4 Oct
2018
4 Oct
'18
11:34 p.m.
I got a request for a scan of the Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product
Manual. I have the manual, I will scan it and post if no one has a copy.
But I don't want to go through the effort if it exists somewhere already.
I noticed on bitsavers there was no MPI nor Micro Peripherals Inc section
so it very well may be that there is no copy of this manual out there..
Thanks in advance.
Bill
5 Oct
5 Oct
1:42 a.m.
On 10/4/2018 8:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
I got a request for a scan of the Micro Peripherals
Inc MPI 91/92 Product
Manual. I have the manual, I will scan it and post if no one has a copy.
But I don't want to go through the effort if it exists somewhere already.
I noticed on bitsavers there was no MPI nor Micro Peripherals Inc section
so it very well may be that there is no copy of this manual out there..
Thanks in advance.
Bill
Is this the floppy drive outfit in Chatsworth or there bouts?? I
serviced their inhouse Microdata Reality system, and later converted
them to a Compaq 386 running Pick for the AT.
"Would work for floppy drives" was on my sign I used for begging. It
came in handy before we replaced the Reality system as drives were
expensive and on allocation a lot, and we obviously had no problem with
that.
I'd love to have the manual, as I think I've got some of the drives it
that is what these are.
I initially confused the MPI with the CDC tape division, but then
realized you likely meant the floppy folks, at any case, not the CDC
division.
thanks
Jim
9:36 a.m.
On 10/4/2018 8:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
Yes, Chatsworth, CA USA
I got a request for a scan of the Micro
Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product
Manual. I have the manual, I will scan it and post if no one has a copy.
But I don't want to go through the effort if it exists somewhere already.
I noticed on bitsavers there was no MPI nor Micro Peripherals Inc section
so it very well may be that there is no copy of this manual out there..
Thanks in advance.
Bill
Is this the floppy drive outfit in Chatsworth or there bouts?
I'd love to have the manual, as I think I've got some of the drives it
that is what these are.
Another vote for yes, make a scan.
So there are no scans of this drive otherwise.... going once going twice...
b
12:42 p.m.
Al, so you're saying, "yes please scan the MPI 91/21 product manual"?
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:17 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I did a scan of the CHM catalog, and we don't
appear to have it
We do have some other things, which I'll scan today
On 10/5/18 6:36 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
So there are no scans of this drive otherwise....
going once going
twice...
b
5:53 p.m.
On 10/5/2018 9:43 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bill Degnan
<billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing
Guide" for the Model 51/52 floppy units
steve
Al, so you're saying, "yes please scan
the MPI 91/21 product manual"?
MPI 91/92 I meant.
6:43 p.m.
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
I've scanned something called the "MPI
Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing Guide"
for the Model 51/52 floppy units
Is that the same as:
http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf
?
Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI
B51/B52?
The QT Systems ad in Infoworld that Google comes up with as an early hit
says 77 track (not 80). It correctly refers to the B51 as "Sgl
sided, Sgl/Dbl Den", but refers to the B52 as "Sgl Sided,
Dbl Den", rather than double sided single/double density.
So, although 77 V 80 tracks is a definite possibility in those days, the
reliability of the specs in that ad are questionable.
The B51 was the first non-SHugart 5.25" drive that I ever had.
substituting it for the SA400 was truly trivial.
Motor speed seemed to wander a bit, but the track alignment held more
stably than the SA400.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
7:04 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 6:43 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
<snip>
I've scanned something called the "MPI
Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing
Guide"
for the Model 51/52 floppy units
Is that the same as:
http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf
?
Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52. I bet one could glean
*most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all. Could be
totally different too. The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his
91 "into" a 51. But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned,
surprised.
B
7:21 p.m.
On 10/05/2018 04:04 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52. I
bet one could glean
*most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all. Could be
totally different too. The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his
91 "into" a 51. But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned,
surprised.
I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the
51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never
encountered it in the wild.
--Chuck
8:20 p.m.
On 10/05/2018 05:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Check my shelves, I think the 52M is Micropolis, but 100 tpi.
I'd have to double-check, but it looks that way at first glance.
Damn, I'm getting old. I used to remember stuff like this.
--Chuck
I seem to remember that there was a
"combo" manual that covered the
51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never
encountered it in the wild.
double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature?
8:42 p.m.
On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the
> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never
> encountered it in the wild.
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique
feature?
Interesting.
http://www.mfarris.com/floppy/mpi.html
shows 'M', 'S', and "M-S" suffixes.
In OTHER brands, the Tandon TM100-4M was much like the TM100-4, except
with 100TPI, instead of 96TPI. ("M for Micropolis compatible", and some
of the TM100-4M drives did not have an 'M' on the nameplate!)
(For those not familiar, Micropolis made a 100 TPI drive, and a few
companies made provision for that.)
But, what Micropolis features would be desirable in a 48TPI drive?
And what was the difference between a 92M, a 92S, a 92M-002, and a 102M-S
If it were "91"/"92"/"91M"/"92M", then that would
seem comparable to the
Tandon TM100-3/TM100-4/TM100-4M.
And what is the 101/102, if not 100tpi versions of the 91/92?
Course, thei all might be irrelevant if the differences were lead-screw
(what my micropolis 48tpi had), V split band positioner, (like my MPI
B51s, which were the only MPIs that I had)
OR difference in OTHER specs such as for faster drives? (Lead screw tends
to be slower than split-band)
Was there ever any brand of drive where the alignment of the second side
head was a DIFFERENT offset than the USUAL offset from the position of the
first side head?
Over the lifespan of 5.25" drives, there have been a few changes in some
signals, such as READY, DiskChange, Density, etc. Even to the point that
Tandy used pin 32 for fourth drive select, and then the drive
manufacturers used it for side select.
10:52 p.m.
On 10/05/2018 05:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Again, I don't recall. I do have a couple of 100 tpi MPI 5.25"
drives--I'm just not sure about what they're called.
Micropolis interface also, IIRC, had a *slightly* different pinout from
the standard Shugart SA400.
(pause while he checks)
Pin 2 - Head load
Pin 6 - Ready
Pin 34 Drive select 4
Just different enough to make for a little confusion.
I do have a Tandon TM-100-4M here with a "96 TPI DSR" sticker under the
latch, so the factory probably wasn't too careful about that.
Of course, neither Tandon nor MPI produced a drive that was even close
to Micropolis. But almost nobody was as expensive as Micropolis either.
Micropolis never gave up, IIRC, on its 4-steps-per-cylinder precision
leadscrew setup.
I've got a Micropolis 1115-VI drive here and it's a heavy wonder to
behold. The whole stepper motor, leadscrew and head assembly pivots on
the drive door--usually, the stepper is attached to the main body of the
drive.
Further, it's a drive that features a microcontroller for drive spindle
speed control (no adjustments) as well as for providing a "buffered
seek" capability. Fire step pulses at it at rates slower than 6
msec/step and it behaves normally. Fire pulses at between 3-5 msec and
the drive goes into buffered seek mode.
It's a wonder to behold and, IIRC, was substantially more expensive than
anyone else's 5.25" floppy drives. Sort of the antithesis of Jugi
Tandon's "make 'em cheap" approach.
No wonder Micropolis went out of the floppy business.
--Chuck
On 10/5/18
4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the
> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102.?? Also, there was a 52M, but I never
> encountered it in the wild.
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature?
6 Oct
6 Oct
1:05 a.m.
Of course, neither Tandon nor MPI produced a drive that was even close
to Micropolis. But almost nobody was as expensive as Micropolis either.
Micropolis never gave up, IIRC, on its 4-steps-per-cylinder precision
leadscrew setup.
I've got a Micropolis 1115-VI drive here and it's a heavy wonder to
behold. The whole stepper motor, leadscrew and head assembly pivots on
the drive door--usually, the stepper is attached to the main body of the
drive.
Further, it's a drive that features a microcontroller for drive spindle
speed control (no adjustments) as well as for providing a "buffered
seek" capability. Fire step pulses at it at rates slower than 6
msec/step and it behaves normally. Fire pulses at between 3-5 msec and
the drive goes into buffered seek mode.
It's a wonder to behold and, IIRC, was substantially more expensive than
anyone else's 5.25" floppy drives. Sort of the antithesis of Jugi
Tandon's "make 'em cheap" approach.
No wonder Micropolis went out of the floppy business.
--Chuck
Not sure if you have ever compared MPI, Tandon, and Micropolis versions of
the Commodore CBM 8050 dual IEEE disk drives. Each had a totally different
approach to the same job, the diagnostics used to rest them were totally
different.
Bill
1:55 a.m.
One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy drives--the early drives (1014,
etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate. The later drives (1115)
used cast body parts.
It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the
best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives.
--Chuck
19 Oct
19 Oct
4:32 p.m.
just an update, I have not forgotten this task, I just need to find time to
get to a two-sided printer. I really need to get one for my self with big
copy bay to handle schematics. That would really accelerate my archive work
b
On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 1:55 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy drives--the
early drives (1014,
etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate. The later drives (1115)
used cast body parts.
It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the
best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives.
--Chuck
25 Oct
25 Oct
3:28 p.m.
Hi - I finished the scan of the MPI 91/92. I did it at Kinkos and it cost
me $54, and wow that's expensive. I should have asked before I dropped off
the manual. I kind of assumed it'd be more like $20. I don't have an easy
way to scan a plastic spiral-bound two sided document with pull out
schematics unless I do each page by hand.
If anyone wants the file, it's real nice and suitable for archive.org, and
includes schematics
https://www.vintagecomputer.net/MPI/
So that brings me to the question - Should I buy a nice scanner that
handles two sided and schematic prints?...I have so many things more I
could scan if I had something cost effective. That's the last time I do
the Kinkos thing. I prefer to do this kind of work on my own.
Also of note I just finished the RCA COSMAC Microkit manual MPM 103,
obtained from the Hagley Museum archives in Wilminton, Delaware. They have
a treasure trove there. It's impossible to assemble the Microkit without
the manual, each card has a specific slot in the backplane. This is a
computer made with an early version of the two-chip 1801 CPU card, before
it was called "1801". More info is on my web site. So far I have the
current loop operating but the terminal card appears to be on the fritz or
altered for some other purpose that originally designed. I cannot yet
interact with a teletype. The COSMAC Microkit is a complete microcomputer
that pre-dates by a month or two the MITS Altair. A worthy project.
Next - a nice ROHM 1601 sales brochure.
I try to scan only what appears to not already be available on the
better-known archiving sites.
Bill
vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:32 PM Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
just an update, I have not forgotten this task, I just
need to find time
to get to a two-sided printer. I really need to get one for my self with
big copy bay to handle schematics. That would really accelerate my archive
work
b
On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 1:55 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy
drives--the early drives (1014,
etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate. The later drives (1115)
used cast body parts.
It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the
best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives.
--Chuck
7 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 1:28 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So that brings me to the question - Should I buy a
nice scanner that
handles two sided and schematic prints?...I have so many things more I
could scan if I had something cost effective. That's the last time I do
the Kinkos thing. I prefer to do this kind of work on my own.
I occasionally have to scan B-size (11x17 inch) drawings, and the cheapest
scanner I know of that can do that is the HP OfficeJet Pro 7740 all-in-one,
which is also a B-size inkjet printer. It costs about $250 retail, but can
sometimes be found for $200.
The scanner only does a single side, so you have to flip the page over
manuall. There is a sheet feeder for A-size and similar only; for B-size
you have to use it as a flatbed.
If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size, expect to spend a pretty
good chunk of change even for a used one.
7:16 p.m.
On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size,
expect to spend a pretty
good chunk of change even for a used one.
I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW
duplex tabloid color scanner
They can be found used for <$500 now
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578
7:18 p.m.
On 10/25/18 4:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
They also can scan LONG drawings (up to 100")
If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for
B-size, expect to spend a pretty
good chunk of change even for a used one.
I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW
duplex tabloid color scanner
They can be found used for <$500 now
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578
26 Oct
26 Oct
9:08 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 1:21 AM Al Kossow via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
Thanks Al, I am going to go on your authority :-)
If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for
B-size, expect to spend a
pretty
good chunk of change even for a used one.
I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW
duplex tabloid color scanner
They can be found used for <$500 now
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578 
27 Oct
27 Oct
3:02 a.m.
On 26.10.18 01:16, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
If you are willing to go with obsolete interfaces :
my Firewire-only duplex/A3 Kodak i280 scanner was mine for 100 Euro.
Sheet feeder works OK, unit even has a inkjet printer to label scanned sheets wit a code.
Can fully recommend it.
Jos
If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for
B-size, expect to spend a pretty
good chunk of change even for a used one.
I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW
duplex tabloid color scanner
They can be found used for <$500 now
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578
5 Oct
5 Oct
7:23 p.m.
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Bill Degnan wrote:
The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52. I
bet one could glean
*most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all. Could be
totally different too. The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his
91 "into" a 51. But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned,
surprised.
Converting a 91/92 into a 51/52 would require a different HEAD, as well as
changing the stepper. Stepping could be dealt with in software, to double
step, but the narrower head means that it would not do an acceptable job
of RE-writing tracks that had been previously written by a "normal" 48tpi
drive, and that would ever need to be READ later by a "normal" 48tpi
drive.
Unless there is some DESPERATE need for the push button door latch,
cosmetic match, or something, it would make more sense to find a 48tpi drive.
OTOH, it is likely (NOT A CERTAINTY) that the 91/92 is similar enough that
parts other than head or stepper from 91/92 could be used to repair a
broken 51/52.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8:15 p.m.
On 10/5/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 6:43 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
In 1982, this Infoworld article shows MPI in on a standards group for
microfloppies.? They were not a player with a lot of room to stumble,
and I believe they didn't do much with the 91/92 technology because of
lack of sales.? They were betting on the 3 1/2" market, and will look
around to see if I can find info on that.
The following google scan barf is for Infoworld, September 13, 1982, page 6.
https://books.google.com/books?id=EDAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&d…
Lists members of a group to standardize form, as well as that there are
those working on a 3" media.
The 1982 time frame fits with our maintaining their Microdata system,
and worth mentioning we lost them as a customer for that due to their
business not going so well.
In Jan 1983, they bought for stock a head company
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1983/01/24/BUSINESS-BRIEFS/1727412232400/
"Micro Peripherals Inc. said Monday it has acquired in return for MPI
stock assets of the floppy disk magnetic recording head operations of
Information Magnetics Corp., a subsidiary of Computer & Communications
Technology Corp."
There isn't much in the trade press other than this I found.
thanks
Jim
thanks
Jim
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk
wrote:
<snip>
I've scanned something called the "MPI
Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing
Guide"
for the Model 51/52 floppy units
Is that
the same as:
http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf
?
Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI
7:04 p.m.
On 10/5/2018 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
I have the MPI version of this manual.? There is also a schematic for
the board I grabbed somewhere.
I've scanned something called the "MPI
Flexible Disk Drive
Interfacing Guide" for the Model 51/52 floppy units
Is that the same as:
http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf
?
Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI
version of the MPI
B51/B52?
I believe it is.
The QT Systems ad in Infoworld that Google comes up
with as an early
hit says 77 track (not 80).? It correctly refers to the B51 as "Sgl
sided, Sgl/Dbl Den", but refers to the B52 as "Sgl Sided, Dbl Den",
rather than double sided single/double density.
So, although 77 V 80 tracks is a definite possibility in those days,
the reliability of the specs in that ad are questionable.
The B51 was the first non-SHugart 5.25" drive that I ever had.
substituting it for the SA400 was truly trivial.
Motor speed seemed to wander a bit, but the track alignment held more
stably than the SA400.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com
8:14 p.m.
Nope.? not the same.?? did a page by page comparison,? *very* close on
most of the specs - but when you get to a J1 pinout diagram for the
cable, there are significant differences.? The 51/52 uses extra lines
that the B51/52 shows as not used.
Steve
On 10/5/2018 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
I've scanned something called the "MPI
Flexible Disk Drive
Interfacing Guide" for the Model 51/52 floppy units
Is that the same as:
http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf
?
Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI
B51/B52?
The QT Systems ad in Infoworld that Google comes up with as an early
hit says 77 track (not 80).? It correctly refers to the B51 as "Sgl
sided, Sgl/Dbl Den", but refers to the B52 as "Sgl Sided, Dbl Den",
rather than double sided single/double density.
So, although 77 V 80 tracks is a definite possibility in those days,
the reliability of the specs in that ad are questionable.
The B51 was the first non-SHugart 5.25" drive that I ever had.
substituting it for the SA400 was truly trivial.
Motor speed seemed to wander a bit, but the track alignment held more
stably than the SA400.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com
2046
days inactive
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days old
26 comments
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