Imperative thought patterns - Re: teaching programming to kids - Re: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC - test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

3 Jan 2012

----- Original Message:
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:33:02 -0500
From: Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
Subject: Imperative thought patterns - Re: teaching programming to
kids - Re: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC

...
  On 1/2/12 8:22 PM, "Josh Dersch"<derschjo
at mail.msu.edu>  wrote: 
...
 >>> Djikstra said, "It is virtually
impossible to teach good programming
>>> prctices to students with a prior exposure to BASIC; they are mentally
>>> mutilated beyond any hope of regeneration."
>>
>> He had that lovely combination of clear sight and fearless expression.
>
> If only that particular expression of his was even remotely true :).
>
> - Josh 
...
  Most long-time imperative programmers who seriously
studies The Structure 
 and Interpretation of Computer Programs will come face to face with the 
 essential truth of Dijkstra's remark. The consequent un-learning is just 
 as valuable as the learning... 
--T

----- Reply:

I don't think Josh was questioning whether Dijkstra said it, but whether
it's actually *true*; since you (Toby) say elsewhere that "I too learned
with assembler, BASIC, Pascal, C, and so on", then you must also be
"mentally mutilated beyond any hope of regeneration".

That would of course explain a lot... ;-)

I think many if not most of the people on here discovered that they enjoyed
and had a gift for programming by playing with BASIC on their C64 or
equivalent and, far from being "mentally mutilated", have gone on to be
quite competent programmers and/or analysts; I also suspect that had that
C64 been equipped with a language that discouraged 'playing' and enforced
rigid rules of structure etc., many of those folks would today be in a
different and perhaps less satisfying career.

m