24 Jun
2002
24 Jun
'02
3:27 a.m.
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants out there?
*grins*
Alex
--
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
24 Jun
24 Jun
5:23 a.m.
On Monday, June 24, 2002, Alex White wrote:
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants out
there?
Ever been to Google?
--
Jeffrey Sharp
The email address lists(a)subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please
send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com.
You may need to remove some bugs first.
6:13 a.m.
Alex White wrote:
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants out
there?
*grins*
Alex
Jerome Fine replies:
YES!!
*grins* (You just asked "Can you" - not to actually describe them!)
Now, to actually describe them "all", I don't think it is worth while
to spend all that amount ot time (a few centuries) or the space. But,
The major 3 are (there are many more):
RSTS/E
RSX-11
RT-11 which is the only one I currently use. It would take about
10 years to describe completely - the DOCs for V5.07 are about
18" high double-sided 8" * 11" sheets without the binders. The
program listings for each distinct version of the operating system
are about the same size and there are at least 2 major flavours,
unmapped (RT11SB and RT11FB) and mapped (RT11XM and
RT11ZM) with significant differences (15% to 25%) between
the unmapped and mapped flavours. The listings for the utilities
are probably another 48". The DOCs can be purchased. The
source code licenses can also be purchased. DEC probably had
internal documentation as well, but no information seems to be
publicly available, including the DEC (and the Mentec) RT-11
Bug List. Megan Gentry can probably confirm the information
about the DOCs and the source listings. There is probably an
NDF (Non-Disclosure Agreement) that prevents anyone who
knows about the "secret" stuff from even admitting that they know
anything about the "secret" stuff. Otherwise, those who know and
may even have copies could at least say how many pages of internal
documentation existed and how many bugs are in the "secret" DEC
(and the Mentec) RT-11 Bug List.
*grin* Perhaps you can understand why I suggested it would take
about ten years to completely describe RT-11.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
6:36 a.m.
At 02:13 PM 6/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
Now you've done it! Didn't you really mean to say that the major
OSes are Unix V6, V7, 2.9, 2.10, 2.11, etc.? :-)
--tom
Alex White
wrote:
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants
out there?
*grins*
Alex
Jerome Fine replies:
YES!!
*grins* (You just asked "Can you" - not to actually describe them!)
Now, to actually describe them "all", I don't think it is worth while
to spend all that amount ot time (a few centuries) or the space. But,
The major 3 are (there are many more):
RSTS/E
RSX-11
RT-11 which is the only one I currently use. It would take about
10 years to describe completely - the DOCs for V5.07 are about
18" high double-sided 8" * 11" sheets without the binders. The
program listings for each distinct version of the operating system
are about the same size and there are at least 2 major flavours,
unmapped (RT11SB and RT11FB) and mapped (RT11XM and
RT11ZM) with significant differences (15% to 25%) between
the unmapped and mapped flavours. The listings for the utilities
are probably another 48". The DOCs can be purchased. The
source code licenses can also be purchased. DEC probably had
internal documentation as well, but no information seems to be
publicly available, including the DEC (and the Mentec) RT-11
Bug List. Megan Gentry can probably confirm the information
about the DOCs and the source listings. There is probably an
NDF (Non-Disclosure Agreement) that prevents anyone who
knows about the "secret" stuff from even admitting that they know
anything about the "secret" stuff. Otherwise, those who know and
may even have copies could at least say how many pages of internal
documentation existed and how many bugs are in the "secret" DEC
(and the Mentec) RT-11 Bug List.
*grin* Perhaps you can understand why I suggested it would take
about ten years to completely describe RT-11.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
10:43 a.m.
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12:20 p.m.
On Mon, 2002-06-24 at 23:43, Tony Duell wrote:
Nope.
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants out there?
_ALL_ of them???? You are joking, right? Various languages including their own OS (Single user
BASIC, Multi-user
BASIC, MINC BASIC, Forth, etc)
Forth! There's a bootable forth around?
That'd be fantastic...
And you want me to _describe_ all of those...
I
think I should have said 'list'.
Alex
12:29 p.m.
On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 01:20, Alex White wrote:
SOL-11? *interest is piqued now*
Alex
--
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching. Boink like she's the first women you've ever
seen naked.
Various
languages including their own OS (Single user BASIC, Multi-user
BASIC, MINC BASIC, Forth, etc)
Forth! There's a bootable forth around?
That'd be fantastic...
12:37 p.m.
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12:46 p.m.
On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 01:37, Tony Duell wrote:
[PDP11]
Forth! There's a bootable forth around?
That'd be fantastic...
There _was_... I think the only disk it supported (both for booting
and for
reading/writing screens) was the RX01 (and maybe later the RX02). It
would be possible to modify the disk I/O code to handle other devices, I
guess.
There goes the short-lived dream of a Forth box then. We've basically
got either RX50 or TK50 to boot from.
Alex
--
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching. Boink like she's the first wamen you've ever
seen naked.
12:55 p.m.
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25 Jun
25 Jun
12:13 a.m.
New subject: Forth for PDP-11
Tony Duell wrote:
>On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 01:37, Tony Duell wrote:
>>Forth!
There's a bootable forth around? That'd be fantastic...
[...but it was RX01
only...]
>There goes the short-lived dream of a Forth box then. We've basically
>got either RX50 or TK50 to boot from. Well, if you could find the original code (which came
as Macro 11
source), it wouldn't be _too_ difficult to modify the I/O drivers, I
think.
A quick Google search recovered this as the first item:
------------------------------------------------
SOL-11 - A Small Language and OS for the PDP-11
SOL is a small, non-standard, stand-alone FORTH kernel containing
everything that is required to edit, store, recall, compile, and run
programs on PDP-11 microcomputers. It is intended for a minimum
operating system and programming environment. The FORTH language offers
full access to the complete hardware. Device drivers for the console and
some block devices are included.
Supported Hardware
* PDP-11 CPU with EIS (required)
* 8K to 28K words of memory
* console terminal (preferrably VT100)
* RX01/RX02 floppy disk drives
* RL02 disk drive
* TU58 tape drive
The Sources
SOL is written in PDP-11 assembly language and FORTH. The BTN11
assembler (version 0.9 or later) is required to compile the assembly
part of SOL.
40187 2001-07-17 sol-11.tar.gz version 0.4
----------------------------------------------
Available at : http://www.not-compatible.org/PDP-11/programs/sol-11.html
Seems like what the doctor ordered. Check out the rest of the site for
other interesting projects.
-- hbp
10:37 a.m.
New subject: Forth for PDP-11
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24 Jun
24 Jun
8:24 p.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
[PDP11]
Someone sent me a couple of zip files with PDP-11 Forth some time back.
I've not done anything with it yet - been busy.
It's in the PD and by FIG, and will run stand-alone (allegedly...).
Mostly MACRO code.
Anyones welcome to a copy. of course.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Forth! There's a bootable forth around?
That'd be fantastic...
There _was_...
FIG Forth was available for the PDP11 at one time, and at least one
varient included a small bootstrap which pulled the Forth kernel, etc
into memory. Disk access was then via the standard 1K 'screens'.
I think the only disk it supported (both for booting and for
reading/writing screens) was the RX01 (and maybe later the RX02). It
would be possible to modify the disk I/O code to handle other devices, I
guess.
There was also a version that ran under RT11 and used an RT11 file as a
'virtual disk' to store the screens. This is the only version I've ever
seen, and not having an RT11 license I can't run it.
If anyone knows the whereabouts of the standalone version I am
interested. I am pretty sure it was Public Domain (most FIG Forths are).
25 Jun
25 Jun
2:16 a.m.
Alex White wrote:
On Mon,
2002-06-24 at 23:43, Tony Duell wrote:
Nope. Alex White wrote:
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants out there?
_ALL_ of them???? You
are joking, right? Various
languages including their own OS (Single user BASIC, Multi-user
BASIC, MINC BASIC, Forth, etc)
Forth! There's a bootable forth around?
That'd be fantastic... And you want
me to _describe_ all of those...
I think I should have said 'list'.
Alex 
2:26 a.m.
"Jerome H. Fine" wrote:
Perhaps I exaggerate just a bit since just a list with
one line
to specify only the name of the OSen would probably not
be too extreme - it depends on what you mean by variants.
Well a cross reference
would be nice to know just what ran
and could be cross compiled between machines from the tiny PDP-8
to the larger PDP's. Only major revisions are needed. Take the
PC there was only 4 OS's that I know of when it first came out
CP/M,DOS,Pascal,Forth. Most real software started with the 286.
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
4:42 a.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
Ben wrote:
That was meant for the PC. Real computers had real software
before that. I consider the PC to still to be 8 bit cpu because
16 bit addressing is the norm. Also while 8 bit CPU's like
the 8080/Z80/6500/6800/6809 are nice machines only MACHINES with
48k+ of memory could do useful general purpose work.
( That 48k includes 8k to 12k OS ).
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
Most real software started with the 286.
Nice troll, dude! 
7:05 a.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
I'd also disagree with that statement, I don't think it started until the
386. Sure you could do some tricks to get real OS's running on a 286, but
it wasn't until the 386 that you could get a decent, fully functional OS up
and running.
No troll, just my opinion.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Ben wrote:
That was meant for the PC. Real computers had real software Most real software started with the 286.
Nice troll, dude! 
4:48 a.m.
"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote:
I was thinking of unix style OS's. The 286 was the first intel cpu
with some sort of real memory managment.
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
PC there was only 4 OS's that I know of when
it first came out
CP/M,DOS,Pascal,Forth. Most real software started with the 286.
Isn't that:
"Most real software ENDED with the 286." ?
4:58 a.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
Ben wrote:
Well what was it?
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
I was thinking of unix style OS's. The 286
was the first intel cpu with
some sort of real memory managment.
If you don't count the iAPX 432. (And most people don't.) 
5:32 a.m.
New subject: Intel iAPX 432 (was Re: final brainteaser for the day)
I was thinking of unix style OS's. The 286 was the
first intel cpu
with some sort of real memory managment.
If you don't count the iAPX 432. (And most people don't.) 
27 Jun
27 Jun
1:14 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 10:48:43AM -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote:
"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote:
Perhaps Intel thought that memory management and protection in hardware
was not necessary. Crossing from the ISIS thread...
ISIS' programming tools are designed to organize your program into
a code segment, a data segment, a stack segment, and a memory segment
(everything in the first contiguous block of RAM that is not taken up
by the code, data, or stack).
Sounds like the 8086, except ISIS runs on the 8080 so the segmentation
is done purely in software.
As for protection: ISIS has a medium-level language (PL/M), a linker,
and a relocating loader. Given those tools, I can see someone claiming
that protection is the responsibility of the programmer.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote:
I was thinking of unix style OS's. The 286 was the first intel cpu
with some sort of real memory managment. PC there was only 4 OS's that I know of when
it first came out
CP/M,DOS,Pascal,Forth. Most real software started with the 286.
Isn't that:
"Most real software ENDED with the 286." ?
25 Jun
25 Jun
7:18 a.m.
IN ADDITION, I JUST NOTICED YOU ASKED FOR:
DRUM ROLL, FIREWORKS, ENTERPRISE GOING TO WARP!!
PDP in general, as opposed to PDP-11 which everyone has
been focused upon. Did you mean PDP-11 ONLY - OR
dod you actually want a list of all PDP systems? While just
the list for PDP-11 would occupy a whole VERY LARGE
chapter in a book, such a list for ALL PDP would occupy
a VERY LARGE book.
Perhaps I exaggerate just a bit since just a list with one line
to specify only the name of the OSen would probably not
be too extreme - it depends on what you mean by variants.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
Good point Jerome, I'd missed that myself. I think it's really only the
PDP-8 and PDP-11 that have huge lists of OS's. Though just about every DEC
system seems to have several.
My DEC emulation website ( http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html )
does mention quite a few of the OS's available for each DEC family,
however, that's one aspect of it that needs more work. Especially since I
don't have pages up for systems that don't have emulators.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
24 Jun
24 Jun
2:37 p.m.
At 11:43 PM 24/06/2002 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
To which we can add UCSD Pascal (which was a programming language and
operating environment).
Two others that come to mind are the operating system written in Concurrent
Pascal and described in Per Brinch Hansen's book and the operating system
in the Cm* parallel cluster.
For someone who's used RT-11 for about a day, 2.11BSD for about a month and
taught PDP-11 assembly language programming on a VAX-11/780 for a year, I
seem to have picked up a bit about PDP-11s :-)
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
Can you describe all the PDP OSen and variants out there?
_ALL_ of them???? You are joking, right?
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25 comments
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participants (13)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dpeschel＠eskimo.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
hansp＠aconit.org -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
jhfinepw4z＠compsys.to -
lists＠subatomix.com -
meltie＠myrealbox.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
uban＠ubanproductions.com