> > Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew*
>> the Earth was
>> round
>> > and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to
>> that knowledge
>> was
>> > unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again
>> thought the
>> world
>> > was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had
>> they access to the
>> > Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd
>> bet they kept
>> > their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech.
>> advances (or wars
>> > averted) would have been possible.
>>
>> The Roman world collapsed because of barbarian invasion and
>> the aftermath of
>> 100's of years of illiterates running their small chunk of
>> land followed by
>> religion as government (burning people as heretics if they
>> even mentioned
>> the world was flat). That is a problem with society and the role of
>> religion, not with archives (same church that doesn't
>> believe in evolution
>> TODAY).
>>
>>
>> > > but a few people will be putting the puzzle
>> > >together just to see what we did and why and alot of
>> people will be
>> > >interested in reading and contemplating the
>> archeologists findings. It
>> > >doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic
>> things we do in
>> life
>> > >that are so obvious to us and never documented will
>> puzzle the hell out
>> of
>> > >people 1000 years from now.
>> >
>> > Yea, and if (once again) they think the world is flat &
>> the moon is made
>> of
>> > green cheese, it'll be one hell of a step *backwards* for
>> mankind! Why
>> > should we relegate our progeny to generations of
>> ignorance due to our lack
>> > of planning?
>>
>> Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a
>> global nuclear
>> war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you
>> were talking
>> about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever
>> happened?
>>
>>
>> > Laterz,
>> > Roger "Merch" Merchberger
>> >
>> > --
>> > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
>> > zmerch(a)30below.com
>>
>>
10:39 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think
after a global nuclear
war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you were talking
about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever
happened?
Asteroids don't explode. They impact.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
12:55 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
Festival
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
> Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a global
nuclear
war or large
asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you were talking
about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever
happened?
Asteroids don't explode. They impact.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska
explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a
nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation).
1:24 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
>>>> "Teo" == Teo Zenios
<teoz(a)neo.rr.com> writes:
> Asteroids don't explode. They impact.
Teo> Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the
Teo> Tunguska explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that
Teo> behaved just like a nuclear bomb does today (intense energy,
Teo> heatwave, shockwave, radiation).
That's not right. Heat and energy and shockwave, yes. A big rock
coming in at high speed will do that. Radiation (i.e., ionizing
radiation) -- not possible.
There are some theories about it being an antimatter object -- *that*
would give you radiation, for sure.
paul
3:39 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
My last post on the subject...
You can't predict the future. You can't always know not only what will
be "interesting", but you can't even know what things will mean. Entire
worldviews and paradigms change.
Read Thomas Kuhn's THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS, for example.
It's really short.
No matter what we save, or how we save it, it will embody biases,
prejudices, preferences, etc. "Save everything" (sic) as an overriding
philosophy goes towards preventing a lot of knowable and preventable
storage/retreival problems.
It's all moot anyways because there's clearly no will in my country to
think about culture, anyways. You can do what you want.
9:20 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
>>
>> Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the
>> Earth was round
>> and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to
>> that knowledge was
>> unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again
>> thought the world
>> was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had they
>> access to the
>> Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd
>> bet they kept
>> their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech.
>> advances (or wars
>> averted) would have been possible.
>>
Or wars caused, or techonologies NOT invented because what they found was
"good enough".
Be careful of "what if" analysis.......
25 Sep
25 Sep
5:03 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks
*knew* the Earth was
round
and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references
to that knowledge
was
unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once
again thought the
world
was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had
they access to the
Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd bet they kept
their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. advances (or wars
averted) would have been possible.
The library at Alexandria ( I think it was ) was destroyed by fire and a lot
of old knowledge in the form of scrolls was lost at that time .
Geoff.
11:26 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
The library at Alexandria ( I think it was ) was
destroyed by fire and a
lot of old knowledge in the form of scrolls was lost at that time .
What Happened to the Ancient Library of Alexandria
"The Bibliotheca Alexandrina (BA) is organizing an international seminar
on the Fate of the Ancient Library of Alexandria entitled What Happened to
the Ancient Library of Alexandria?, 26-28 September 2004, at the
Bibliotheca Alexandrina Conference Center, East Hall. The seminar will be
held within the framework of the Alexandria Project, a research project
initiated by the Bibliotheca Alexandrina for the study and documentation
of the Ancient Library of Alexandria, Alexandrian scholarship, and other
topics related to the history and civilization of ancient Alexandria.
"In adopting the fate of the Ancient Library as the seminar's main
subject, the BA aims at presenting afresh, a highly specialized
discussion and analysis of main sources in their original languages,
related to the diverse aspects and episodes of that long disputed topic."
http://www.bibalex.org/fateseminar/
If you're going to be anywhere near Egypt this weekend then this would
probably be a really cool seminar to attend.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
7:01 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
http://www.bibalex.org/fateseminar/
If you're going to be anywhere near Egypt this weekend then this would
probably be a really cool seminar to attend.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
Chance would be a fine thing , wife and daughters on holiday in Greece ,
I've got work - currently home alone drinking single malt !
# # Looks really good . I suppose a recent modern
equivalent would be the Taliban destroying those ancient
^ Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Thanks for
the link.
""""""""""
Geoff.
26 Sep
26 Sep
1:41 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
Chance would be a fine thing , wife and daughters on
holiday in Greece ,
I've got work - currently home alone drinking single malt !
# # Looks really good . I suppose a recent modern
equivalent would be the Taliban destroying those ancient
^ Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Thanks for
the link.
""""""""""
I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to
be looted while they secured the oil fields.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
3:34 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
Festival
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
> Chance would be a fine thing , wife and daughters on holiday in Greece ,
> I've got work - currently home alone drinking single malt !
> # # Looks really good . I suppose a recent
modern
> equivalent would be the Taliban destroying those
ancient
> ^ Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Thanks
for
the link.
""""""""""
I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to
be looted while they secured the oil fields.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case
of tunnel vision.
Geoff.
2:20 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 04:34 AM 9/26/2004, you wrote:
So, if your house was burning you'd run in and rescue your classic computer
on the first trip and your daughter on the second trip?
The Iraqi's will receive a great deal more benefit from the oil than the
museums.
Oh, and who was it that was looting the museums?
Ed K.
I think a more
apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to
be looted while they secured the oil fields.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case
of tunnel vision.
27 Sep
27 Sep
2:10 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Kelleher" <Pres(a)macro-inc.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case
computer
At 04:34 AM 9/26/2004, you wrote:
> > I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of
Baghdad
to
be looted while they secured the oil fields.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
of tunnel
vision.
So, if your house was burning you'd run in and rescue your classic on the first trip and your daughter on the second
trip?
The Iraqi's will receive a great deal more benefit from the oil than the
museums.
Oh, and who was it that was looting the museums?
Ed K.
In this case it was not our house to look after. Iraq wasn't bombed into
oblivion and the police force was not disbanded so they should have guarded
their own museums. From what I recall collectors had made lists of what was
to be stolen before the government fell and it was most likely people
working inside those museums that did the looting. Most thieves would have
broken into the banks looking for gold and US dollars that are much easier
to fence then a one of a kind 2000 year old pieces of history. Since Sadam
was eager to torch Kuwait's oilfields when we liberated that country people
in the military here figured he would do the same to his own wells (kind of
like Hitler destroying anything of value in Germany when it was over run).
The last thing Bush wanted was to liberate Iraq (which was falling apart
because of bombs and blockades) and not have a viable income stream to fix
the place up (assuming he cared about the place at all and was not looking
to cut of Sadams head and give it to his daddy).
Did anyone expect 125,000 troops to be able to police a large country of
25,000,000 while protecting every single government run organization and
sealing the borders?
7:44 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 01:41 AM 9/26/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the
museums of Baghdad to
be looted while they secured the oil fields.
Over here, they'll fight years-long battles to preserve Civil War
battlefields from development. Fields where one battle took place!
Over there, I doubt that 30,000+ years of archaeological history
ever figured into where they decided to drop bombs. It was not
a layer in the intelligence info.
Iraq is a fine example of random pockets of preservation of
ages-old data. Used cuneiform tablets were scattered like
scraps of paper. I've always wanted to buy one on eBay, but
never quite trusted the provenance you find there. I'd almost
want to pull it from the ground myself - but that can be planted, too.
- John
23 Sep
23 Sep
10:34 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
I don't remember advocating keeping every Commodore 64 or every 486 PC
perfectly preserved. We were talking about the value of having
photographs from 1000 years ago. There is a huge difference.
What a boring world that will be, like playing an old game you never seen
with the complete walkthrough in your hands never having to figure anything
out on your own.
You're comparing the importance of our cultural heritage and history to
Zork?
But what is the value in leaving such puzzles for future generations, if
only to give them something to amuse themselves by? Will there not be
word jumbles or crossword puzzles in the future?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Wow, so
you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do
remain will be more interesting?!
No, I mean describe the Commodore 64 (as an example) enough so that somebody
might be interested enough to go dig one up and be able to repair it as
needed to run it. If we saved every C64 in mint condition so that people
1000 years from now are tripping over them still, nobody will want to use
one (just like people here today don't even want to look at a common 486 PC
running windows 3.11, but will fall all over themselves to get parts for
machines that are not common). Time along with apathy by the next
generations will end up loosing what we hold dear to us, our job is to leave
enough clues and tell a good enough story that future generations will want
to know more. Do you
really want to document every single thing we treasure about a
specific
machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could
just look
it up as needed,
Well, yes! I find this
idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave
puzzles of the present for the future to decode?!
Yes why not, give them all the pieces and hopefully a few people will put
the puzzle together and test it out. People today have no reason to build
egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our
present technology. The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were
built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything
was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people
like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our
computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their
society (in our crude forms) but a few people will be putting the puzzle
together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be
interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It
doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life
that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of
people 1000 years from now.
2 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
Rumor has it that Tom Jennings may have mentioned these words:
Think of it as "parity." We *try* to save everything available, but some
will invariably get lost. Hopefully, we've saved enough so it's not
super-difficult to figure out what didn't survive.
(oh, and for only 20 years, I don't see the importance. *200* years,
however...[1] How many people are happy that the plans for Babbage's
analytical engine hadn't gone *poof*?)
Sure. Put a couple of crossword / cryptogram books & whatnot in a time
capsule. However, WRT the classic machines, I agree that we should attempt
to leave as little to chance as possible.
There is some redundancy that can help here, too. If a fair portion of info
about OS-9/68K is lost, but a large portion of info about OS-9/6809
survives, "computer archeologists" could use the existing knowledge to
(possibly) rebuild a large portion of what was lost. Sure, it's not
perfect, but at least they'd have access to *some* of the basics, instead
of starting from scratch.
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
[1] And of course, to reach 200 years, we must first pass 20... So I guess
20 years isn't important historically, unless too much is already lost by
then. Then we're already screwed for the next 180...
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate."
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein
zmerch(a)30below.com |
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 21:56, Teo Zenios wrote:
Well, yes! Sometimes I think: "If I lost my wife..." life could be more
interesting! :-O
People always talk about Atlantis because its
something mythical
to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would
be like
reading 10 years on income tax forms.
Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do
remain will be more interesting?! Do you
really want to document every single thing we treasure about a
specific
machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could
just look
it up as needed,
Well, yes! or do you
really wish something important was forgotten
from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it
together, and
find out what the hunk of metal really does?
I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave
puzzles of the present for the future to decode?!
9:16 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
>> I mentioned the finger paintings because every
married
>> friend I knew with kids loved to show off those finger
>> paintings on their refrigerator to
>> anybody within eyesight of them, and I could care less.
If you "could care less" then you have a level of caring which is possible
to decrease [by definition].
Therefore by your own statement, YOU REALLY DO CARE, but you may be in
denial!!!
On the other hand, perhaps "You couldn't care less".
Seriously: I tend to agree with most of what you posted. This mis-use of a
phrase just happens to be the #1 thing that bugs me when it comes to
improper logic in a statement.
10:27 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
You can see pictures of people and places and things
from 1000 years ago,
its called art, architecture, and artifacts. One of the reasons people are
You are clearly not understanding where I'm coming from. Yes, that's all
fine and dandy, but in most instances, artwork is either too ideal or too
abstract to capture the otherwise "insignificant" nuances of daily life
that a photograph captures. Look at all the photos in your collection.
How many of them are worthy for public display in a gallery? Probably not
a lot. But, they say a hell of a lot about your personal life, the world
you lived in, its culture, its inhabitants, etc., PARTICULARLY WHAT'S IN
THE BACKGROUND. THAT'S what I'd like to see from 1000 years ago. Not
the stuff that people posed for, but the stuff that people, going about
their daily lives, were doing while they were unwittingly captured to
paper.
so interested in the past is because of the little
information that has
survived plus their need to learn things nobody else knows. I have read and
seen lots of pictures on ancient Greece but nothing beats climbing up the
road to the Acropolis to see it yourself even if it is a shell of what it
really looked like ages ago.
Minus all the people, the original facade, basically all of the context.
Same with standing on the center stone of a
1000+ year old amphitheater that the ancient storytellers used for famous
plays. I would love to climb an Inca ruin someday and look out into the
countryside for miles an miles and ponder what drove the religious people to
offer human sacrifices on the very spot you stand on.
I have done this, and while the experience was amazing in and of itself,
it was filled with fellow modern day human beings all trumbling around
wondering the same things as I was. Inifinitely more could be learned
about those places if photographs existed. They would tell infinitely
more about the place than what we know from archaeology study.
I mentioned the finger paintings because every married
friend I knew with
kids loved to show off those finger paintings on their refrigerator to
anybody within eyesight of them, and I could care less. Unless its your kids
painting you really don't care. If everybody archived those (which they
would since it meant something to them) would anybody ever bother looking at
them in 1000 years?
OF COURSE.
There is such a thing as too much information,
sensory
overload. If enough material survives from today so that people from 1000
years from now are a little curious about us then that is good.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your main argument is that if there's no
challenge in learning about our past then it won't be worthwhile to do so?
Let the archeologists dig in our trash pits to see
what we read, ate,
tools we used, fashion we wore, books we read etc. If we lay everything
out for them (assuming they can make heads or tails out of it) there is
no mystique to it, nothing to ponder, no need to dig up the past and to
see for themselves what it was all about.
And this is bad...why? If we have the tools to let our descendents know
every facit of our current lives, wouldn't that be better than them taking
what clues they have and fabricating some great story or myths around
them? For all we know, everything we know about ancient cultures could be
wrong in some significant way, biased by our fantasies and our penchant
for abscribing greatness to things of old that are larger than ourselves
and that we do not understand properly.
The best thing is for people to read our history from
the victors side
and then do dig up the vanquished to see what really happened.
What are we going to learn from digging up bones that wouldn't better
inform us by way of photographs?
People always talk about Atlantis because its
something mythical
to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would be like
reading 10 years on income tax forms. Save what we think is important and
let other generations go dig up what they think was important about us.
Well, perhaps they wouldn't care AS MUCH, but to compare an ancient
civilization to income tax forms is a bit...odd.
I really think people here collect computers because
deep inside it means
something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others. Do you
Well, in my case I can tell you that you are wrong. I have around 2000
computers in my collection now. Most of them mean nothing to me
personally. In fact, I question my sanity on a weekly basis as to why I
am putting myself through this. The answer is always that it is for
future generations. This is not some idealistic bullshit that I made up
to make myself feel better or to seem impressive to other people. It is
really the reason why I am doing this.
really want to document every single thing we treasure
about a specific
machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could just look
it up as needed
Well why the hell not!?!?!?
or do you really wish something important was
forgotten
from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it together, and
find out what the hunk of metal really does?
You're a real saddist, you know that? There will always be mysteries to
be solved. Why would you want to create unneccesary challenges for people
in the future to solve? We have the means and the foresight now, today,
to preserve information for future generations so that they don't have to
put any guesswork into it and get things absolutely wrong.
If you want to create historical challenges for future generations, take a
pair of your finest underwear, a banana peel, some pencil shavings, a
McDonald's Happy Meal prize, a couple books of any random topics, a few
coins, a drill bit, three sticks of gum, and a toothbrush, put them in a
lead box, and bury them six feet deep in your backyard.
In the meantime, please keep any documentation and software you have with
your old computers so they don't get separated.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
12:02 p.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 10:27 AM 9/23/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
You're a real saddist, you know that?
Yes, he's quite sad. :-)
If you want to create historical challenges for future
generations, take a
pair of your finest underwear, a banana peel, some pencil shavings, a
McDonald's Happy Meal prize, a couple books of any random topics, a few
coins, a drill bit, three sticks of gum, and a toothbrush, put them in a
lead box, and bury them six feet deep in your backyard.
It's hard enough (and quite entertaining) to try to understand
a contemporary culture unfamiliar to your own even when you're in
it, walking around... that's why we like to travel.
Pounds? Quid? This ain't lemonade!
A tremendous amount of historical culture has been lost because it
was made of wood, fiber, leather or bamboo. How much will be lost
because it was "saved" on a cheapo CD-R?
- John
8:51 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 07:43 PM 9/22/2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
A thousand years from now nobody is going to care about
what 99.999% of the
population did during their lives. Unless you made some major contribution
to society (which would most likely be archived by your generation) or were
a figure that seen something major (also documented) who will ever look your
information up?
Aldo Leopold wrote that "the first step in intelligent tinkering
is to save the pieces."
Humans have never tired of remembering their history. Technology
gives us some new ways to do it in far better fidelity than a story
repeated around a campfire or words scribbled on a page. I have
a few minutes of movies of relatives taken in the 1920s. Before
that, only a few static pictures, a few letters, a diary or two.
Would I like more? You bet.
One of my most fascinating relatives circa 1900 was a bit of a
black sheep and she's practically erased from the family history,
yet she's the one I'd like to know the best. And it was only from
researching her and discovering a long-lost relative still in the
same neighborhood that we found that movie from the 20s.
Heck, there's been many times I'd wished I'd kept a better journal
so I can figure out my own life, never mind letting my g-g-g-son
learn more about me.
Yes, 99.999% of what I have on disk would probably be considered
useless in 30 years, much less 300. But who knows what part they'd
want to see? I'll save a few of my kids' actual finger-paintings and
probably digital-camera the rest, so I can flip through it someday.
As Ben Franklin said, three moves equals one fire. Live a long life,
move a few times, need to consolidate to move cross-country or
across an ocean, give some away - presto, a lot of stuff disappears.
(Which gets me to the topic of my next big rant for this list,
which is about the rate of accumulation and the madness of collecting.)
We are technologically so close to being able to record an entire
human life on video. If there's a good way to reasonably
permanently store a recording like that - wow. That literally
changes history.
- John
8:34 a.m.
New subject: archiving as opposed to backing up
At 06:32 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote:
I imagine something like a National Archive where every
citizen was
allocated 6 cubic inches of deep vault, environmentally controlled
permanent storage plus indexing service, written into the U.S.
Constitution as an amendment. A 1/4" stack of 4x6" fiche.
Sounds like the salt-mine sorts of data safety centers I've
heard of - but I have no idea how much they cost.
With a standard box size and weight limits, it could be
quite automated and roboticized. Like NetFlix, but for
safe off-site storage. Put a barcode on a box, it gets
delivered to the site, the robots take it from there.
Reverse to get your stuff back.
- John
20 Sep
20 Sep
8:39 p.m.
>> If I used hardware until it wore out I would
still be using
>> a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because
>> the speed increase is
>> worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run
>> software it was intended to run.
>>
They have 1200 Baud Modems???? Why? I get along just fine with my acoustic
coupler (although it is getting hard to find a telephone shandset that
fits....
10:21 p.m.
>> If I
used hardware until it wore out I would still be using
>> a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because
>> the speed increase is
>> worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run
>> software it was intended to run.
>>
They have 1200 Baud Modems???? Why? I get along just fine with my acoustic
coupler (although it is getting hard to find a telephone shandset that
fits.... 
10:22 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using
smoke signals *and* a
shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm,
our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave.
Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had to git up offa the couch
and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged feet,
mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to change th'
channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day!
THEN: I hadda walk all that way back agin. And you know what!?!? Nine
times outta ten, my goldarn pig of a little sister ate up all my Popcorn
afore I could get back and watch another Lost in Space. Prime Time, doncha
know!!!
Cheerz
Methuselah
10:42 p.m.
John "Methuselah" Lawson said:
Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had
to git up offa the couch
and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged feet,
mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to change th'
channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day!
THEN: I hadda walk all that way back agin. And you know
what!?!? Nine
times outta ten, my goldarn pig of a little sister ate up all my Popcorn
afore I could get back and watch another Lost in Space. Prime
Time, doncha know!!!
Lost in Space? That's one of my all time favorite TV shows from way
back when I also had to get up and walk across the room to turn on the
TV and adjust the vertical hold button and the rabbit ears. Sometimes
I had to fiddle with the contrast and brightness to make that black-and-
white picture a little less fuzzy. More of my favorites were The Outer
Limits, Twilight Zone, and Superman with George Reeves.
Methuselah II
11:51 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote:
Lost in Space? That's one of my all time favorite
TV shows from way
back when I also had to get up and walk across the room to turn on the
TV and adjust the vertical hold button and the rabbit ears. Sometimes
I had to fiddle with the contrast and brightness to make that black-and-
white picture a little less fuzzy. More of my favorites were The Outer
Limits, Twilight Zone, and Superman with George Reeves.
Mark my words,
NONE of those NEW shows are gonna last.
11:25 p.m.
Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a
>shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm,
>our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave.
At least you had fire... :-O
Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had to
git up offa the couch
and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged feet,
mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to change th'
channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day!
My dad sure can't claim that -- hell, he's *always* had a remote! Granted,
the remote was *me*! : "Boy, get your butt up there & show me what's on
TV!!!" -- Despite the fact that I knew what was on better than the TV Guide
(which he never bought) he'd never believe me, and I had to flip thru all
the channels 3 times anyway... Thank gawd we didn't have access to any UHF
channels, or I'd *still* be standing there flipping... :-/
Ah well... I had my revenge... ;-)
The *only* reason my spot on the couch was assured was because I'd be my
mom's footrest. Neither of my siblings were willing to do that. However,
that was OK. My mom was (and hell, who knows, prolly *is*) a saint.
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together."
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson
zmerch(a)30below.com |
21 Sep
21 Sep
12:39 a.m.
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these
words:
I remember one of the few times my granddad ever spanked me - for
changing the channels with a swag-lamp chain....
They had one of the early remotes that was an actual tuned "clicker".
I figured out by accident that if I rattled the chain on the ceiling
lamp just right, the TV changed channels.
Granddad wasn't nearly as excited about that as I was.
Doc
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a
> shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm,
> our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave.
At least you had fire... :-O
Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I
had to git up offa the
couch and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged
feet, mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to
change th' channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day!
My dad sure can't claim that -- hell, he's *always* had a remote!
Granted, the remote was *me*! : "Boy, get your butt up there & show me
what's on TV!!!" -- Despite the fact that I knew what was on better than
the TV Guide (which he never bought) he'd never believe me, and I had to
flip thru all the channels 3 times anyway... Thank gawd we didn't have
access to any UHF channels, or I'd *still* be standing there flipping...
:-/
4:08 a.m.
At 10:21 PM 9/20/2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using
smoke signals *and* a
shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm,
our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave.
And we had to raise and make our own shofars.
- John
10:02 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a
shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm,
our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave.
At least you had parity! Half the time we didn't even know what byte we
were receiving.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
>> If I used hardware until it wore out I would
still be using
>> a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because
>> the speed increase is
>> worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run
>> software it was intended to run.
>>
They have 1200 Baud Modems???? Why? I get along just fine with my acoustic
coupler (although it is getting hard to find a telephone shandset that
fits....
3:41 a.m.
At 04:50 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
But USB sticks are getting cheap enough that they've become
promotional gimmick give-aways. I've never bought one, but now
I have several I got this way. Buy.com recently had 128M USB
for $11 with a $10 rebate, so $1 AR: see http://www.slickdeals.net/ .
I'm with you, though - I tend to use a floppy or burn a CD-R because I
know they'll work and I don't need to think twice about whether there's
an available USB port and whether that computer's OS handles it.
Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash
to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards
as USB disks?
- John
Compared to a
USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated
transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely.
I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever
I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7
generations behind whatever is current today. 
5 a.m.
yea you can just buy a USB card reader. I have one of those for my digital
camera.
regards
charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foust" <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: RE: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
At 04:50 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Computer Festival
wrote:
<CUT>
Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a
CompactFlash
to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards
as USB disks?
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004
5:42 a.m.
Lots of 'em out there, John- not very expensive either.
I carry a 512 CF card with me all the time in my wallet with useful
stuff on it-A PCMCIA slot adaptor does sometimes go in with it. Not
found a USB reader small enuff to go in there with it yet but I bet
one will turn up soon.
DaveB
NZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foust" <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the
Past (fwd)
At 04:50 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Computer Festival
wrote:
But USB sticks are getting cheap enough that they've become
promotional gimmick give-aways. I've never bought one, but now
I have several I got this way. Buy.com recently had 128M USB
for $11 with a $10 rebate, so $1 AR: see http://www.slickdeals.net/
.
I'm with you, though - I tend to use a floppy or burn a CD-R because
I
know they'll work and I don't need to think twice about whether
there's
an available USB port and whether that computer's OS handles it.
Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash
to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards
as USB disks?
- John
Compared
to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do
repeated
transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's
completely.
I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use
whatever
I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff
that's 3-7
generations behind whatever is current today.
8:12 a.m.
nah, they just look like another drive under windows (2k/xp)
regards
charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foust" <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
At 05:42 AM 9/21/2004, you wrote:
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004
Lots of 'em out there, John- not very
expensive either.
Late-night brain block. I own several, but I always
thought of them as "read the CF cards from my camera" devices.
They require special drivers. But USB thumb-memories don't, right?
- John
10:11 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote:
Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a
CompactFlash
to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards
as USB disks?
Why, yes :) I was brought one the other day. One is made by SanDisk and
called the ImageMate. WinXP recognizes it automatically and installs the
drivers (no surprises there) and it mounts any CF card you have as an
additional drive volume. Nifty!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
7:49 p.m.
I don't
invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever
I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7
generations behind whatever is current today.
But USB sticks are getting cheap enough that they've become
promotional gimmick give-aways. I've never bought one, but now
22 Sep
22 Sep
7:55 a.m.
>>
>> This implies you have a machine with an Unusable Serial
>> Botch port!. It's not Universal, in that none of the 200+
>> computers I have here have USB ports or can have USB ports.
>> It is serial. It's not a bus, at least not in the hardware.
>>
>> It's got other 'features' I don't like too... I'll stick to
>> RS232, thank you...
>>
While I do agree that USB is NOT a be-all do-all, like some proponents, I do
not think is a is *Botch* either.
Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are kits for other
platforms as well [I integrated a USB sub-system with and embedded ARM-7
system last year], so I am confused about your stantement that not of the
computers you have *CAN* have usb ports.
I also don't understand youstatement that it is not a bus.....
5:27 p.m.
While I do agree that USB is NOT a be-all do-all, like some proponents, I do
not think is a is *Botch* either.
There is plenty I don;t like about it. Like so much of modern computing
it's designed to let idiots do simple tasks trivially, but it also makes
it impossible for hackers to do difficult tasks. Since I seem to always
want to do the latter..
I don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID (and have thr
device 'certified') if you want to make your own stuff. Never had this
problem with RS232 :-)
And the fact that you seem to need special drivers for many devices which
you can bet are not available for any of my machines.
And the fact that it's very assymmetric (there are 'masters' and
'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much more
symmetrical.
An example of why I don't like this. My HP100LX has an RS232 port. It was
clearly designed to link it to a PC to transfer files (and it does this
perfectly well). But as it's an RS232 port I can also link it directly to
a serial printer, or to a modem, or...
More modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves, designed to hang off
a PC. You can't link them directly to a printer. It's interesting that
some of my older handhelds have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld
is the loop controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a
printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them to a larger
machine. We've gone backwards (as usual)
Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are kits for other
I've never seen an ISA USB card...
platforms as well [I integrated a USB sub-system with
and embedded ARM-7
system last year], so I am confused about your stantement that not of the
computers you have *CAN* have usb ports.
All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus, Qbus, BBC
1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots (like on th HP9830), HPIL,
PERQlink, etc. Just about all of those have RS232 (or compatible) ports,
I've nver seen USB for any of them
I also don't understand youstatement that it is not a bus.....
Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up
connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need to _always_
have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair amount of logic).
-tony
6:43 p.m.
On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 11:27:37PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Nor PCMCIA (_not_ CARDBUS - there _are_ USB CARDBUS cards). My old Dell LM
laptop was out in the cold with USB as well - it was running the latest
version of RedHat (maxed out to 72MB!), but no USB available.
Any x86 style
computer CAN have a usb port, and there are kits for other
I've never seen an ISA USB card... All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have
Unibus, Qbus, BBC
1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots (like on th HP9830), HPIL,
PERQlink, etc. Just about all of those have RS232 (or compatible) ports,
I've nver seen USB for any of them
Very much agreed there. Few of my machines have PCI slots, nothing that
isn't Alpha or Pentium.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Sep-2004 23:40 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.0 F (-70.0 C) Windchill -128.3 F (-89.09 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 084 Barometer 672 mb (10929. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
6:47 p.m.
New subject: Usb - Pro/Con
Taking it "Point by Point"...
>> > While I do agree that USB is NOT a be-all
do-all, like some
>> > proponents, I do not think is a is *Botch* either.
>>
>> There is plenty I don;t like about it. Like so much of
>> modern computing it's designed to let idiots do simple
>> tasks trivially, but it also makes it impossible for
>> hackers to do difficult tasks. Since I seem to always want
>> to do the latter..
>>
>> I don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID
>> (and have thr device 'certified') if you want to make your
>> own stuff. Never had this problem with RS232 :-)
You need to pay for and get certified if you are going to make a legitimate
network appliance also [MAC ID]. Of course most products purchase a
pre-sertified module. Same if you are going to create a cellular product [I
happen to use WaveCom modules in mine].
>> And the fact that you seem to need special
drivers for many
>> devices which you can bet are not available for any of my machines.
Although I can not find the link at presend, there is source code for low
level drivers. Since your environment (by choice) is the use of equipment
that is not currently supported, rooling your own drivers seems reasonable
to me.
>> And the fact that it's very assymmetric
(there are 'masters' and
>> 'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much
>> more symmetrical.
RS-232 is an ELECTRICAL Specification. The protocols that are run on
This are independand. Lets keep it apple and apples.....
Consider RS-485 (Which I use heavily for my DMX lighting). One note MUST act
as a coordinator, although they are all electrically equivilant.
>> An example of why I don't like this. My
HP100LX has an
>> RS232 port. It was clearly designed to link it to a PC to
>> transfer files (and it does this perfectly well). But as
>> it's an RS232 port I can also link it directly to a serial
>> printer, or to a modem, or...
>> More modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves,
>> designed to hang off a PC. You can't link them directly to
>> a printer. It's interesting that some of my older handhelds
>> have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld is the loop
>> controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a
>> printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them
>> to a larger machine. We've gone backwards (as usual)
>>
To be honest, I have not looked into the electricals on this. I am NOT sure
that they are *REQUIRED* to be slaves.
>> >
>> > Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are
>> kits for
>> > other
>>
>> I've never seen an ISA USB card...
>>
Check out the products from SimTec. Their offerening have changed, but they
do have ISA USB Cards.
>> > platforms as well [I integrated a USB
sub-system with and
>> embedded
>> > ARM-7 system last year], so I am confused about your
>> stantement that
>> > not of the computers you have *CAN* have usb ports.
>>
>> All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus,
>> Qbus, BBC 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots
>> (like on th HP9830), HPIL, PERQlink, etc. Just about all of
>> those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, I've nver seen USB
>> for any of them
>>
Again, development boards ARE out their that give you everything you need to
interface to nearly any host...
>> > I also don't understand your
statement that it is not a bus.....
>>
>> Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up
>> connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need
>> to _always_
>> have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair
>> amount of logic).
By that argument (which has valid aspects), then ArcNet was not a bus
either, and RS-232 is DEFINITELY not a bus architecture (it is purely point
to point).
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Usb - Pro/Con
>> I
don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID
>> (and have thr device 'certified') if you want to make your
>> own stuff. Never had this problem with RS232 :-)
You need to pay for and get certified if you are going to make a legitimate
network appliance also [MAC ID]. Of course most products purchase a pre-sertified module. Same if you are going to create
a cellular product [I
happen to use WaveCom modules in mine].
Ah, sop now if I buy a product the first thing I have to do is write
special drivers for it..... And hope that I can get enough of a spec on
the product to allow me to do this.
>> And the fact that you seem to need
special drivers for many
>> devices which you can bet are not available for any of my machines.
Although I can not find the link at presend, there is source code for low
level drivers. Since your environment (by choice) is the use of equipment that is not currently supported, rooling your own
drivers seems reasonable
to me.
OK, Asynchronous bit-serial data, sent LSB first, using the RS232 voltage
and connector specifications :-)
>> And the fact that it's very
assymmetric (there are 'masters' and
>> 'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much
>> more symmetrical.
RS-232 is an ELECTRICAL Specification. The protocols that are run on
This are independand. Lets keep it apple and apples..... >> More
modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves,
>> designed to hang off a PC. You can't link them directly to
>> a printer. It's interesting that some of my older handhelds
>> have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld is the loop
>> controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a
>> printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them
>> to a larger machine. We've gone backwards (as usual)
>>
To be honest, I have not looked into the electricals on this. I am NOT sure
that they are *REQUIRED* to be slaves. >> All my
PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus,
>> Qbus, BBC 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots
>> (like on th HP9830), HPIL, PERQlink, etc. Just about all of
>> those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, I've nver seen USB
>> for any of them
>>
Again, development boards ARE out their that give you everything you need to
interface to nearly any host... >> > I also don't understand your
statement that it is not a bus.....
>>
>> Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up
>> connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need
>> to _always_
>> have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair
>> amount of logic).
By that argument (which has valid aspects), then ArcNet was not a bus
either, and RS-232 is DEFINITELY not a bus architecture (it is purely point
to point).
20 Sep
20 Sep
7:01 p.m.
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had
> floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say
> this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest
> of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive.
I am wondering what removeable mass storage you have on your classics...
I still use them all the time. It's still the quickest and easiest way to
transfer files (that can fit on them of course).
So do I. You can't get CD-ROM burners for PERQs, HP71s, BBC Micros,
PDP11/45s, and so on. In fact I doubt if my PC would support a CD burner
either (I am sure the data rate of the burner would be far too fast for
my machine...)
-tony
7:48 p.m.
if it can support a 32x cdreader, it can support a burner. yes it'll be slow
at 1x, 2x but then speed dont matter when u want the data on the disk right?
:D
as for bbc's there is a project that works (by all accounts) that allows you
to use flash cards as mass storage, there's also a BBC/IDE interface in the
works too.
regards
charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had
> floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say
> this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest
> of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive.
I am wondering what removeable mass storage you have on your classics...
I still use them all the time. It's still the quickest and easiest way
to
transfer files (that can fit on them of course).
So do I. You can't get CD-ROM burners for PERQs, HP71s, BBC Micros,
PDP11/45s, and so on. In fact I doubt if my PC would support a CD burner
either (I am sure the data rate of the burner would be far too fast for
my machine...)
-tony
8:15 p.m.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
So do I. You can't get CD-ROM burners for PERQs,
HP71s, BBC Micros,
PDP11/45s, and so on. In fact I doubt if my PC would support a CD burner
either (I am sure the data rate of the burner would be far too fast for
my machine...)
Tony,
I don't know what the required speed would be - my recollection was that
it was a few hundred K bits per second.
I have a 2X external JVC SCSI CD writer that NEVER worked reliably.
If you'll pay for the shipping to UK, you're welcome to it.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
22 Sep
22 Sep
9:36 a.m.
Hi, gang,
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 19-Sep-04 at 15:26 Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I told ya so!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_hi_te/…
ath_4
Mon Sep 6, 5:17 PM ET
By MARK NIESSE, Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA - Long the most common way to store letters, homework and other
computer files, the floppy disk is going the way of the horse upon the
arrival of the car: it'll hang around but never hold the same relevance
in everyday life.
<snippety>
Perhaps not, but I still don't see any way, in the systems I've encountered to
date, to boot from the USB port (for a Jump drive). And, while some will boot from the
CD-ROM drive (notably Compaq servers), it is NOT as common a thing as PC manufacturers
would have us believe!
Floppies are still my A-number-one choice for booting low-level diagnostics, and getting
installations started for open-source OS's such as the BSD family. They will remain in
that position until (1), someone comes up with a means to boot from a Jump drive. (2),
Data I/O manages to convert the Unisite programmer to boot (or allow updates to be loaded)
by something other than floppies.
Like the horse, as the article says, they're going to be around for a lonnnnnng time
to come, methinks.
Keep the peace(es).
And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology
must go on.
Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer
makers say.
Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in
spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies
are available on request for $10 to $20 extra.
"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell
spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a
floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive."
A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't
have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the
benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops
don't come with a floppy.
More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy,
said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard.
"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she
said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready
to make that move."
Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so
comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers
outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South.
At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary
equipment, but no floppy.
"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the
last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta
said.
But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their
floppies go.
"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a
pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway.
"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat
Blaisdell.
The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact
discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and
are less likely to break.
Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used
to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around.
"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and
computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old
8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never
label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in
and looked."
In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long.
They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word
processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of
700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and
256 megabytes.
And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used
to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple
Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its
Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s.
Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop
including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model
in 1998.
"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow
demise,"
said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology
consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were
screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted."
It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs.
Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the
DVD would be obsolete within a decade.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal
ports?"
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:09 a.m.
On Wednesday 22 September 2004 09:36 am, Bruce Lane wrote:
Perhaps not, but I still don't see any way, in the systems I've
encountered to date, to boot from the USB port (for a Jump drive).
Most newer systems (last year-year and a half) will boot any device conforming
to the USB Mass Storage specification.
Since your talking about booting usb devices at all, I'm assuming you're
talking about newer systems ;)
And,
while some will boot from the CD-ROM drive (notably Compaq servers), it is
NOT as common a thing as PC manufacturers would have us believe!
Floppies are still my A-number-one choice for booting low-level
diagnostics, and getting installations started for open-source OS's such as
the BSD family. They will remain in that position until (1), someone comes
up with a means to boot from a Jump drive. (2), Data I/O manages to convert
the Unisite programmer to boot (or allow updates to be loaded) by something
other than floppies.
Like the horse, as the article says, they're going to be around for a
lonnnnnng time to come, methinks.
Keep the peace(es).
--
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
"we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of...
fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on
the shore of an infinite sea of mystery."
chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein"
And good riddance, say some home computer users.
The march of technology
must go on.
Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer
makers say.
Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in
spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies
are available on request for $10 to $20 extra.
"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell
spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a
floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive."
A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't
have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the
benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops
don't come with a floppy.
More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy,
said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard.
"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she
said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready
to make that move."
Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so
comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers
outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South.
At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary
equipment, but no floppy.
"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the
last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta
said.
But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their
floppies go.
"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a
pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway.
"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat
Blaisdell.
The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact
discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and
are less likely to break.
Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used
to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around.
"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and
computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old
8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never
label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in
and looked."
In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long.
They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word
processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of
700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and
256 megabytes.
And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used
to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple
Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its
Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s.
Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop
including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model
in 1998.
"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow
demise,"
said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology
consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were
screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted."
It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs.
Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the
DVD would be obsolete within a decade.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with
surreal ports?"
2:19 p.m.
New subject: TRIM YOUR REPLIES!!! Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd)
I know this is a nitpick that's been expressed many times before, but it
bears repeating.
See the message below. What is wrong with it? I will tell you. There
are 4 lines of reply, and 50+ of original, irrelevant message. Why?
I ask again: why?
Please take the two seconds it requires to trim your replies, people.
OKAY?
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Dan Wright wrote:
On Wednesday 22 September 2004 09:36 am, Bruce Lane
wrote:
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Perhaps not, but I still don't see any way, in the systems I've
encountered to date, to boot from the USB port (for a Jump drive).
Most newer systems (last year-year and a half) will boot any device conforming
to the USB Mass Storage specification.
Since your talking about booting usb devices at all, I'm assuming you're
talking about newer systems ;)
And,
while some will boot from the CD-ROM drive (notably Compaq servers), it is
NOT as common a thing as PC manufacturers would have us believe!
Floppies are still my A-number-one choice for booting low-level
diagnostics, and getting installations started for open-source OS's such as
the BSD family. They will remain in that position until (1), someone comes
up with a means to boot from a Jump drive. (2), Data I/O manages to convert
the Unisite programmer to boot (or allow updates to be loaded) by something
other than floppies.
Like the horse, as the article says, they're going to be around for a
lonnnnnng time to come, methinks.
Keep the peace(es).
And good riddance, say some home computer users.
The march of technology
must go on.
Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer
makers say.
Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in
spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies
are available on request for $10 to $20 extra.
"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell
spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a
floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive."
A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't
have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the
benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops
don't come with a floppy.
More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy,
said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard.
"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she
said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready
to make that move."
Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so
comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers
outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South.
At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary
equipment, but no floppy.
"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the
last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta
said.
But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their
floppies go.
"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a
pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway.
"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat
Blaisdell.
The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact
discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and
are less likely to break.
Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used
to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around.
"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and
computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old
8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never
label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in
and looked."
In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long.
They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word
processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of
700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and
256 megabytes.
And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used
to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple
Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its
Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s.
Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop
including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model
in 1998.
"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow
demise,"
said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology
consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were
screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted."
It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs.
Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the
DVD would be obsolete within a decade.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
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Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with
surreal ports?"
2:43 p.m.
New subject: TRIM YOUR REPLIES!!! Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd)
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 12:19 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I know this is a nitpick that's been expressed
many times before, but it
bears repeating.
See the message below. What is wrong with it? I will tell you. There
are 4 lines of reply, and 50+ of original, irrelevant message. Why?
stop top-posting ;-P
28 Sep
28 Sep
10:26 a.m.
New subject: TRIM YOUR REPLIES!!! Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd)
On Friday 24 September 2004 14:19, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I know this is a nitpick that's been expressed
many times before, but it
bears repeating.
See the message below. What is wrong with it? I will tell you. There
are 4 lines of reply, and 50+ of original, irrelevant message. Why?
I ask again: why?
Because I was in a rush, and forgot. Sorry. I don't usually do this.
Also, I agree with Jules on the top-posting ;)
Dan
24 Sep
24 Sep
3:05 p.m.
This happened today:
I work at UC Irvine, new and previous students are giving presentations
on their area of research (1st week of school). A student's turn comes
up, he walks up to the pile of media computers... with a floppy disk.
It turns out that in our entire program (Arts Computation Engineering)
only one computer, an administrator's, has a floppy drive, via which we
transferred the file to the fileserver.
In the entire first year of the program (2003-2004) not one person ever
tried to use a floppy disk. (So-called; a 3.5" 1.44M.)
There you go.
7397
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a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
charlesb＠otcgaming.net -
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jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
jpl15＠panix.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com -
news＠computercollector.com -
patrick＠vintagecomputermarketplace.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
Pres＠macro-inc.com -
spc＠conman.org -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
tractorb＠ihug.co.nz -
vcf＠siconic.com -
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