18 Mar
1998
18 Mar
'98
2:59 p.m.
Hi all.
It's come to my attention that there's some discussion on
classiccmp regarding the administration of the list. I'll
get back to those that have contacted me asap. I haven't
read the list in months and only do basic addition and
removal of addresses at this point. My work and personal
lives have made it impossible to be any more active with
classiccmp.
I encourage you to organize as you desire, by whatever
means you can agree on if you haven't already done so.
I will continue to do basic list maintenance as much
as I'm available.
Please don't count on me for anything at this point. I
think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the
initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll
have the time to just read it again.
If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else
would like to take over with their own listserv, it would
be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think.
If you can live with the current level of administration,
I have no problem continuing to host the listserv.
Sorry to have let you guys hang - I've been meaning to
make a post of this nature for some time and it never
made it high enough up the priorities list.
--------------------------------------------------------
Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu
Network Administrator (425) 352-5209
University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275
18 Mar
18 Mar
4:37 p.m.
Personally I think the list is great and have noticed NO difficulties
whatsoever in its administration.
I would hate to see it pass into the hands of someone who clearly does
not have the best interests of others in mind but merely wishes to
control it for the purposes of ego inflation.
I think the list is wonderful Bill and, aside from one person who is
clearly incapable of behaving in a rational and courteous manner, should
remain precisely as it is.
That's my two cents worth...
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
If current arrangements are unworkable and someone
else
would like to take over with their own listserv, it would
be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think.
If you can live with the current level of administration,
I have no problem continuing to host the listserv.
4:51 p.m.
OK,
I've received significant help from list members here in the
past, and _really_ don't want to see it disappear. I understand how
family pressures make the sustained effort of mail list maintenance
sometimes an impossibility (Hey, I ran a BBS for four years in the
80's like most of us here). So, I offer to take on list management
_if necessary_. I'm perfectly happy to share these responsibilities
with other members as well. In fact, if a whole bunch of other people
chime up and want to take on the task, I'll _gladly_ bow out! ;-)
But I'd rather take on the headache of being the list
maintainer than see classiccmp die out from bickering and off topic
posts because of ineffective list maintenance. Bill, you started a
wonderful thing, but I think, at least right now, we need heavier
moderation.
There are a few other folks I'd rather see in the drivers seat
before me. Tim Shoppa and Allison, for example, would both make
better choices than I (and if you guys want it, I'm outta your way).
However, this is _an_ offer; currently no one else seems to have
chimed up.
I can arrange to have a Majordomo or Listproc list manager in
place at one of several hosts if necessary, but I think it would be to
everyone's benefit if the 'classiccmp' address remained the same. I
hope I haven't overstepped my bounds here...
Respectfully,
J. Maynard Gelinas
Hi all.
It's come to my attention that there's some discussion on
classiccmp regarding the administration of the list. I'll
get back to those that have contacted me asap. I haven't
read the list in months and only do basic addition and
removal of addresses at this point. My work and personal
lives have made it impossible to be any more active with
classiccmp.
I encourage you to organize as you desire, by whatever
means you can agree on if you haven't already done so.
I will continue to do basic list maintenance as much
as I'm available.
Please don't count on me for anything at this point. I
think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the
initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll
have the time to just read it again.
If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else
would like to take over with their own listserv, it would
be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think.
If you can live with the current level of administration,
I have no problem continuing to host the listserv.
Sorry to have let you guys hang - I've been meaning to
make a post of this nature for some time and it never
made it high enough up the priorities list.
--------------------------------------------------------
Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu
Network Administrator (425) 352-5209
University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275
5:56 p.m.
I think it would be appropriate to have a vote rather than to assign the
task arbitrarily to someone. While Bill has the right to handle it
however he wants I think the most prudent approach would be to select
several nominees and vote for them.
Keep in mind that moderation rarely solves the kinds of problems we're
seeing but rather creates a hard target for those who would rather insult
and criticize others...so that the goal of a malcontent becomes not so
much to try to control everyone else but to constantly harass and
criticize the moderators.
Again, my two cents worth.
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
But I'd rather take on the headache of being the
list
maintainer than see classiccmp die out from bickering and off topic
posts because of ineffective list maintenance. Bill, you started a
wonderful thing, but I think, at least right now, we need heavier
moderation.
5:52 p.m.
I do not _want_ the job, I am simply willing to do it. I
would _prefer_ Allison or Tim Shoppa, as I think they have better
legacy systems experiance than I. Also, they have been on this list
longer than most of us, and seem to have the best detailed technical
knowledge of us all. So, if we vote I nominate either Allison or Tim
Shoppa (or both), if they're willing to do the job. Of course, the
current maintainer is the _best_ choice if he can find the time to
help out. Clearly, we are going through a list crisis right now and
_someone_ impartial must deal with it.
If no one else chimes up I am able to handle the job. I have
systems at my disposal which can handle list management, I've been on
the list for a good while and know the principle players; I know what
the content of this list is like when it's 'going good.'
I _don't want_ to 'take over' the list, nor am I in a position
to do so. I could care less who runs it as long as he/she is
responsible and fair; it would be a big plus if he/she involved
him/herself in the discussion regularly as well. I just want my mbox
to stop resembling *.advocacy, and *.flame and get back to discussing
systems over 10 years old.
J. Maynard Gelinas
I think it would be appropriate to have a vote rather than to assign the
task arbitrarily to someone. While Bill has the right to handle it
however he wants I think the most prudent approach would be to select
several nominees and vote for them.
Keep in mind that moderation rarely solves the kinds of problems we're
seeing but rather creates a hard target for those who would rather insult
and criticize others...so that the goal of a malcontent becomes not so
much to try to control everyone else but to constantly harass and
criticize the moderators.
Again, my two cents worth.
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
But I'd rather take on the headache of being
the list
maintainer than see classiccmp die out from bickering and off topic
posts because of ineffective list maintenance. Bill, you started a
wonderful thing, but I think, at least right now, we need heavier
moderation.
11:43 p.m.
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4:55 p.m.
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Bill Whitson wrote:
I encourage you to organize as you desire, by
whatever
means you can agree on if you haven't already done so.
<...>
Please don't count on me for anything at this
point. I
think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the
initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll
have the time to just read it again.
If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else
would like to take over with their own listserv, it would
be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think.
If you can live with the current level of administration,
I have no problem continuing to host the listserv.
Ok fine. Until I'm able to take over ClassicCmp completely, we can put a
few issues to a vote. I thought we already decided a couple months back
that the definition as it stands in the FAQ of what is acceptable to
discuss was appropriate. If there is going to be a need to re-visit this
issue every 6 weeks then you may as well call this mailing
list alt.off-topic.
Here are the issues I propose:
1. The current definition of what is acceptable to discuss in ClassicCmp
is fine: YES or NO
For reference:
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail.
Well, I guess that sums it up. If we can agree to a referendum on this
single issue then we can put it to a vote and see what happens. If a
clear majority votes NO then we can vote on a new definition of the FAQ.
My vote is to avoid this whole mess by having people respect the
guidelines of the existing definition.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
5:28 p.m.
At 02:55 PM 3/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
Ok fine. Until I'm able to take over ClassicCmp
completely, we can put a
few issues to a vote.
Does that mean that we get to vote only until you "take over ClasscCmp
completely?" Who are you exactly? Just curious.
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
19 Mar
19 Mar
1:02 a.m.
David Wollmann wrote:
At 02:55 PM 3/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
Just a bigheaded bully as demonstrated in the past....
Ok fine. Until I'm able to take over
ClassicCmp completely, we can put a
few issues to a vote.
Does that mean that we get to vote only until you "take over ClasscCmp
completely?" Who are you exactly? Just curious.
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
--
========================================================
Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK
Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile)
please visit my website at: <http://www.brighton-uk.com>
========================================================
18 Mar
18 Mar
6:18 p.m.
Sam, if you attempt to take over the mailing list I will proceed in the
following manner. I am the sysadmin of a major ISP and so I have the
means to carry out the following:
1. I will select a group of individuals who are respected by all and ask
them to prepare a set of by-laws.
2. I will prepare an arrangment, with checks and balances to insure
against cheating, to tally votes.
3. I will set up a mailing list server, most of which I've already done
for other projects.
4. I will put to a vote who the moderators should be and what version of
the bylaws will be chosen etc etc etc. I will NOT be in control.
To suggest that you will take control of the group, which I've been
saying for two days is your entire goal anyway, is absolutely
outrageous. You've demonstrated nothing but malice toward everyone who
even suggests that your approach should be tempered with reason. I can't
imagine how you could be a fair and impartial moderator or how such a
group, if moderated or controlled in any way by you, could be anything
other than a means for you to stroke your own ego and have victims upon
which to rain down inappropriate wrath.
Everything that you accuse others of and insist that they stop doing, you
yourself do. I do not intend this as an insult but as a statement of
fact, which can be proven or disproven in an appropriate manner, but I
can come to no reasonable conclusion but that you are actually mentally ill.
I can see no other alternative based on your continuously outrageous and
consistently malicious behavior wherein your accusations of ill behavior
are a precise description of your own behavior.
At this point, and I genuinely mean this not as an insult but as a
compassionate gesture, I can only say that I feel sorry for you.
In light of this I can only implore the current constituency of this
mailing list and the powers that be (Bill) NOT to turn over control of
this group to you in any way, shape or form. To do so would be like
throwing baby chicks to the fox.
I have no wish to have personal control of the list in any way shape or
form but I will be happy to provide the means for those who would
genuinely run the group in the best interests of the group to do so. My
ISP has been in business for 4 years and I have a long-term committment
to work there and the authority and latitude to allocate resources to an
APPROPRIATELY SELECTED group of moderators but only if the bylaws and
moderators are chosen by a fair vote.
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Bill Whitson wrote:
I encourage you to organize as you desire, by
whatever
means you can agree on if you haven't already done so.
<...>
Please don't count on me for anything at this
point. I
think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the
initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll
have the time to just read it again.
If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else
would like to take over with their own listserv, it would
be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think.
If you can live with the current level of administration,
I have no problem continuing to host the listserv.
Ok fine. Until I'm able to take over ClassicCmp completely, we can put a
few issues to a vote. I thought we already decided a couple months back
that the definition as it stands in the FAQ of what is acceptable to
discuss was appropriate. If there is going to be a need to re-visit this
issue every 6 weeks then you may as well call this mailing
list alt.off-topic.
Here are the issues I propose:
1. The current definition of what is acceptable to discuss in ClassicCmp
is fine: YES or NO
For reference:
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail.
Well, I guess that sums it up. If we can agree to a referendum on this
single issue then we can put it to a vote and see what happens. If a
clear majority votes NO then we can vote on a new definition of the FAQ.
My vote is to avoid this whole mess by having people respect the
guidelines of the existing definition.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
5:47 p.m.
Well, I have had it with this group. I am going to ignore any messages I
get for a while - later I will check back and if it does not improve, I am
out for good.
Now I see why a lot of people I know are not on this list.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
6:09 p.m.
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:18:46 -0600 (CST), you said:
<snip>
In light of this I can only implore the current
constituency of this
mailing list and the powers that be (Bill) NOT to turn over control of
this group to you in any way, shape or form.
I believe that I have no right to turn over control as I am not in
control. Bill Whitson is in control and I will respect (only) his
decisions. This is HIS list to do with as he sees fit, my choices are
to stay/read or to leave.
_______________
Barry Peterson bmpete(a)swbell.net
Husband to Diane, Father to Doug,
Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan.
11:01 p.m.
Amen! Sam has slammed me in the past for standing up for "bleeding
hearts" like you, and I think it's time we "bleeding hearts" got
together and kicked some a**! We like machines, but we don't have to
_act_ like them. We can talk (mostly) about classic computing while
still acknowledging and respecting each other's unique experiences and
feelings. All this time I've seen Sam's name, and kept thinking that
somehow this all made sense. It's finally come to me; it was just a
spelling error! Go to sea, Sam - GO TO SEA!
(with apologies to Herman Melville)
Call me Ishmael. Some years ago--never mind how long precisely
--having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to
interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see
the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the
spleen, and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself
growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November
in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin
warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and
especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it
requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately
stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats
off--then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:18:46 -0600 (CST), Wirehead Prime
<wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com> wrote:
Sam, if you attempt to take over the mailing list I will proceed in the
following manner.
<snip>
In light of this I can only implore the current
constituency of this
mailing list and the powers that be (Bill) NOT to turn over control of
this group to you in any way, shape or form. To do so would be like
throwing baby chicks to the fox.
-Bill Richman
bill_r(a)inetnebr.com
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
(Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!)
19 Mar
19 Mar
12:55 a.m.
Bill Whitson wrote:
Hi all.
It's come to my attention that there's some discussion on
classiccmp regarding the administration of the list. I'll
get back to those that have contacted me asap. I haven't
read the list in months and only do basic addition and
removal of addresses at this point. My work and personal
lives have made it impossible to be any more active with
classiccmp.
I think that most of the problems here prove the critics a made months ago
when I joined the list (for which I was castigated).
I think that a great part of the problems is that you (we) look at computers
as pieces of plastic, metal and rubber and not as what they meant and mean to
the heart and minds of millions of people.
Regards
enrico
========================================================
Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK
Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile)
please visit my website at: <http://www.brighton-uk.com>
========================================================
9791
days inactive
9792
days old
13 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
bcw＠u.washington.edu -
bill_r＠inetnebr.com -
bmpete＠swbell.net -
dastar＠wco.com -
dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com -
e.tedeschi＠ndirect.co.uk -
jmg＠iac.net -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca -
william＠ans.net -
wirehead＠retrocomputing.com