25 May
2005
25 May
'05
6:56 a.m.
Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up until the point
the chap switched it on to show me it working, when it promptly
broke :-)
On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about 1.5" high;
after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes to flickering amber
with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible.
Just thought I'd quickly ask in case there's component foo that's a
common failure in these machines (I haven't even pulled the case to look
for an obvious failure yet, let alone do anything else)
ta
Jules
25 May
25 May
4:08 p.m.
Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up until the point
the chap switched it on to show me it working, when it promptly
broke :-)
On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about 1.5" high;
after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes to flickering amber
with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible.
You have tried fiddling with the 2 user controls?
What I would do is :
Pull the case (it's the 6 screws on the front), take off the sheilds, etc
if they're there. You'll see the CGA card in the slot on the left, next
to the PSU/monitor. The monitor video is the yellow/black pair plugged
into this card. Unplug it, also unplug the monitor power. I can't
rememmber where this 2-pin connector is located, it may well be in the
cable tunnel under the chassis.
Connect a CGA monitor to the DE9 on the CGA card and power up. Even
without a boot disk, it should do the memory test and fall into ROM
BASIC. If not, you've got a logic problem to debug.
Try again, this time with a composite monitor (US TV rates) connected to
the RCA socket on the CGA card. Ifyou get no display this time, debug the
composite video circuit on the CGA card. If that works, then it's a good
bet there's a signal on the intneral monitor connector too, the only
thing that could remove it would be a cracked track.
OK, now we need to look at the monitor itself. The first problem is
getting inside it. From what I remmeber, it's assembled with Bristol
Spline screws, with the odd tamperproof Torx in the PSU. The former are
not easy to get drivers for, I have a set, but they weren't cheap.
The monitor is fairly conventional (and I have the IBM TechRef schematic,
which I think has a few typos on it -- 'H2VDC' is really '+12VDC' (!).
It's clearly a Zenith chassis, and the only IC has a Zenith part number
( 221-86 ). That's clearly the line (horizontal) oscillator and may be
something like an LM1391, but I am not certain.
Still, you're not looking for a horizontal fault yet.
The next useful thing is that the first digit of the component reference
number gives the area it's used in :
1 : Horizontal
2 : CRT
3 : Vertical
4 : Video
Some useful component references for you :
Q401 Video Output
Q402 Video Driver
Q403 Video Amp 2
Q404 Video Amp 1
Q405 Video Amp 3
Q406 Video Drive 1
Q407 Video Clamp
Q408 Not used
Q409 Sunc Seperator
Q301 Vert Osc
Q302 Osc 1
Q303 Diff Amp
Q304 Vert Driver
Q305 not used
Q306 Vert Output
Q307 Vert Output
Q308 Vert Retrace
That should be enough to get you started.
-tony
26 May
26 May
4:19 a.m.
On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 00:08 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Yep, those seem to work as expected.
Unplugging the feed from the CGA card results in a black screen, so it's
not as simple (as suggested on here) as it just being a connection
issue...
Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up until the point
the chap switched it on to show me it working, when it promptly
broke :-)
On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about 1.5" high;
after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes to flickering amber
with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible.
You have tried fiddling with the 2 user controls?
What I would do is :
Pull the case (it's the 6 screws on the front),
Way ahead of you there - I've dismantled it sufficiently to at least
check it's not something obvious. Like you say though, connecting the
CGA output to a known-good monitor's probably the next step in order to
see whether it's a display fault or a logic problem. The screen
appearance makes it look more like it's on the display side of things,
but there's no guarantee at the moment.
(incidentally there are signs that it tries to boot, it gets annoyed and
beeps if the keyboard isn't plugged in etc., so it looks like most of
the digital side of things is happy at the very least.)
From what I remmeber, it's assembled with Bristol
Spline screws, with the odd tamperproof Torx in the PSU. The former are
not easy to get drivers for, I have a set, but they weren't cheap.
Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to
find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair
of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting
replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly!
[snip]
That should be enough to get you started.
Yep - many thanks! :)
seeya
Jules
5:56 p.m.
Way ahead of you there - I've dismantled it
sufficiently to at least
check it's not something obvious. Like you say though, connecting the
CGA output to a known-good monitor's probably the next step in order to
see whether it's a display fault or a logic problem. The screen
Exactly. You don't want to spend time looking for a fault in the wrong place!
appearance makes it look more like it's on the
display side of things,
but there's no guarantee at the moment.
(incidentally there are signs that it tries to boot, it gets annoyed and
beeps if the keyboard isn't plugged in etc., so it looks like most of
the digital side of things is happy at the very least.)
There's a bit of circuitry on the output side of the CGA card that can't
be checked by the POST,
From what I remmeber, it's assembled with
Bristol
Spline screws, with the odd tamperproof Torx in the PSU. The former are
not easy to get drivers for, I have a set, but they weren't cheap.
Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to
find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair
of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting
replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly!
27 May
27 May
4:11 a.m.
On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life
difficult for the next person who comes along and has to fix the
machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that
people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often,
but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section.
That requirement's gone now; if someone owns one of these beasts these
days then they're presumably just as likely to be inside the display
section to fix stuff as they are digging around in the rest of the
innards; doesn't it make sense to use the same type of screw throughout?
If the bristol-type screws were used externally or in a prominent
position, or exclusively throughout the machine I think I'd agree with
you, but the requirement to have a special tool to get to the display
circuitry is long gone.
Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes
to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc.
everywhere even if it's somewhere that can't be seen - but then it
doesn't use oddball fastenings that not many people have the right tool
for :-)
cheers
Jules
Oh heck, yes.
I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to
find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair
of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting
replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly!
NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very
strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them
with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely
you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) 
9:32 a.m.
On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life
difficult for the next person who comes along and has to fix the
machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that
people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often,
but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section.
Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note
explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the
computer somewhere.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Oh heck,
yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to
find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair
of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting
replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly!
NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very
strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them
with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely
you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...)
6:31 p.m.
Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for
Tony, with a note
explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the
computer somewhere.
A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that
fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't
think future repairers will have a full toolkit.
-tony
7:58 p.m.
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept
with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e.
wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the
machine negatively.
Unless you can come up with a good reason why this should not be done.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Just place the
originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note
explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the
computer somewhere.
A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that
fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't
think future repairers will have a full toolkit. 
11:08 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:58 PM
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept
with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e.
wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the
machine negatively.
Unless you can come up with a good reason why this should not be done.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
The point is it is easier to keep it original that to restore it. If you
tape the screws in it and they get lost there is a problem, if you tape a
wrench in it and it gets lost it is still original.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
Just
place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note
explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of
the
computer somewhere.
A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that
fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't
think future repairers will have a full toolkit.
28 May
28 May
4:30 p.m.
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept
Are you going to also include a diagram showing which screws were
originally Bristol Spline, or do you assume future restorers/historians
have the original engineering drawings?
Anyway, small parts have tendency to get lost. It's not serious if a
Bristol Spline _key_ goes astray, that was never part of the original
machine. But the screws were.
Just
place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note
explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the
computer somewhere.
A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that
fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't
think future repairers will have a full toolkit. with the machine and the replacement screws do not
somehow do damage (i.e.
wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the
machine negatively.
Next you'll be telling me that it's OK to replace the guts of all classic
computers with a PC running an emulator provided you keep the original
boards with the machine....
Jules has originally proposed a reason (which I fully agree with) as to
why these screws were used in the first place. That is something that
might be of interest to future enthusiasts. Heck, it's of interst to me
now. There is no good reason why that information should be lost
There are people who collect the original packaging for classic
computers, who won't assmble old Heathkits (:-(, becasue they somehow
feel that the way the components were packed is interesting, etc). I
don't say I agree with them, but I certainly don't think they're idiots
for caring about such things. Surely the internal parts of a machine are
as least as important as the packing it came in.
-tony
5:48 p.m.
It's not serious if a Bristol Spline _key_ goes
astray, that was never
part of the original machine.
Maybe not for the PC's we're talking about here, but many pieces of
classic equipment contain the special tools needed to work on them.
For example, many R-390A's have brackets on the back for the Bristol Spline
key and screwdriver, Tek scopes with ceramic terminal strips have a
little spool of the right kind of silver-bearing solder on a holder
inside, etc. For the nuts who insist on 100% authenticity, having the
original tools/rolls of solder does matter. There was a case last week
of a single spool of normal tin-lead solder selling for hundreds of $
just because of the name on the label!
Tim.
6:05 p.m.
but many pieces of classic equipment contain the
special tools
need to work on them. [R-390A and Tek scopes mentioned but not
strictly classiccmp]
One example that is strictly classiccmp is the board ejector handles
that came with 80's-era Fujitsu tape and disk drives. They screwed
onto the back of the drive in case they were ever needed. When you
needed them, you took them off, inserted the little prongs in the end
of the handle into the matching holes in the PCB's, and easily pull
the board out. It's possible with bare hands or pliers too but
hardly elegant :-).
Tim.
29 May
29 May
10:08 a.m.
It's not serious if a Bristol Spline _key_
goes astray, that was never
part of the original machine.
Maybe not for the PC's we're talking about here, but many pieces of
classic equipment contain the special tools needed to work on them. For example, many R-390A's have brackets on the
back for the Bristol Spline
key and screwdriver, Tek scopes with ceramic terminal strips have a
little spool of the right kind of silver-bearing solder on a holder
Only the better onse AFAIK. The 555 and 556 do, I don't think the 545
does....
inside, etc. For the nuts who insist on 100%
authenticity, having the
original tools/rolls of solder does matter. There was a case last week
I may not insist on originality, and I will certainly refill the reel of
solder inu my Tekky when I use it all up, but I do like the tools, etc to
be present. I would want to replace them with similar tools if they were
msising.
of a single spool of normal tin-lead solder selling
for hundreds of $
just because of the name on the label!
YEs, but presuambly that was to an Audiophool who actually thinks he can
hear the difference....
-tony
9:04 a.m.
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:30:35 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Jules has originally proposed a reason (which I fully agree with) as
to why these screws were used in the first place. That is something
that might be of interest to future enthusiasts. Heck, it's of interst
to me now. There is no good reason why that information should be lost
Indeed there isn't. Anybody who stares long enough at the 'No User
Servicible Parts Inside' labeling on an IBM XT power supply, then makes
the effort to find the right tool to open it up and finds the socketed
3AG fuse inside will know just a little bit more about IBM.
10:33 a.m.
Indeed there isn't. Anybody who stares long
enough at the 'No User
Servicible Parts Inside' labeling on an IBM XT power supply, then makes
the effort to find the right tool to open it up and finds the socketed
3AG fuse inside will know just a little bit more about IBM.
Well, I went further than that. I took the PSU apart, took out the PCBs,
and traced out the schematics (along with schematics of the other
'misisng' bits from the Techrefs, the PC/XT/AT supplies, the CGA monitor
supply, the EGA monitor, etc).
The Portable PSU is clearly a Zenith design, and is very similar to the
130W XT supply.
Now, as to that fuse. If it fails, there is a good reason for it.
Probably a shorted semiconductor on the mains side of the supply. It is
very unlikely that just replacing the fuse will do anything except blow
another fuse. And the average user, alas, when he finds a machine that
blows fuses will then put in the highest-rated fuse he can find, and
probably do a lot more damage. There are good reasons, IMHO, to put SMPSU
primary-side fuses away from normal users :-)
Of course if the user is me, then that label is total nonsense anyway. I
will hapilly replace chopper transsitors, etc...
Or is it? When I'm working on the machine, it's broken, and therefore I
can't be using it. So I am not a user :-)
-tony
3:22 p.m.
So,...
I should take out the wing nuts (and wing bolts) from my machines, and put
back all of the torx fasteners, etc. ?
What should I do about the holes that I cut for additional drives,
ventilation mods, chassis mount Blue Ribbon connections, etc?
BTW, I know much less about hardware than Tony knows about software, but
it doesn't take much knowledge of electronics to repair the physical break
of the power switch that was common in the second and third round of 63.5?
W supplies in the 5150. "No user serviceable parts", indeed. In the
space of 10 years, I repaired a dozen of them in a student access lab of
40 machines. The 130? W supplies had a subtly better switch whose
contacts stayed in place.
BTW2, I do NOT damage fasteners by cutting slots, etc. The PC came out in
August 1981. In September, I bored holes down the middle of torx bits.
(can't do very many with a cheap drill bit!)
It really isn't hard to get or make the right tool, if you WANT to keep it
original.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:49 p.m.
So,...
I should take out the wing nuts (and wing bolts) from my machines, and put
back all of the torx fasteners, etc. ?
Well, I probably would... But then I am rarely near a computer without a
good toolkit...
What should I do about the holes that I cut for additional drives,
ventilation mods, chassis mount Blue Ribbon connections, etc?
I did say something like 'make no unnecessary modifications'. I've
modified enough machines over the years that if I claimed modifications,
and hackery vwere a Bad Thing, it would clearly be a lie. And yes, I have
modified classic computers, even when they were already classic.
But those modifications were useful in that they improved the machine.
Extra drives, extra connectors, etc sound to be useful. But to replace
a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the right tool is not a
useful or nexessary modification.
BTW, I know much less about hardware than Tony knows about software, but
it doesn't take much knowledge of electronics to repair the physical break
of the power switch that was common in the second and third round of 63.5?
Ture.... (But if I had a pound for every time a PSU fault was described
to me as a 'broken on/off switch' I wouldn't be here :-). I am quite sure
these switches did break, but to many users any time a machine won't
power up, it must be the switch...)
BTW2, I do NOT damage fasteners by cutting slots, etc.
The PC came out in
August 1981. In September, I bored holes down the middle of torx bits.
(can't do very many with a cheap drill bit!)
Not if they're decent Torx bits, anyway :-). Nowadays the tamperproof
Torx bits are quite easy to find, thankfully.
It really isn't hard to get or make the right
tool, if you WANT to keep it
original.
I mentioned this thread to a friend of mine (who is an excellent hacker
and his comment was something like "He's working on IBM machines without
a set of Bristol Spline keys? Ouch!"
-tony
4:38 p.m.
But to replace a screw just becasue you can't be
bothered to get the
right tool is not a useful or nexessary modification.
It is if the bother involved in getting "the right tool" is high
enough. :-)
I, for example, would have no idea where to go to obtain a set of the
Bristol spline keys - unless possibly "ask Tony Duell to send me one
across the pond" counts. It's hard enough to find torxes, even.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
30 May
30 May
12:07 p.m.
But to replace a screw just becasue you can't
be bothered to get the
right tool is not a useful or nexessary modification.
It is if the bother involved in getting "the right tool" is high
enough. :-)
I, for example, would have no idea where to go to obtain a set of the
Bristol spline keys - unless possibly "ask Tony Duell to send me one
across the pond" counts. It's hard enough to find torxes, even.
Might I suggest a well-know search engine called 'google' Typing 'bristol
spline keys' (without the quotes) into that got a large number of hits,
many of which seemed to be companies who would sell such tools. Obviously
I've not tried any of them, but I can't believe nobody has them in stock.
Anyway, earlier in this thread I mentioned you could get them from Farnell.
-tony
2:06 p.m.
> I, for example, would have no idea where to go to
obtain a set of the
> Bristol spline keys - unless possibly "ask Tony Duell to send me one
> across the pond" counts. It's hard enough to find torxes, even.
On
Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Might I suggest a well-know search engine called
'google' Typing 'bristol
spline keys' (without the quotes) into that got a large number of hits,
many of which seemed to be companies who would sell such tools. Obviously
I've not tried any of them, but I can't believe nobody has them in stock.
Even eBay has close to a dozen listings
4:16 a.m.
On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 23:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Luckily computers don't seem to make much use of the type of bolt that
has the splines on the outside of the head... (I've got a set for car
work, but those weren't at all cheap when I got them)
I did say something like 'make no unnecessary
modifications'. I've
modified enough machines over the years that if I claimed modifications,
and hackery vwere a Bad Thing, it would clearly be a lie. And yes, I have
modified classic computers, even when they were already classic.
But those modifications were useful in that they improved the machine.
Extra drives, extra connectors, etc sound to be useful. But to replace
a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the right tool is not a
useful or nexessary modification.
But in this case the need for the uncommon types of screw has gone away,
you say the required tool is expensive, and it seems that it's hardly
used on any machines (although it would probably be justified if the
person was an IBM collector)
Given that it's also a common machine, it'd seem more sensible to me to
spend the money that would have gone on buying the tool on other aspects
of preservation instead. If I were coming across a flood of machines
needing this particular tool then it'd be a different matter, of course.
BTW2, I do NOT
damage fasteners by cutting slots, etc. The PC came out in
August 1981. In September, I bored holes down the middle of torx bits.
(can't do very many with a cheap drill bit!)
Not if they're decent Torx bits, anyway :-). Nowadays the tamperproof
Torx bits are quite easy to find, thankfully. > It really isn't hard to get or make the right
tool, if you WANT to keep it
> original.
I did wonder about it in the case of this IBM. I probably wouldn't be
able to make something that precise given the small size, though :-(
I mentioned this thread to a friend of mine (who is an
excellent hacker
and his comment was something like "He's working on IBM machines without
a set of Bristol Spline keys? Ouch!"
Hey, it was only two of them, and it's not like they were tucked away on
an inside edge somewhere! :-) Easy with a pair of good long-nosed pliers
- the time-consuming bit was digging out all of the various allen keys
etc. to see if I had something that would fit :)
cheers
Jules
12:23 p.m.
But those
modifications were useful in that they improved the machine.
Extra drives, extra connectors, etc sound to be useful. But to replace
a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the right tool is not a
useful or nexessary modification.
But in this case the need for the uncommon types of screw has gone away,
you say the required tool is expensive, and it seems that it's hardly used on any machines (although it would probably be
justified if the
person was an IBM collector)
THen please let an IBM collector restore this machine. Don't make it less
original than it has to be.
Given that it's also a common machine, it'd
seem more sensible to me to
spend the money that would have gone on buying the tool on other aspects
of preservation instead. If I were coming across a flood of machines
needing this particular tool then it'd be a different matter, of course.
Well, you never know when you might need it again (and surely there's at
least one Flexowriter at BP that will need repair sometime?). I never
object to spending money on tools (even though I have little money
now...). And I never object to buying good tools, they will hopefully
outlast me.
Luckily computers don't seem to make much use of
the type of bolt that
has the splines on the outside of the head... (I've got a set for car
work, but those weren't at all cheap when I got them)
I just pray you never get to work on a Feret. That thing is full of
System Zero screws which are similar to the reverse-torx, but not
compatible (and, indeed, designed to be difficult to remove with things
like Mole Grips). Yes I do have the right tools -- I bought them to work
on my Feret.
-tony
31 May
31 May
12:01 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I just pray you never get to work on a Feret. That thing is full of
System Zero screws which are similar to the reverse-torx, but not
compatible (and, indeed, designed to be difficult to remove with things
like Mole Grips). Yes I do have the right tools -- I bought them to work
on my Feret.
Are those the ones that are much flatter than a reverse Torx, but with
very thin splines and tapered so that pliers, moleys and the like just
slide off?
Gordon.
3:10 p.m.
[System Zero screws]
Are those the ones that are much flatter than a
reverse Torx, but with
very thin splines and tapered so that pliers, moleys and the like just
slide off?
Yes. Often used for minor security things, like CCTV cameras in public
places since most people don't have the tools to remove them.
-tony
29 May
29 May
9:49 a.m.
On Sun, 29 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
If it'll please you then yes, I recommend leaving a Tony Guide.
Haha. You're funny, Tony. You do realize it's a fairly large leap to go
I honestly
don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept
Are you going to also include a diagram showing which screws were
originally Bristol Spline, or do you assume future restorers/historians
have the original engineering drawings? Anyway, small parts have tendency to get lost.
It's not serious if a
Bristol Spline _key_ goes astray, that was never part of the original
machine. But the screws were.
This is an IBM 5155 we're talking about. There are enough examples of
that running out in the wild that I think it's pretty fucking saved.
with the
machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e.
wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the
machine negatively.
Next you'll be telling me that it's OK to replace the guts of all classic
computers with a PC running an emulator provided you keep the original
boards with the machine.... from swapping screws to RIPPING OUT THE INNARDS OF A
COMPUTER AND
REPLACING IT WITH A MODERN PC RUNNING AN EMULATOR, might you, perhaps,
agree?
Jules has originally proposed a reason (which I fully
agree with) as to
why these screws were used in the first place. That is something that
might be of interest to future enthusiasts. Heck, it's of interst to me
now. There is no good reason why that information should be lost
I agree. He should also probably include a copy of this thread in the
machine so people in the future can be bored with the mundane idiocies
that people in the year 2005 argued over.
There are people who collect the original packaging
for classic
computers, who won't assmble old Heathkits (:-(, becasue they somehow
feel that the way the components were packed is interesting, etc). I
don't say I agree with them, but I certainly don't think they're idiots
for caring about such things. Surely the internal parts of a machine are
as least as important as the packing it came in.
I don't recall calling you an "idiot", Tony. That word came flying out of
your fingers.
--
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7:24 a.m.
On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 19:58 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept
with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e.
wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the
machine negatively.
I'm still surprised that it affects the machine at all though (unlike
say things like cutting holes in cases). It's just a screw (plus of
course it's rare to see a machine where the motherboard slot screws are
all original anyway). If it makes life easier for anyone responsible for
maintaining the machine, and it doesn't do anything that can't be *very
easily* put back, then I'm surprised it's seen as a big deal.
Particularly on this specific machine, which is common as dirt.
Maybe there's a whole class of machines that use these screws. This
IBM's the only one I've come across that specifically needs a certain
tool (that doesn't get shipped with the machine).
cheers
Jules
Just
place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note
explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the
computer somewhere.
A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that
fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't
think future repairers will have a full toolkit.
10:08 a.m.
On Sun, 29 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
I'm still surprised that it affects the machine at
all though (unlike
say things like cutting holes in cases). It's just a screw (plus of
course it's rare to see a machine where the motherboard slot screws are
all original anyway). If it makes life easier for anyone responsible for
maintaining the machine, and it doesn't do anything that can't be *very
easily* put back, then I'm surprised it's seen as a big deal.
I don't see it as that big a deal. Like I said, I would also keep the
screws with the machine.
Particularly on this specific machine, which is common
as dirt.
I concur.
--
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10:28 a.m.
I'm still surprised that it affects the machine at
all though (unlike
Of course it dows. There were good reasons for the original choice of
screw at the time the machine was produced. Those reasons are so
important now, but they are part of the design of the machine.
say things like cutting holes in cases). It's just
a screw (plus of
course it's rare to see a machine where the motherboard slot screws are
all original anyway). If it makes life easier for anyone responsible for
Well, how many other non-original screws are in that machine?
maintaining the machine, and it doesn't do
anything that can't be *very
easily* put back, then I'm surprised it's seen as a big deal.
If it's so easy to put back, then put it back now.
Why not just buy the Bristol Spline key. I think you only need one size,
and I think Farnell sell the Xcellite 99 blades individually. Just buy
the tool and a handle, and there's no problem. If you _really_ want me
to, I'll take my 5155 apart, find out which blade you need, and post the
Xcellite number, etc.
Particularly on this specific machine, which is common
as dirt.
Is it? I've only seen one 'in the flesh', that's the one I own. They are
not that common.
Maybe there's a whole class of machines that use these screws. This
IBM's the only one I've come across that specifically needs a certain
tool (that doesn't get shipped with the machine).
Eh? How many computers come with even a flat-blade screwdriver? Let alone
nutdrivers, Torx drivers, Allen keys, soldering iron, pliers, cutters,
etc. All of which you are likely to need to work on at least some machines?
IBM were the main computer company to use Bristol Spline screws. They are
common in IBM typewriters, for example. And in Friden Flexowriters, as I
mentioned the other day.
-tony
10:49 a.m.
On Sun, 29 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I have at least 6, perhaps 7. And I now pass them up when I see them.
They are "not that common" in the sense that no computer that is 20 years
old is "not that common". But they are out there...in droves.
--
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Particularly
on this specific machine, which is common as dirt.
Is it? I've only seen one 'in the flesh', that's the one I own. They are
not that common.
27 May
27 May
6:10 p.m.
On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life
That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter
Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol
Spline drivers) should have a set.
Oh heck,
yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to
find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair
of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting
replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly!
NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very
strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them
with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely
you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) difficult for the next person who comes along and has
to fix the
machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that
people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often,
but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section.
That was exactly the reason (and the reason for using tamperproof Torx in
the PSU). Customers were only supposed to have normal tools, Failed
Servoids hat the Bristol spline tools as well (but couldn't therefore
open the PSU case).
According to one manual I've got, if an IBM service engineer saw that the
tamperproof torx screws on the PSU had been replaced with normal screws,
or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g.
removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer
was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!).
That requirement's gone now; if someone owns one of these beasts these
days then they're presumably just as likely to be inside the display
section to fix stuff as they are digging around in the rest of the
innards; doesn't it make sense to use the same type of screw throughout?
My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. This
doesn't mean not repairing a machine, it doesn't mean not using modern
components for replacements. But it does IMHO mean not replacing
components unnecessarily. In particular, I always replace the minimum
number of parts (e.g. a chip and not the complete PCB), and not replacing
screws with different types.
I have a set of Bristol spline keys, so I don't really worry about this.
I also have Torx, Allen hex, System Zero, and so on... I've found just
about all of them necessary for classic computer repairs.
I would have hoped a museumwould also want to keep machines as original
as possible, but then again my views on Bletchley Park are well known...
If the bristol-type screws were used externally or in a prominent
position, or exclusively throughout the machine I think I'd agree with
you, but the requirement to have a special tool to get to the display
circuitry is long gone.
Well, I don't think a Bristol Spline key is any more special than, say, a
Torx driver...
Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes
to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc.
What have you got?
everywhere even if it's somewhere that can't
be seen - but then it
doesn't use oddball fastenings that not many people have the right tool
for :-)
Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them,
and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth
spanners and sockets any more.
-tony
28 May
28 May
2:59 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft?
This is still the case for a lot of "no user serviceable parts inside"
bits from IBM. Billable call, and then some... 350 quid plus vat and
parts, or thereabouts.
Yup
Not if you guddle about inside old IBMS, no.
Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work, and reliably. If I
can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I
always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless
pipe nuts (just for an example). You can't play about with hydraulic
fluid at 4 tons per square inch, especially if it controls your brakes too!
Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro?ns I work on, all metric (but lots
of 7mm and 11mm bolts).
Gordon.
On Fri,
2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life
That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter
Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol
Spline drivers) should have a set. Oh heck,
yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to
find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair
of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting
replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly!
NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very
strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them
with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely
you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) difficult for
the next person who comes along and has to fix the
machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that
people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often,
but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section.
That was exactly the reason (and the reason for using tamperproof Torx in
the PSU). Customers were only supposed to have normal tools, Failed
Servoids hat the Bristol spline tools as well (but couldn't therefore
open the PSU case).
According to one manual I've got, if an IBM service engineer saw that the
tamperproof torx screws on the PSU had been replaced with normal screws,
or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g.
removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer
was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!).
That
requirement's gone now; if someone owns one of these beasts these
days then they're presumably just as likely to be inside the display
section to fix stuff as they are digging around in the rest of the
innards; doesn't it make sense to use the same type of screw throughout?
My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. This
doesn't mean not repairing a machine, it doesn't mean not using modern
components for replacements. But it does IMHO mean not replacing
components unnecessarily. In particular, I always replace the minimum
number of parts (e.g. a chip and not the complete PCB), and not replacing
screws with different types.
I have a set of Bristol spline keys, so I don't really worry about this.
I also have Torx, Allen hex, System Zero, and so on... I've found just
about all of them necessary for classic computer repairs. I would have hoped a museumwould also want to keep
machines as original
as possible, but then again my views on Bletchley Park are well known...
Fair point there, you want it to be as original as possible
If the
bristol-type screws were used externally or in a prominent
position, or exclusively throughout the machine I think I'd agree with
you, but the requirement to have a special tool to get to the display
circuitry is long gone.
Well, I don't think a Bristol Spline key is any more special than, say, a
Torx driver... Having said all
that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes
to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc.
What have you got?
everywhere even
if it's somewhere that can't be seen - but then it
doesn't use oddball fastenings that not many people have the right tool
for :-)
Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them,
and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth
spanners and sockets any more.
5:03 p.m.
That is not an
excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter=20
Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol=20
Spline drivers) should have a set.=20
Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? or had been
moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g.=20
removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer=20
was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!=
).
=20
This is still the case for a lot of "no user serviceable parts inside"=20
bits from IBM. Billable call, and then some... 350 quid plus vat and=20
parts, or thereabouts. Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as
you when it comes
to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc.
=20
=20
What have you got?
=20 and not that
many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth=20
spanners and sockets any more.
Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro=EBns I work on, all metric (but lot= s=20
of 7mm and 11mm bolts).
11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and
which Citroen seem to use to excess...
-tony
29 May
29 May
12:55 a.m.
On 29 May, 2005, at 02:03, Tony Duell wrote:
Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...). I think of
them as :
Allen : Triangular wave rapped round a circle
Torx : Sine wave rapped round a circle
Bristol : Square wave wrapped round a circle
Very approximate, of course (and certainly not enough to machine a tool
to fit them), but it gives the right idea.
http://www.mgs4u.com/bristol-wrench-spline.htm
And at 15 USD for a holder with one bit, I would not say the price is
unreasonable for a quality tool. About the same as I paid for a cheap
Chinese set of some 100 bits of useable bot not great bits.
...
That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or
for that
matter=20
Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing
Bristol=20
Spline drivers) should have a set.=20
Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft?
11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and
which Citroen seem to use to excess...
12mm is one of the common sizes around here.
I never had any problem with tools for any of my Citro?ns, except that
I had to get the socket for the central nut which holds the fan to the
shaft on the GS from a heavy equipment store. If you have the original
service manuals, you will see that they include instructions on how to
make a number of useful special tools. I have heard that their
apprentice mechanics had toolmaking as an important part of the
training.
--
-bv
10:01 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...). I think of
them as :
Allen : Triangular wave rapped round a circle
Torx : Sine wave rapped round a circle
Bristol : Square wave wrapped round a circle
Very approximate, of course (and certainly not enough to machine a tool
to fit them), but it gives the right idea.
I'd say the torx ones were more like a half-wave rectified sine wave,
really - flat at the tips
The comment on the PSU applied even if the service call was totally
unrelated to PSU problems, If an engineer came to, say, install some RAM
chips, he was supposed to check the PSU screws (and some other things)
and replace the PSU if necessary.
This was, apparently, for safety reasons. IF the PSU had been opened,
there was no way to know if any nasty bodges had been done internally...
(FWIW, I've opened IBM PSUs, I've repaired them, IMHO, properly and
safely, and I've put the tamperproof Torx screws back in again...)
There was a repair to a PSU which involved snipping a resistor off the
board. It was a ten second job, but needed to be done in the workshop
for insurance reasons. Oh, and so that the serial numbers all matched,
it meant taking the PSU away, doing the mod, and bringing it back the
next day... all for the sake of a bean-counter's ego, I shouldn't wonder.
Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work, and reliably. If I=20
can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I=20
always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless=20
Well, my Father's Citroen BX (touch wood...) has hard very few hydraulic
problems. I've had to replace just one high pressure pipe (to the back
brakes), which was damaged by an idiot garage mechanic when he refitted
the rear subframe after an accident repair.
Easy enough. You just need the funny pipe tool. You do know that you
do the brake and suspension pipe nuts not much more than finger tight?
Too much and you deform the rubber seal, and it leaks. Of course, this
means that those not in the know horse the nuts up even tighter to seal
it...
They're good cars, but they're starting to get expensive to buy unless
they're utter sheds. The early Xantias are starting to hit the "buy for
hundred quid and spend that much again on the suspension" end of the
market these days
So do I, but then I have a Myford lathe, which is assembled with an
interesting mix of BSW, BA, and metric bolts...
Argh.
Hm, not run across many, with the notable exception of the hydraulic
bleeder on the regulator. They do, however, love their Torx screws for
interior fittings, on the newer ones.
Gordon
That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or
for that matter=20
Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol=20
Spline drivers) should have a set.=20
Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get
them out (e.g.=20
removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer=20
was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!=
).
=20
This is still the case for a lot of "no user serviceable parts inside"=20
bits from IBM. Billable call, and then some... 350 quid plus vat and=20
parts, or thereabouts. Having said all
that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes
to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc.
=20
=20
What have you got?
=20 and not that many people have a reasonably complete set
of Whitworth=20
spanners and sockets any more.
Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro=EBns I work on, all metric (but lot= s=20
of 7mm and 11mm bolts).
11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and
which Citroen seem to use to excess...
30 May
30 May
12:17 p.m.
Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work,
and reliably. If I=20
can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I=20
always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless=20
Well, my Father's Citroen BX (touch wood...) has hard very few hydraulic
problems. I've had to replace just one high pressure pipe (to the back
brakes), which was damaged by an idiot garage mechanic when he refitted
the rear subframe after an accident repair. Too much and you deform the rubber seal, and it leaks.
Of course, this
means that those not in the know horse the nuts up even tighter to seal
it...
Hm, not run across many, with the notable exception of the hydraulic
bleeder on the regulator. They do, however, love their Torx screws for
I've found them elsewhere too.
of 7mm and
11mm bolts).
11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and
which Citroen seem to use to excess... interior fittings, on the newer ones.
All over the place, actually. When I rebuilt the steering rack, the
operating culinder was held at one end by a special Torx-headed bolt.
When I replaced the clutch, I was supprised that the pressure plate
assembly was held to the flywheel with Torx-headed bolts, And so on. You
_need_ a set of torx drivers for working on such cars.
-tony
31 May
31 May
6:54 a.m.
At 07:03 PM 5/28/2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes, that's where I've seen it before.
This thread also made me look up "Whitford bolt" and "Kunifer".
- John
Are they the
ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft?
Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...).
29 May
29 May
4 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth
bolts all over them,
and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth
spanners and sockets any more.
Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro?ns I work on, all metric (but lots
of 7mm and 11mm bolts).
"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification.
Back when I was actively working on cars, I considered "reasonably
complete" spanners and sockets to consist of:
[RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best)
thin (sheet metal) open end wrenches (lock nuts, bearing adjustment, etc)
short box-end wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
long box-end wrenches (mostly just 6 point)
Flex-socket wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets)
1/4 inch thin wall 6 point sockets
1/4 inch thin wall 12 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 6 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 12 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 12 point flank drive sockets (SNAP-ON)
3/8 inch thin wall deep sockets in 6 and 12 point
3/8 inch impact 6 point sockets
3/8 inch 8 point sockets
1/2 inch thin wall 6 and 12 point regular and deep sockets
1/2 inch impact sockets
1/2 inch 8 point sockets
3/4 inch impact sockets
1 inch impact sockets (only a few sizes, such as 36 and 46 mm)
Vise-grips 5WR
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5:28 p.m.
New subject: Tools
That's what I'd consider a reasonably complete set of tools too.
Now would someone go tell that to the Ford engineers..
The Ford modular 4.6L v8 DOHC as used in the 1995 Lincoln Continental
(FWD btw). Most horrifically designed $%^$% I've _EVER_ had to work on.
(Definitely not "classic")
You want to replace head gaskets, and a busted valve spring, to do it by
the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+ specialized tools, and you get
to remove the engine+transmission through the bottom.
I have to wonder if the engineers who design these cars actually have
ever had to work on one..
<expletives deleted>
David
Fred Cisin wrote:
Well, British
classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them,
and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth
spanners and sockets any more.
Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro?ns I work on, all metric (but lots
of 7mm and 11mm bolts).
"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification.
Back when I was actively working on cars, I considered "reasonably
complete" spanners and sockets to consist of:
[RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best)
thin (sheet metal) open end wrenches (lock nuts, bearing adjustment, etc)
short box-end wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
long box-end wrenches (mostly just 6 point)
Flex-socket wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets)
1/4 inch thin wall 6 point sockets
1/4 inch thin wall 12 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 6 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 12 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 12 point flank drive sockets (SNAP-ON)
3/8 inch thin wall deep sockets in 6 and 12 point
3/8 inch impact 6 point sockets
3/8 inch 8 point sockets
1/2 inch thin wall 6 and 12 point regular and deep sockets
1/2 inch impact sockets
1/2 inch 8 point sockets
3/4 inch impact sockets
1 inch impact sockets (only a few sizes, such as 36 and 46 mm)
Vise-grips 5WR
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
31 May
31 May
6:54 a.m.
New subject: Tools
>>>> "David" == David Holland
<dholland at woh.rr.com> writes:
David> That's what I'd consider a reasonably complete set of tools
David> too. Now would someone go tell that to the Ford engineers..
David> The Ford modular 4.6L v8 DOHC as used in the 1995 Lincoln
David> Continental (FWD btw). Most horrifically designed $%^$% I've
David> _EVER_ had to work on. (Definitely not "classic")
David> You want to replace head gaskets, and a busted valve spring,
David> to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+
David> specialized tools, and you get to remove the
David> engine+transmission through the bottom.
That doesn't seem unusual anymore. We had a Saab 9000 in which timing
belt replacement involves first removing the front right wheel, to
remove an access panel in the wheelwell.
paul
3:14 p.m.
New subject: Tools
Paul Koning wrote:
David> You want to replace head gaskets, and a
busted valve spring,
David> to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+
David> specialized tools, and you get to remove the
David> engine+transmission through the bottom.
That doesn't seem unusual anymore. We had a Saab 9000 in which timing
belt replacement involves first removing the front right wheel, to
remove an access panel in the wheelwell.
That's how you do the timing belts in most transverse-engined cars. You
won't get at the bottom pulley otherwise, and you need to make sure the
timing marks are correctly aligned.
Gordon.
4:11 p.m.
New subject: Tools
From: "Gordon JC Pearce" <gordon at gjcp.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:14 PM
Paul Koning wrote:
All you have to do is remove the number one spark-plug and insert a plastic
straw, when you turn the crank-shaft you can easily tell when you are at
TDC.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
David> You want to replace head gaskets, and
a busted valve spring,
David> to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+
David> specialized tools, and you get to remove the
David> engine+transmission through the bottom.
That doesn't seem unusual anymore. We had a Saab 9000 in which timing
belt replacement involves first removing the front right wheel, to
remove an access panel in the wheelwell.
That's how you do the timing belts in most transverse-engined cars. You
won't get at the bottom pulley otherwise, and you need to make sure the
timing marks are correctly aligned.
Gordon.
1 Jun
1 Jun
4:38 p.m.
New subject: Tools
> That's how you do the timing belts in most
transverse-engined cars. You
> won't get at the bottom pulley otherwise, and you need to make sure the
> timing marks are correctly aligned.
All you have to do is remove the number one spark-plug
and insert a plastic
straw, when you turn the crank-shaft you can easily tell when you are at
TDC.
The Citroen BX Diesel (XUD engine) is even easier. Turn the engine to the
timing position and put 1 M8 bolt through a hole in the camshaft sprocket
(it screws into the cylinder head) and 2 through holes in the injection
pump sprocket (they screw into the block IIRC). Put a timing pin (an
Allen key will do) into the hole behind the starter motor so that it
slips into the hole in the flywheel. Remove the belt, fit a new one,
remove the pin and bolts, turn the engine 2 full turns by hand, then
check you can fit the bolts and pin back again. If so, it's correctly timed.
-tony
30 May
30 May
12:05 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective
quantification.
I would agree...
Back when I was actively working on cars, I considered
"reasonably
complete" spanners and sockets to consist of:
[RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best)
I like the Facom combination spanners (ring (==box-end?) at one end, and
a hooked open end at the other). They're effectively self-ratcheting and
save a lot of time when working in a confined space.
Don't be afraid to use 2 different tools to tighten (or loosen) a nut.
E.g. a Facom open-end to get it fairly tight, then a ring spanner to get
it fully done. The former is a lot better than a flat-at-a-time with a
ring spanner :-)
Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
I've never found much use for those. The ends are so large they won't
fit into the sort of space whrre a ratchet spanner would be useful.
Facom (again) do some lovely spanners that are effectively ratchet rings
that you can open to fit round a pipe, then clamp onto the union nut to
loosen/tighten it. The only problem is that they are _very_ expensive.
"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S
shapes, and with odd offsets)
Very useful...
Also : Those ring spanners with a gap in the ring to fit pipe unions
(much nicer than using open-end spanners).
Similar, but with a flange over one side of the fing so you can force the
union nut in place. If you've ever tried to re-fit a Citroen hydraulic
union in a confined space you'll know why I have a set :-)
1/4 inch thin wall 6 point sockets
1/4 inch thin wall 12 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 6 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 12 point sockets
3/8 inch thin wall 12 point flank drive sockets (SNAP-ON)
3/8 inch thin wall deep sockets in 6 and 12 point
3/8 inch impact 6 point sockets
3/8 inch 8 point sockets
I've never needed the 3/8" drive sockets. Where I need more torque than
can be applied with a1/4" drive, there's enough room for a 1/2" socket.
On the other hand, a 3/8" drive (or adapter) is essential, many timing
belt tensioners have a 3/8" hole in the plate which you use to untension
or tension them.
1/2 inch thin wall 6 and 12 point regular and deep
sockets
1/2 inch impact sockets
1/2 inch 8 point sockets
3/4 inch impact sockets
1 inch impact sockets (only a few sizes, such as 36 and 46 mm)
I've never nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest
torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I
guess that's strong enough :-)
Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but
I had to dash out and get an open-end spanner in that size to get the
back panel off an HP9810 calculator. There are 2 nuts on T-bolts going
into the side panels that you have to undo, and that's the only tool that
will do it. Fortunately the local (good) tool shop had one in stock, but
it wasn't exactly cheap... (but then again, I never mind spending money
on good tools).
Vise-grips 5WR
I wonder what's considered to be a reasonable hand toolkit (i.e. not
including test gear, soldering tools, etc) for classic computer repair.
My starting list would be :
Flat blade screwdrives from 0.8mm to 8mm tip width (at least
Phillips from size 000 to 2
Pozidrive from size 0 to 2
Torx drivers T6 to T30 (prefereably both L-shapered and handled ones.
There are some ball-ended Torx which are very useful if access is difficult)
Tamperproof Torx from T10 to T30
Allen hex from 0.05" to 3/8" and 1.27mm to 8mm
Ball-eneded Allen hex of roughly the same sizes
Socket-set adapter + 'insert bits' for Allen and Torx are very useful if
you need to use a torque wrench or similar.
Nutdrivers and/or sockets from 1/8" to 1/2" and 3mm to 12mm
Bristol spline keys :-)
Small precsion pliers for wire-bending, etc
Larger long-nose pliers
Normal pliers
Small slip-joint pliers (CK made/make a lovely pair about 4" long...)
Side cutters, end cuters in at least 2 sizes of each (for PCB work and
larger wiring)
Tweezers. At least 2 pairs of non-magnetic ones.
Many of the other tools in my toolbox are not really for computer repair
-- things like a Jaxa watch case tool (but it fits the HP01...), a camera
lens spanner wrench, valve remover/pin straightener. etc...
-tony
2:11 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
Flat blade screwdrives from 0.8mm to 8mm tip width (at least
Phillips from size 000 to 2
Pozidrive from size 0 to 2
Torx drivers T6 to T30 (prefereably both L-shapered and handled ones.
There are some ball-ended Torx which are very useful if access is difficult)
Tamperproof Torx from T10 to T30
Allen hex from 0.05" to 3/8" and 1.27mm to 8mm
Ball-eneded Allen hex of roughly the same sizes
Socket-set adapter + 'insert bits' for Allen and Torx are very useful if
you need to use a torque wrench or similar.
Nutdrivers and/or sockets from 1/8" to 1/2" and 3mm to 12mm
Bristol spline keys :-)
Small precsion pliers for wire-bending, etc
Larger long-nose pliers
Normal pliers
Small slip-joint pliers (CK made/make a lovely pair about 4" long...)
Side cutters, end cuters in at least 2 sizes of each (for PCB work and
larger wiring)
Tweezers. At least 2 pairs of non-magnetic ones.
Many of the other tools in my toolbox are not really for computer repair
-- things like a Jaxa watch case tool (but it fits the HP01...), a camera
lens spanner wrench, valve remover/pin straightener. etc...
-tony
Very similar to my computer/camera tool kit. I would add my torque
limiting bit drive handles to set things to the proper torque when using
screw bits- most of mine are Sturtevant-Richmont, but I also have a
couple of the exact same driver handles private labeled by Klein
Tools. The one on my desk today has a range on 0.2 to 4 nm (2-38
in/lbs). Pretty handy to keep from overtorquing and stripping threads.
I would also add a complete assortment of tamper-proof bits such as the
three armed phillips, pentagon allen, spanner tipped bits; a set of
Panavise bases and heads; and an illuminated magnifier which has become
almost a necessity after I turned 50. I do keep a set of 1/4, 3/8 and
1/2 drive sockets, open and closed end wrenches and a range of drive
handles and extensions with the computer tools. They come in handy to
assemble racks and I've actually needed a large wrench to remove large
heat sinks from big SCR's before.
I don't have the Bristol spline keys but I suppose I will at one time in
the future, so I should go ahead and get a set. I have a varnished
wooden machinist chest in the house for my computer/camera tools. The
car tools are kept in the garage in a large roller box.
3:13 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Mon, 30 May 2005, James Rice wrote:
My medicine cabinet contains (from memory):
(1) bottle aftershave
(2) dental mirrors
(3) dental floss
(4) toothbrush (currently being used)
(5) toothbrush (new)
(6) various colognes
(7) razor bits
What does this have to do with anything? Nothing.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Flat blade screwdrives from 0.8mm to 8mm tip width (at least
Phillips from size 000 to 2
Pozidrive from size 0 to 2
Torx drivers T6 to T30 (prefereably both L-shapered and handled ones.
There are some ball-ended Torx which are very useful if access is difficult)
Tamperproof Torx from T10 to T30
Allen hex from 0.05" to 3/8" and 1.27mm to 8mm
Ball-eneded Allen hex of roughly the same sizes
Socket-set adapter + 'insert bits' for Allen and Torx are very useful if
you need to use a torque wrench or similar.
Nutdrivers and/or sockets from 1/8" to 1/2" and 3mm to 12mm
Bristol spline keys :-)
Small precsion pliers for wire-bending, etc
Larger long-nose pliers
Normal pliers
Small slip-joint pliers (CK made/make a lovely pair about 4" long...)
Side cutters, end cuters in at least 2 sizes of each (for PCB work and
larger wiring)
Tweezers. At least 2 pairs of non-magnetic ones.
Many of the other tools in my toolbox are not really for computer repair
-- things like a Jaxa watch case tool (but it fits the HP01...), a camera
lens spanner wrench, valve remover/pin straightener. etc...
-tony
Very similar to my computer/camera tool kit. I would add my torque
limiting bit drive handles to set things to the proper torque when using
screw bits- most of mine are Sturtevant-Richmont, but I also have a
couple of the exact same driver handles private labeled by Klein
Tools. The one on my desk today has a range on 0.2 to 4 nm (2-38
in/lbs). Pretty handy to keep from overtorquing and stripping threads.
I would also add a complete assortment of tamper-proof bits such as the
three armed phillips, pentagon allen, spanner tipped bits; a set of
Panavise bases and heads; and an illuminated magnifier which has become
almost a necessity after I turned 50. I do keep a set of 1/4, 3/8 and
1/2 drive sockets, open and closed end wrenches and a range of drive
handles and extensions with the computer tools. They come in handy to
assemble racks and I've actually needed a large wrench to remove large
heat sinks from big SCR's before.
I don't have the Bristol spline keys but I suppose I will at one time in
the future, so I should go ahead and get a set. I have a varnished
wooden machinist chest in the house for my computer/camera tools. The
car tools are kept in the garage in a large roller box. 
3:50 p.m.
New subject: Olivetti M-20 PCOS or other OS
Hello. I own one Olivetti M-20 that I'm cleaning and checking. All appears
to go well but the diskette with the PCOS system is damaged. Someone dispose
of one operative copy of PCOS or another OS for this machine ? I would be
agreed for the eternity (uh... perhaps less time, but a lot sure).
Thanks
Sergio
3:51 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
[List of useful things for classic computer reapir deleted]
My medicine cabinet contains (from memory):
[List of things that have no use in classic computer repair deleted]
What does this have to do with anything? Nothing.
Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing.
toiletries don't.
-tony
31 May
31 May
7:27 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
At 06:38 PM 5/30/2005, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote:
Caveman! My dentist gave me his old intra-oral camera system, so now
I have an illuminated NTSC camera I can stick into small crevices.
I also love my Zeiss stereo surgical scope for fine detail work,
with the nice counter-balanced multi-jointed arm and stand.
At 07:45 PM 5/30/2005, r.stricklin wrote:
toiletries
don't
Those dental mirrors come in real handy for lots of mechanical jobs.
And I've put some floss to a few creative uses, too :-) Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and
a band-aid.
Computer repair will not succeed without blood sacrifice!
Bactine? What, we have to use classic healthcare when our
classic computers make us bleed? Get some fresh triple antibiotic!
- John
30 May
30 May
5:17 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
[List of useful things for classic computer reapir
deleted]
My basic hygiene disagrees with you.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
My medicine cabinet contains (from memory):
[List of things that have no use in classic computer repair deleted]
What does this have to do with anything?
Nothing.
Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing.
toiletries don't.
31 May
31 May
2:56 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
Err, the tools
actually do have some relevance to classic computing.
toiletries don't.
My basic hygiene disagrees with you.
4:30 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I didn't say that personal hygiene wasn't important, only that it has
nothing to do with classic computing.
Right, and niether do your silly discussions about mechanics tools and car
repair (notwithstanding the painfully contrived "relevance" you tried to
assign them).
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to
classic computing.
toiletries don't.
My basic hygiene disagrees with you. 
30 May
30 May
5:45 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On May 30, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to
classic computing.
toiletries don't.
Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and a band-aid.
Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us
this shaky rationalization.
ok
bear
31 May
31 May
12:43 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
r.stricklin wrote:
Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and
a band-aid.
Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us
this shaky rationalization.
ok
bear
Oooh, I don't know, the oldest XMs are 16 years old and have a hell of a
lot of computers in them. Just the place for a 68HCxx enthusiast to go
and play... ;-)
Gordon.
1 Jun
1 Jun
12:54 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On 31 May, 2005, at 09:43, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
r.stricklin wrote:
Actually, I have always been fascinated by the analog computers in old
cars. My CX Turbo has a few of them, but I never dared touch the
things.
--
-bv
Until you bark your knuckles and need some
bactine and a band-aid.
Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us
this shaky rationalization.
ok
bear
Oooh, I don't know, the oldest XMs are 16 years old and have a hell of
a lot of computers in them. Just the place for a 68HCxx enthusiast to
go and play... ;-) 
2 Jun
2 Jun
7:39 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On 31 May, 2005, at 09:43, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Oooh, I have. The heater temperature flap controller (big power op-amp
driving the servo, one half tends to fail), for one. Oh, and I believe
the ABS controller is analogue...
Gordon.
r.stricklin wrote:
Actually, I have always been fascinated by the analog computers in old
cars. My CX Turbo has a few of them, but I never dared touch the
things. Until you bark your knuckles and need some
bactine and a band-aid.
Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us
this shaky rationalization.
ok
bear
Oooh, I don't know, the oldest XMs are 16 years old and have a hell of
a lot of computers in them. Just the place for a 68HCxx enthusiast to
go and play... ;-)
31 May
31 May
2:57 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On May 30, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing.
> toiletries don't.
[...]
Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just
please don't give us
this shaky rationalization.
The list of tools in question was actually those I was recomending for
classic computer repair (as a starting point for a toolkit).
-tony
7:23 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
At 05:13 PM 5/30/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
My medicine cabinet contains (from memory):
[...]
What does this have to do with anything? Nothing.
Obviously it means you don't have a decent set of spares for
all those bathroom tools.
Me, I'm just trying to figure out why I have seven of the
screwdrivers I don't want at the moment and why I can't find
the one I want. Or how many full sets of tools I should
really own for home / office / car.
- John
1:05 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
Me, I'm just trying to figure out why I have seven
of the
screwdrivers I don't want at the moment and why I can't find
the one I want. Or how many full sets of tools I should
really own for home / office / car.
- John
I just went into my toolbox for a pair of plyers - and they were lying on
top !!!!
Normally when I want something it's right at the bottom.
The laws of physics are unravelling....
The world's going to end - we're all doomed , doomed......
3:28 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
the one I want. Or how many full sets of tools I
should
really own for home / office / car.
I learnt years ago the benefits of a toolkit upstairs, to save going down
and up again when I need to tighten a door handle, or something :-)
I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen
keys) upstairs, my full computer-repair kit downstairs, and the car
repair tools in the garage. There's some overlap between the last 2, but
if I'm say, rebuilding a teleprinter motor I will hapily go out to the
garage to get the 3-legged puller and a spanner to fit it. I don't
duplicate those in the computer toolkit.
-tony
6:15 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips,
Pozidriv, Torx, Allen
keys) upstairs, [...]
Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned
elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is
no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me to wonder, what
is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I
don't know but which is common in circles I've never moved in, or
perhaps I misread the references and it's not actually that common.)
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
7:37 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
From: "der Mouse" <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:15 PM
http://www.bitsnbores.com/images/Mi0648.jpg
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
I have a
minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen
keys) upstairs, [...]
Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned
elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is
no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me to wonder, what
is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I
don't know but which is common in circles I've never moved in, or
perhaps I misread the references and it's not actually that common.)
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1 Jun
1 Jun
7:43 a.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
>>>> "der" == der Mouse <mouse
at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> writes:
> I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips,
Pozidriv, Torx,
> Allen keys) upstairs, [...]
der> Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive
der> mentioned elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type.
der> Since there is no screw drive type I know by that name, this
der> leads me to wonder, what is it?
I believe it is common in Europe, not common in North America. (I
have seen it in my Chevy Blazer, though.) You might find it in screws
that come with the fancy hinges you'll find in some nice furniture.
Look for a screw that looks like a Phillips screw with additional
narrow grooves at 45 degree angles to the main slots.
A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the
proper bit will hold a great deal better and is well worth having.
They shouldn't be hard to find; all the tech tool catalogs I've seen
(like Jensen and Contact East) have them; so does SnapOn.
paul
4:44 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
At 10:43 AM 6/1/05 -0400, you wrote:
You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a whole
set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a fraction of what SnapOn
or the TechTool suppliers will charge you for a single bit.
Joe
>>>> "der" == der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca>
writes:
> I have a minimal tookit (flat blade,
Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx,
> Allen keys) upstairs, [...]
der> Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive
der> mentioned elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type.
der> Since there is no screw drive type I know by that name, this
der> leads me to wonder, what is it?
I believe it is common in Europe, not common in North America. (I
have seen it in my Chevy Blazer, though.) You might find it in screws
that come with the fancy hinges you'll find in some nice furniture.
Look for a screw that looks like a Phillips screw with additional
narrow grooves at 45 degree angles to the main slots.
A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the
proper bit will hold a great deal better and is well worth having.
They shouldn't be hard to find; all the tech tool catalogs I've seen
(like Jensen and Contact East) have them; so does SnapOn.
paul
5:08 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts,
you can buy a whole
set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a fraction of what SnapOn
or the TechTool suppliers will charge you for a single bit.
There's probably a good reason for that. My experience is that the cheap
bits wear out quickly, they mangle the screwheads, etc.
It is said 'The bad workman blames his tools' I've always though the
reason for that is that the good workman has bought decent tools...
-tony
(I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools)
2 Jun
2 Jun
2:59 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools
Half the time, cheap tools don't work well when they're new, either.
Exactly. Several times I've tried to repair something for somebody using
their toolkit and have stopped halfway through to go back and get my
tools. Not becuase they don't have the right tool, but becasue their
tools are such poor quality that I will do damage to the device I am
repairing if I try to use them.
-tony
3 Jun
3 Jun
6:42 a.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell <ard
at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Half the time, cheap tools don't work well
when they're new,
> either.
Tony> Exactly. Several times I've tried to repair something for
Tony> somebody using their toolkit and have stopped halfway through
Tony> to go back and get my tools. Not becuase they don't have the
Tony> right tool, but becasue their tools are such poor quality that
Tony> I will do damage to the device I am repairing if I try to use
Tony> them.
Case in point: conventional flat screwdrivers, which have a wedge
shape. It's hard to find anything else, but well worth the trouble;
the conventional kind WILL destroy your screws.
I no longer mind working with slotted screws ever since I inherited a
gunsmith screwdriver set. Those are vastly superior -- they come in a
lot more sizes so you can find a good fit, and the tip is
hollow-ground so the faces are parallel, not in a V shape. So the
screwdriver doesn't "cam out" as the hardware store type does.
paul
10:42 a.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools
Hi,
Paul Koning said:
Case in point: conventional flat screwdrivers, which
have a wedge
shape. It's hard to find anything else, but well worth the trouble;
the conventional kind WILL destroy your screws.
I no longer mind working with slotted screws ever since I inherited a
gunsmith screwdriver set. Those are vastly superior -- they come in a
lot more sizes so you can find a good fit, and the tip is
hollow-ground so the faces are parallel, not in a V shape. So the
screwdriver doesn't "cam out" as the hardware store type does.
I have a Brownells (well known supplier of gunsmiths tools) set of
handle and replaceable bits. Excellent quality and properly shaped
tips, well worth the money.
(They're left over from the days when I used to punch paper...)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
2 Jun
2 Jun
11:34 a.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
>>>> "Joe" == Joe R <rigdonj
at cfl.rr.com> writes:
Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a
Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a
Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge
Joe> you for a single bit.
Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit
and doesn't stand up to use.
I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of
pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in
the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at
least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on...
Fortunately, the seller honored his money-back guarantee.
That's not to say I now buy my drill bits from SnapOn. But it does
mean that I avoid Harbor Freight and all their clones for stuff like
this.
paul
2:38 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
At 02:34 PM 6/2/05 -0400, you wrote:
I agree that you need to see the stuff before you buy it. But I bought
my cheapo set of bits about 1 1/2 years ago and they've held up fine. I
wouldn't expect them to last of an assembly line or some such where they're
used 8 hours/day but for occasional use they're ok. As far as fit is
concerned, I've found that many expensive tools don't fit either! I had to
carry a HP ThinkJet to a half a dozen stores to find a torx screwdriver
that fit. I finally found a cheapish brand-x tool at one of the hardware
stores that fit. None of the tools from Sears and the like would fit!
Joe
>>>> "Joe" == Joe R <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com> writes:
Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a
Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a
Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge
Joe> you for a single bit.
Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit
and doesn't stand up to use.
I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of
pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in
the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at
least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on...
Fortunately, the seller honored his money-back guarantee.
That's not to say I now buy my drill bits from SnapOn. But it does
mean that I avoid Harbor Freight and all their clones for stuff like
this.
paul
2:48 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
>>>> "Joe" == Joe R <rigdonj
at cfl.rr.com> writes:
Joe> .... As far as fit is concerned, I've found that many
Joe> expensive tools don't fit either! I had to carry a HP ThinkJet
Joe> to a half a dozen stores to find a torx screwdriver that fit. I
Joe> finally found a cheapish brand-x tool at one of the hardware
Joe> stores that fit. None of the tools from Sears and the like would
Joe> fit!
Sounds like a non-standard pseudo-Torx, perhaps a Japanese imitation?
paul
4:02 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
I agree that you need to see the stuff before you
buy it. But I bought
my cheapo set of bits about 1 1/2 years ago and they've held up fine. I
You have been very lucky. I am not prepared to take that risk.
wouldn't expect them to last of an assembly line
or some such where they're
used 8 hours/day but for occasional use they're ok. As far as fit is
concerned, I've found that many expensive tools don't fit either! I had to
carry a HP ThinkJet to a half a dozen stores to find a torx screwdriver
that fit. I finally found a cheapish brand-x tool at one of the hardware
stores that fit. None of the tools from Sears and the like would fit!
Odd. I've taken plenty of Thinkjets (and 9114 drives, which use the same
screws) apart and had no problem getting tools that fit. IIRC, though, HP
used some odd-size screws in these machines, with TX9 heads. Some
manufactuers make their Torx drives on the small side, so you may have
found a TX10 from said manufactuer fitted, but 'real' TX10 drivers don't.
A good TX9 driver will work, though.
-tony
4:54 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words:
Odd. I've taken plenty of Thinkjets (and 9114
drives, which use the same
screws) apart and had no problem getting tools that fit. IIRC, though, HP
used some odd-size screws in these machines, with TX9 heads. Some
manufactuers make their Torx drives on the small side, so you may have
found a TX10 from said manufactuer fitted, but 'real' TX10 drivers don't.
A good TX9 driver will work, though.
That was my thought, too. I've seen good sets that have TX6, 7, 8, 9, 10,
15 and up, and I think there's such a thing as a TX12, tho I've never seen
one in captivity. ;-)
I've seen modern hard drives use both TX6 and 8.
Also, if one has a very good set of both SAE and Metric (hex|Allen) keys,
you can often find a key that will fit the center of TX10 & 15 screws well
enough to install/remove them in a pinch; I don't recommend making a habit
of it (read: don't think you're covered toolwise without a good Torx set
nowadays) but if you have no other choice, it can be made to work. It's
like I always say: If it's stupid but works, it ain't stupid. ;-)
Laterz,
"Merch"
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together."
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson
zmerch at 30below.com |
1:36 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fa
Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these
words:
That was my thought, too. I've seen good sets that have TX6, 7, 8, 9, 10,
15 and up, and I think there's such a thing as a TX12, tho I've never seen
one in captivity. ;-)
I've seen modern hard drives use both TX6 and 8.
"Merch"
T1 torx exists. Take the IBM thinkpad 701 series thinkpad
(butterfly) and look at four tiny screws across the front of bottom
casing. That's T1. I have known of T5 and T4.
How I know? I own two 701C one for parts, one working and ordered
parts for 701 and 710 via their local servicer authorized shop.
Cheers, Wizard
3 Jun
3 Jun
3:52 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fa
That was my
thought, too. I've seen good sets that have TX6, 7, 8, 9, 10,
15 and up, and I think there's such a thing as a TX12, tho I've never seen
one in captivity. ;-)
I've seen modern hard drives use both TX6 and 8.
"Merch"
T1 torx exists. Take the IBM thinkpad 701 series thinkpad
2 Jun
2 Jun
3:54 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
>>>> "Joe" == Joe R
<rigdonj at cfl.rr.com> writes:
Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a
Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a
Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge
Joe> you for a single bit.
Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit
and doesn't stand up to use.
I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of
pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in
the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at
least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on...
One major problem I've found with cheap twist drills is that the 'point'
is not quite central. This means they wobble slightly as they drill and
make an oversize hole. This won't matter for the average home electric
drill (which has more play in the bearings anyway), it certainly matters
if you use them on a machine tool.
I once wasted a couple of hours because after making a part (a roller for
an HP9100 card reader), I drilled the central hole with what I thought
was a 1/8" drill and then found it was a very loose fit on the 1/8"
(measured) motor spindle. Too loose to grip on the knurled part. I had to
make the roller again and go and buy a good-quality 1/8" bit. No problem
then.
I can't remmeber how much that tqist drill cost me, but it was a lot less
than 2 hours of my time at any sane rate.
-tony
1 Jun
1 Jun
4:12 p.m.
New subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]
I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips,
Pozidriv, Torx, Allen
keys) upstairs, [...]
Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned
elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me
to wonder, what
is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I
It's a crosspoint screwdriver, similar to a Phillips, but with a blunter
tip angle, and officially little ridges between the main cross bits. The
screw head has a starburst-like hole in it.
If you try to turn a Pozidriv screw with a Phillips screwdriver or vice
versa, you are very likely to damage the screwhead and possibly the
screwdriver as well. That's why I keep both it my toolkit.
-tony
30 May
30 May
3:49 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
Very similar to my computer/camera tool kit. I would
add my torque
Ah, another person who fiddles with cameras ...
limiting bit drive handles to set things to the proper
torque when using
screw bits- most of mine are Sturtevant-Richmont, but I also have a
couple of the exact same driver handles private labeled by Klein
Tools. The one on my desk today has a range on 0.2 to 4 nm (2-38
in/lbs). Pretty handy to keep from overtorquing and stripping threads.
I have a small 'Britool' torque wrench (1/4" square drive) which gets
used with an adaoter and 1/4" hex insert bit for things like RK05 head
clamp screws.
I can't remember the last time I stripped a thread by overtightening it,
and for most things I don't use a torque wrench. But if the manufacturer
has bothered to specify a torque value, I am going to do the job
properly.
I would also add a complete assortment of tamper-proof
bits such as the
three armed phillips, pentagon allen, spanner tipped bits; a set of
Yes, I forgot those. I have a reasonable set. And as I mentioned in
another message, System Zero tools (which do get used on classic computers).
And a set of taps and dies in the common sizes. Apart from being useful
when making replacement parts/doing modifications, they're also useful
for cleaning up old threads, particularly if covered in threadlock.
And if you're a cammera hacker, you pretty much need 0.5mm and 0.75mm
thread chasers :-)
Panavise bases and heads; and an illuminated magnifier
which has become
almost a necessity after I turned 50. I do keep a set of 1/4, 3/8 and
I have never got on with any form of magnifier. The limited depth of
field drives me up the wall.
-tony
4:57 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
We hardly ever see Facom around here.
The ratcheting open ends that we can get around here tend to have too
thick a side wall to be usable.
The MAC open ends have a tolerably thin side wall, and a half hexagon
broach, instead of the half oval broach that most open-ends have.
The SNAP-ON ratcheting box-ends are the only ones with a thin enough side
wall, and fine toothed enough to ever be usable.
For example, some of the early Honda Civics did not have a removable pully
on the water pump. Two of the water pump bolts could be easily removed
with a Snap-On ratcheting 10mm, or by cycling through three different
box-ends, but no socket or open end would fit.
It helps to have a lot of different ones
"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification.
I would
agree... [RARELY used]
open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best)
I like the Facom combination
spanners (ring (==box-end?) at one end, and
a hooked open end at the other). They're effectively self-ratcheting and
save a lot of time when working in a confined space. Ratcheting box
ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON)
I've never found much use for those. The ends
are so large they won't
fit into the sort of space whrre a ratchet spanner would be useful. Facom (again) do some lovely spanners that are
effectively ratchet rings
that you can open to fit round a pipe, then clamp onto the union nut to
loosen/tighten it. The only problem is that they are _very_ expensive.
I completely left out flare-nut wrenches, crow's foot wrenches, etc.
"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets)
Very useful... I've never needed the 3/8" drive sockets.
Where I need more torque than
can be applied with a1/4" drive, there's enough room for a 1/2" socket.
On the other hand, a 3/8" drive (or adapter) is essential, many timing
belt tensioners have a 3/8" hole in the plate which you use to untension
or tension them.
I have often needed more torque than a 1/4 could handle, but not
enough
clearance for 1/2"
Around here, 3/8" is the default for auto repair; when I was in the
Washington, DC area (salted roads, etc.) 1/2" was the default.
I've never nneded anything over 3/4" drive to
work on a car. The largest
torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I
guess that's strong enough :-)
That'll do nicely for assembly.
I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs
to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet
to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends.
Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner
sets include 11/32", but
I have a number of tools that I've rarely had need
of. But once is
enough.
I wonder what's considered to be a reasonable hand
toolkit (i.e. not
including test gear, soldering tools, etc) for classic computer repair.
My starting list would be :
medical hemostats (called "roach clip"s in California)
dental mirror(s)
inspection light(s) and/or otoscope
right-angle ratcheting 1/4" bit driver
small "slim-jim", such as IBM punch card jam clearer
If others have been in it before, then add:
reachers/dropped item retrievers
5wR vise-grips for removing destroyed fasteners
taps
drill
BIG dead-blow mallet (only for use on Packard-Bell, etc.)
31 May
31 May
12:54 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
Fred Cisin wrote:
It helps to have a lot of different ones
Or lots of cheap crappy spanners that can be heated up and bent
Aha. I come from an agricultural background. 1/2" is ok for a lot of
things, but you really want to keep the 3/4" drive stuff closest.
I bought a (relatively) cheap breaker bar from Halfords (expensive car
bits chain in the UK). It's actually bloody good - a lot of their tools
they stock are made by Draper or Sykes-Pickavant, so I guess their "own
brand" stuff might be made by someone like that. It made short work of
the driveshaft nuts on my Citro?n CX, which had up to that point even
resisted the air wrench at my local tyre fitting place. The trick was
to get the wheel off, get the cap off the nut, put the wheel back on,
and have the car sitting on its wheels, with someone pressing the brakes
as hard as possible.
Cracking the cooling fan nut on my GSA (aircooled flat four up the
front) was another breaker bar job too - but because of the angle things
were at I had to get the bar on it and lift in weightlifter style. Once
I managed to stop lifting the car off the axle stands, things went well...
Dental mirrors are great. My girlfriend's Mum used to be a sales rep
for a medical company, and one of the freebies they had to ply doctors
with was sets of very, very nice highly polished stainless minor surgery
tools - scalpel handle, stitch cutters, stitch hooks and the like. Of
course, as they are, a lot of them are really only good for tieing and
cutting stitches. They are, however, a good start for a lot of little
funky custom tools for poking electronics with.
On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
>>"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification.
>
>I would agree...
"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S
shapes, and with odd offsets)
Very useful... I've never
needed the 3/8" drive sockets. Where I need more torque than
can be applied with a1/4" drive, there's enough room for a 1/2" socket.
On the other hand, a 3/8" drive (or adapter) is essential, many timing
belt tensioners have a 3/8" hole in the plate which you use to untension
or tension them.
I have often needed more torque than a 1/4 could handle, but not enough
clearance for 1/2"
Around here, 3/8" is the default for auto repair; when I was in the
Washington, DC area (salted roads, etc.) 1/2" was the default. I've never
nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest
torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I
guess that's strong enough :-)
That'll do nicely for assembly.
I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs
to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet
to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends. Don't
forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but
I have a number of tools that I've rarely had need of. But once is
enough.
I wonder what's considered to be a reasonable
hand toolkit (i.e. not
including test gear, soldering tools, etc) for classic computer repair.
My starting list would be :
medical hemostats (called "roach clip"s in California)
dental mirror(s)
inspection light(s) and/or otoscope
right-angle ratcheting 1/4" bit driver
small "slim-jim", such as IBM punch card jam clearer If others have been in it before, then add:
reachers/dropped item retrievers
5wR vise-grips for removing destroyed fasteners
taps
drill
BIG dead-blow mallet (only for use on Packard-Bell, etc.)
Angle grinder, gas axe...
Actually lock picks are often useful.
Gordon.
5:40 a.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 08:54 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Or lots of cheap crappy spanners that can be heated up
and bent
been there, done that. I have ended up making all sorts of tools for car
work - just don't think I'd be able to make a set of bristol spline
keys...
> That'll do nicely for assembly.
> I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs
> to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet
> to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends.
Ouch. Not often I've ever needed more than about 150lb/ft on a car,
exception being removing cylinder head studs that are corroded into
engine blocks. I've known 1940's machinery that's been in that sort of
state though (and heating the right bits with a gas torch has been the
only way to loosen them up)
I bought a (relatively) cheap breaker bar from
Halfords (expensive car
bits chain in the UK). It's actually bloody good - a lot of their tools
they stock are made by Draper or Sykes-Pickavant, so I guess their "own
brand" stuff might be made by someone like that.
I've found that too. A couple of the ratchets I've had from Halfords
have proved to be bomb-proof so far; I bought them in a hurry for a job
a long time ago figuring I'd get some better ones later, and they're
still going strong with no signs of wear.
Same deal with one of their 1.5 ton trolley jacks; it's had a huge
amount of use over the last 8 years or so and is only now starting to
show signs of distress.
>>Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK
spanner sets include 11/32", but
Hmm, I had to get one of those, can't even remember why now though. I
have a feeling 15/32" isn't that common either.
Dental mirrors are great.
Yep, one of those items (along with sanding blocks) that seem to be dirt
cheap from car boot sales too.
Regarding system zero screws, if they're what I think they are then I
have come across them before - think it was in an old Sun disk unit, but
I'm not certain. A decent pair of pliers with no slop in the joint makes
short work of them though.
cheers
Jules
3:24 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 08:54 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Well, if you can't make them, buy them :-)
Or lots of cheap crappy spanners that can be
heated up and bent
been there, done that. I have ended up making all sorts of tools for car
work - just don't think I'd be able to make a set of bristol spline
keys... > That'll do nicely for assembly.
> I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs
> to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet
> to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends.
Ouch. Not often I've ever needed more than about 150lb/ft on a car,
exception being removing cylinder head studs that are corroded into engine blocks. I've known 1940's machinery
that's been in that sort of
state though (and heating the right bits with a gas torch has been the
only way to loosen them up)
Yes, but you can't heat things like driveshaft nuts without ruining the
bearings, CV joints, etc.
Hmm, I had to get one of those, can't even remember why now though. I
have a feeling 15/32" isn't that common either.
Probably not, but I've not needed that one yet :-) The 11/32, as I said,
was for a specific job on the HP9810 calculator. It was also needed for
much the same job on the 9830.
Regarding system zero screws, if they're what I
think they are then I
have come across them before - think it was in an old Sun disk unit, but
I'm not certain. A decent pair of pliers with no slop in the joint makes
short work of them though.
The Ferret makes life interesting by putting the screws inside rubber
feet so you can't grab them with pliers (these are the main PCB mouting
screws, BTW, the feet are entirely inside the machine, only there to
prevent you using pliers). I suppose you could tear the feet off, but I
really would rather keep the machine original (and thus get the right
tool from RS).
-tony
2:55 p.m.
New subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
We hardly ever see Facom around here.
Fortunately the local tool shop keeps most of the range in stock...
I've never
nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest
torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I
guess that's strong enough :-)
That'll do nicely for assembly. I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed
WELL over 1000 ft lbs
to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet
to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends.
I have a good 3/4" tommy bar (what you call a breaker bar, I guess). I've
once had to put a length of spediframe on the end of that, then stand on
the end (and I am not exactly small). The bar and socket didn't mind at
all. I would never do that to a torque wrench, of course.
Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK
spanner sets include 11/32", but
I have a number of tools that I've rarely
had need of. But once is
enough. If others have been in it before, then add:
[...]
BIG dead-blow mallet (only for use on Packard-Bell,
etc.)
And to use on the luser who was there before you...
-tony
1:31 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
My view has alayws been to keep the machine as
original as possible.
I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult"
screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts
with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular.
I would at least save the screws, with a note or something.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
2:10 p.m.
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 15:31 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
On the other hand, it could be historically significant that awkward
screws were replaced during the machine's lifetime in order to allow
people in ;-)
Interesting history prog on TV here the other day where they were
restoring some house (18th century I believe); rather than restoring
back to how it was when it was built, they restored it back to as-found
(but ensuring that it would survive for another few hundred years) -
that included all the modifications that owners had added over time,
period repairs that had been done, and even period bodge-work that had
been carried out. Telling the story of how the place was actually used
over time was more important (and interesting) than being able to show
how it looked when it was first built.
I suppose there's a parallel can be drawn with old computers, *whilst
sufficient numbers in as-new condition exist*. Actually even then, maybe
that only applies to commodity machines - low-volume machines are
probably equally interesting both in original form and with any
modifications that owners may have made over the years.
I'm sort of sitting on the fence on that one; I'm not sure whether I
agree or not. But it's certainly food for thought, and 5155's are going
to be common as muck for a long time to come (second only to Osbornes I
think; I don't want to see another one of those damn things in my
life!).
My view has alayws been to keep the machine as
original as possible.
I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult"
screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts
with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular. I would at least save the screws, with a note or
something.
Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of
years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage the
case etc. :-)
It's the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in cases
or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no
problem with, providing there's sufficient knowledge out there to put
things back as they were (and any parts needed are easy to get hold of).
cheers
Jules
2:36 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
I suppose there's a parallel can be drawn with old
computers, *whilst
sufficient numbers in as-new condition exist*. Actually even then, maybe
that only applies to commodity machines - low-volume machines are
probably equally interesting both in original form and with any
modifications that owners may have made over the years.
A valid point. However, as the archivist, should you be altering the
object's historical fabric? Again, I don't see a problem with this, as
long as you fully document what you've done (and perhaps why) and keep the
original screws with the unit (or at least properly stored and catalogued)
so that the machine can be returned to its "original" state if/when
needed.
Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to
fade in a matter of
years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage the
case etc. :-)
Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied somewhere
inside the case. Standard archival procedure.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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3:07 p.m.
Ensuring that
the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of
years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage
the case etc. :-)
Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied
somewhere
inside the case. Standard archival procedure.
3:45 p.m.
Ensuring
that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of
years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage
the case etc. :-)
Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied
somewhere
inside the case. Standard archival procedure.
4:51 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
If it was a particularly rare or significant machine,
I might to that
with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep
the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't
replace anything I didn't have to replace.
What if Bristol Spline screws eventually become obsolete and the
manufacturing of the tools ceases? I know: you'll say "I have a lathe
(and know how to use it) and would manufacture one." Sure, we all have
lathes (and know how to use them). But wouldn't it be easier if someone
had just replaced the screws with more standard varieties and kept the
originals with the machine, tied to the inside case in an archival quality
bag?
--
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5:05 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:51 PM
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
What if electricity eventually becomes obsolete :)
Much of what is being saved is becoming obsolete, that is the whole point of
saving it as is otherwise we could only save what is being sold in the
stores today (we would have to throw out any CP/M computers to start with)!
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
If it was a particularly rare or significant
machine, I might to that
with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep
the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't
replace anything I didn't have to replace.
What if Bristol Spline screws eventually become obsolete and the
manufacturing of the tools ceases? I know: you'll say "I have a lathe
(and know how to use it) and would manufacture one." Sure, we all have
lathes (and know how to use them). But wouldn't it be easier if someone
had just replaced the screws with more standard varieties and kept the
originals with the machine, tied to the inside case in an archival quality
bag?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
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http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
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http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5:05 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Actually, a milling machine and dividing head would be useful, but you
can do milling in a small lathe, and, yes, I do have a dividing head.
If it was a particularly rare or significant
machine, I might to that
with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep
the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't
replace anything I didn't have to replace.
What if Bristol Spline screws eventually become obsolete and the
manufacturing of the tools ceases? I know: you'll say "I have a lathe
(and know how to use it) and would manufacture one." Sure, we all have lathes (and know how to use them). But wouldn't
it be easier if someone
Well, you could try asking somebody to make you one, or asking somebody
if they have the right tool that you could borrow, or...
had just replaced the screws with more standard
varieties and kept the
originals with the machine, tied to the inside case in an archival quality
bag?
Alternatively, Jules has already proved you can remove these screws with
pliers if you have to. Or you could drill them out (they even make LH
twist drills for this sort of thing). Or many other ways to get them out
if you had to and couldn't get the right tool. The point is to make as
few mods as possible _now_.
Are you suggesting that every Bristol Spline screw in every machine
(5155s, Datamasters, IBM typewriters, Friden Flexowriters, etc) should be
replaced now, just in case you can't get the right tool in the future.
What about replacing all UNC screws with metric (after re-tapping all the
holes) just in case inch-size spanners and allen keys cease to be
available (they're a lot harder to find than Metric in many UK tool shops
now). If not, why just replace them on machines you need to repair?
-tony
5:29 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Are you suggesting that every Bristol Spline screw in
every machine
(5155s, Datamasters, IBM typewriters, Friden Flexowriters, etc) should be
replaced now, just in case you can't get the right tool in the future.
No, I am not suggesting this, but what I am suggesting that is reasonable
to do so if there is a practical need and as long as the change is
documented.
--
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5:48 p.m.
On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 01:05 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Are you suggesting that every Bristol Spline screw in
every machine
(5155s, Datamasters, IBM typewriters, Friden Flexowriters, etc) should be
replaced now, just in case you can't get the right tool in the future.
My 2p on that one... in a word, no. I wouldn't do it on something that
used lots of them. But it makes more sense to do it one a machine that
only uses two or three of them where the original reason for them being
there has gone away.
We may well even have a set of bristol spline tools at the museum (I was
taking this IBM apart at home at the time) - we do have a couple of
flexowriters (although no equipment actively using them). Of course the
Colossus uses one too, which suggests that their team probably have a
set (given the large amount of sponsorship they have, that seems highly
likely)
cheers
Jules
4:08 p.m.
From: "der Mouse" <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:07 PM
I wouldn't trust a paper bag; it'll rip and dump the (probably
conductive) screws all over the board at the worst moment. I'd use a
plastic pill bottle, probably; if that comes loose, it is much less
likely to do damage, even if the machine is under power at the time.
But yes, using something other than adhesive to hold it in place is a
very good idea. Even on bare interior metal, leaving adhesive gunk
(which tape tends to do after a decade or two) is unpleasant.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Rather than use string that can deteriorate try nylon ties.
More importantly replace the original screws so they don't have a chance to
destroy what you're trying to save. As has been pointed out repeatedly the
right tools are cheap and available through a variety of sources. Anyone
working on anything that has value should value it enough to do it right.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to
fade in a matter of
years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage
the case etc. :-)
Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied
somewhere
inside the case. Standard archival procedure.
4:27 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, der Mouse wrote:
I wouldn't trust a paper bag; it'll rip and dump the (probably
conductive) screws all over the board at the worst moment. I'd use a
plastic pill bottle, probably; if that comes loose, it is much less
likely to do damage, even if the machine is under power at the time.
Ok, I should've been more specific: use an archival baggie. A plastic
pill bottle will out-gas and eventually become brittle and leave a little
mess (and drop the screws). Granted, this will take a fairly significant
period of time. An archival storage pouch would be better, perhaps one
made of cloth.
Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to
fade in a matter of
years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage
the case etc. :-)
Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied
somewhere
inside the case. Standard archival procedure. But yes, using something other than adhesive to hold
it in place is a
very good idea. Even on bare interior metal, leaving adhesive gunk
(which tape tends to do after a decade or two) is unpleasant.
And might in fact etch the metal.
--
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3:47 p.m.
A valid point. However, as the archivist, should you
be altering the
object's historical fabric? Again, I don't see a problem with this, as
This is exactly my point. You _don't_ make unnecessary modifications.
long as you fully document what you've done (and
perhaps why) and keep the
original screws with the unit (or at least properly stored and catalogued)
so that the machine can be returned to its "original" state if/when
needed.
Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still
around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the
original holes.
-tony
4:55 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
It's reversible, unlike a cut solder trace, which is "reversible" but
still causes permanent destruction of the artifact.
What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected
on various machines you own? Are they with the machine? Are they secured
to it so that it won't get separated? Will the ink remain readable
forever? Will the paper remain intact forever? If not then wouldn't it
have been safer for you to have never made those modifications in the
first place?
--
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A valid point.
However, as the archivist, should you be altering the
object's historical fabric? Again, I don't see a problem with this, as
This is exactly my point. You _don't_ make unnecessary modifications. long as you
fully document what you've done (and perhaps why) and keep the
original screws with the unit (or at least properly stored and catalogued)
so that the machine can be returned to its "original" state if/when
needed.
Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still
around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the
original holes.
5 p.m.
Provided the
screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still
around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the
original holes.
What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected on various machines you own? Are they with the
machine? Are they secured
to it so that it won't get separated? Will the ink remain readable
forever? Will the paper remain intact forever? If not then wouldn't it
have been safer for you to have never made those modifications in the
first place?
Yes it would. But you're forgetting something. I _use_ my classic
computers, and therefore make modifications to make them more useable
while preserving the basic design of the machine (what I mean my that is
that I will hack a memory board to use larger-capacity ICs, I will make a
mod to use a more modern replacement chip [1], etc. What I won't do is
totally change the architecture of the machine, e.g. by replacing the
guts with a PC running an emulator).
Yes, if I was only interested in preserving the machines, I'd never run
them, I'd never change anything. But alas I am interested in using them too.
However, as I keep on saying, I still want to do as few modifications as
possible. Yes, I will happilly do the 640K mod to a PC/XT, including a
5155 portable. In fact I did this mod to my 5155 (expansion slots are
tight, not much software will run in the standard 256K). That's a useful
mod. But there is no good reason to change those damn screws!
[1] for example, an HP9810 repair. I did eventually get the right IC (and
put it in place of this mod), but this got the machine working again:
Replacing the 74H52 IC on the memory timing PCB (09810-66522)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Well, have you ever tried to get one :-) However, _on this PCB_ it can be
replaced by a 74LS51, suitably wired.
Remove old IC carefully, in case it's still good.
Bend out all pins of a 74LS51 apart from 1, 7, 14. Put this chip in place
of the old one. solder 1, 7, 14 to the PCB. Solder wires (wire-wrap wire
is ideal) as follows :
PCB 2 -> IC 13, IC 12
PCB 3 -> IC 11
PCB 4 -> IC 10
PCB 5 -> IC 9
IC 8 -> IC 2, IC 3, IC 4, IC 5
PCB 8 -> IC 6
mu(26)/ -------|\
| \ +---|\
ALU(0) ----+---| >-----+ | | >----+
| | / | +---|/ |
+---|/ | | +---)\
+---)\ | ) >o---- TRegSin
) >o---+---|\ +---)/
mu(25+24/)/----|\ +---)/ | | >----+
| \ | +---|/
T(0)-----------| >------+
| /
mu(26)---------|/
-tony
5:21 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
They are, of course, in the appropriate service manuals, etc.
Ok, are those service manuals inside the machines you modified? How can
you be sure they never be separated from the machines?
So, if Jules decides they want to exhibit the 5155 (i.e. USE it) he can't
make modifications to it that he considers making it more "useable"
because you disagree with his methods? Who's to say your methods are any
better?
Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of
paper is still
around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the
original holes.
What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected on various
machines you own? Are they with the machine? Are they secured
to it so that it won't get separated? Will the ink remain readable
forever? Will the paper remain intact forever? If not then wouldn't it
have been safer for you to have never made those modifications in the
first place?
Yes it would. But you're forgetting something. I _use_ my classic
computers, and therefore make modifications to make them more useable
while preserving the basic design of the machine (what I mean my that is
that I will hack a memory board to use larger-capacity ICs, I will make a
mod to use a more modern replacement chip [1], etc. What I won't do is totally change the architecture of the machine, e.g.
by replacing the
guts with a PC running an emulator).
Yeah, no one is suggesting that here. I have no idea why this is being
brought up (again).
However, as I keep on saying, I still want to do as
few modifications as
possible. Yes, I will happilly do the 640K mod to a PC/XT, including a
5155 portable. In fact I did this mod to my 5155 (expansion slots are
tight, not much software will run in the standard 256K). That's a useful
mod. But there is no good reason to change those damn screws!
No "good" reason that you can fathom at least. And let's compare bananas
to bananas here: Jules is not doing a 640K mod on the 5155 (if he was,
would you object? After all, he is making what you would consider a
"useful" modification) he's swapping screws: a completely non-permanent,
easily reversible, and (if reversed) non-detectable alteration. You're a
hobbyist hacker making practical (extensive) alterations. He's an
archivist making practical (minimal, non-permanent, easily reversible)
alterations. BIG DIFFERENCE.
You've turned an anthill into Mount Everest.
--
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5:43 p.m.
What about all the notes you've made of the
modifications you've effected
They are, of course, in the appropriate service manuals, etc. you be sure they never be separated from the machines?
I cna't. I can be darn sure I'll never separate them, and I've told the
guy who gets my collection if I snuff it that he must check all service
manuals and other docs for my notes.
YEs, it's quite possible the documentation will get lost. I alas consider
this to be a necessary evil of keeping these machines useful and operational.
So, if Jules decides they want to exhibit the 5155 (i.e. USE it) he can't
make modifications to it that he considers making it more "useable"
If it was a mod that made it more usable, then I'd agree....
If that monitor was assembled with screws that were impossible to remove
non-destructively, then I would have no problem with drilling them out
and replacing them with something else since the monitor needs repair. If
the delivery time on a Bristol Spline key was 1 year or something, then
considering Jules has already removed the screws with pliers, I guess he
should order the tool, put the monitor back together with normal screws
for the time being (given that documentation is not hard to preserve for
1 year), and when the tool arrives, put the original screws back in.
But, darn it, the right tool is not hard to obtain, there is no good
reason for not keeping the original screws.
No "good" reason that you can fathom at
least. And let's compare bananas
to bananas here: Jules is not doing a 640K mod on the 5155 (if he was,
would you object? After all, he is making what you would consider a
No, I'd have no problem with that, provided it was documented as such (a
paint dot on each of the replaced ICs is the conventional way to indicate
such changes I think, along with paper documentation of what was changed
and why, and the date). In fact I would recomend doing that modification
if it's not already been done, it was a common mod when the machine was
current, it lets you run a lot more software on it.
"useful" modification) he's swapping
screws: a completely non-permanent,
easily reversible, and (if reversed) non-detectable alteration. You're a
hobbyist hacker making practical (extensive) alterations. He's an
archivist making practical (minimal, non-permanent, easily reversible)
alterations. BIG DIFFERENCE.
My comment is, and has always beem, that an archivist, and for that
matter anyone else, should not make a modification unless there's a darn
good reason for it. Not wanting to buy the right tool is not a good reason.
-tony
5:25 p.m.
New subject: New PC in classic chassis was Re: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:00 PM
<snip>
Yes it would. But you're forgetting something. I
_use_ my classic
computers, and therefore make modifications to make them more useable
while preserving the basic design of the machine (what I mean my that is
that I will hack a memory board to use larger-capacity ICs, I will make a
mod to use a more modern replacement chip [1], etc. What I won't do is
totally change the architecture of the machine, e.g. by replacing the
guts with a PC running an emulator).
<snip>
-tony
What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer & Howard Harte) is developing a
line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a classic
looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed).
They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it
accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights &
switches that ties into an emulator ;-)
The same chassis & front panel also works with an S100 card cage & EZ80
based CPU to be a "real classic" computer (but new manufacture).
Todd is looking into having a dummy front that is non-functional to reduce
cost but allow a modern computer to look like a classic.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
6:01 p.m.
New subject: New PC in classic chassis was Re: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:25 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer &
Howard Harte) is developing a
line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a classic
looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed).
They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it
accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights &
switches that ties into an emulator ;-)
Why? I don't mean why do it at all, because it's a cool enough thing to
do, by why use a full-blown ATX PC? Isn't that going to make the final
thing rather expensive and overkill for the task that the thing needs to
do?
I mean, software-level emulation of something like an Imsai presumably
needs a few percent of the horsepower of any ATX PC.
Better still, do it in hardware but using modern parts, which at least
teaches people a bit about how the thing actually works as well as being
functional.
cheers
Jules
6:07 p.m.
New subject: New PC in classic chassis was Re: IBM 5155 analogue display fault
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:25 -0500, Randy McLaughlin
wrote:
Because it's also intended to be a useful work machine, not just a repro
IMSAI.
--
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What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer
& Howard Harte) is developing a
line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a classic
looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed).
They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it
accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights &
switches that ties into an emulator ;-)
Why? I don't mean why do it at all, because it's a cool enough thing to
do, by why use a full-blown ATX PC? Isn't that going to make the final
thing rather expensive and overkill for the task that the thing needs to
do?
6:25 p.m.
New subject: New PC in classic chassis
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:07 PM
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
Correct, they are building a true retro computer based on the 8 bit EZ80.
Once the chassis is manufactured it makes sense to market the same chassis
to other uses.
The chassis is manufactured to be a replacement of the original Imsai 8080
chassis where it has mounting holes for the original linear PS-28
power-supply, original S100 backplane, etc as well as capable of mounting a
current PC.
If someone has a missing cover on their old chassis I assume the current
cover can be used as a replacement etc.
There are several markets available, it supports a classic environment and I
think it's a great idea.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:25 -0500, Randy
McLaughlin wrote:
Because it's also intended to be a useful work machine, not just a repro
IMSAI.
--
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Festival
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http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ] What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer
& Howard Harte) is developing
a
line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a
classic
looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed).
They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it
accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights &
switches that ties into an emulator ;-)
Why? I don't mean why do it at all, because it's a cool enough thing to
do, by why use a full-blown ATX PC? Isn't that going to make the final
thing rather expensive and overkill for the task that the thing needs to
do?
6:06 p.m.
[...]. That's a useful mod. But there is no good
reason to change
those damn screws!
As Sellam just said, it's all a question of how good people consider
reasons to be.
You (apparently) consider it perfectly reasonable to go buy a whole new
set of tools (specifically, these Bristol spline thingies) to work on a
machine. You don't consider having to buy those tools obstacle enough
to make it worth swapping the screws for something commoner.
I do. Apparently a few other people here do too.
And since the conversation appears to have degenerated into "yes that
is a good reason" "no it isn't" "is!" "isn't!"
(I'm paraphrasing, but
not all that much), I'm going to just agree to disagree, at least
insofar as one can unilaterally agree on anything.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
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3:38 p.m.
agree or not. But it's certainly food for thought,
and 5155's are going
to be common as muck for a long time to come (second only to Osbornes I
think; I don't want to see another one of those damn things in my
life!).
Actually. I've mever seen an Osbourne... The only portables I have of
that sort of size are the IBM 5155 and the HP IPC.
It's the irreversable stuff I don't like -
people cutting holes in cases
or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no
But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire over
the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for this.
-tony
4:39 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Tony, I'm calling you out: this is utter and complete bullshit.
You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you
could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws
is permanently altering a machine's make-up?
Please tell me you're joking.
--
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It's the
irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in cases
or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no
But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire over
the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for this.
4:55 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:39 PM
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Tony, I'm calling you out: this is utter and complete bullshit.
You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you
could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws
is permanently altering a machine's make-up?
Please tell me you're joking.
--
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Festival
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Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed. Anyone looking at the
repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the
original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
It's
the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in
cases
or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no
But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire over
the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for this.
5:04 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed.
Anyone looking at the
repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the
original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced.
I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by
the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments).
That being the case, which would you consider worse?
--
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5:11 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
I think that a museum or other true archivist should do only those
modifications and replace only those parts necessary to keep the machine
operational, and then the replacement parts should be clearly
identifyable as such. This would seem to agree with what is done to other
mechancial artefacts in museums (e.g. clocks).
However I am not an archivist, nor do I claim to be one (and nor, to be
honest are many of the people on this list). I use my machines. I
therefore feel it's reasoable to make modifications to make them more
useable.
However, I make those modifications as reversable as possible (I would
rather not cut a PCB track, but sometimes there is no other way, for
example). And I don't make them if I don't have to (which is what this
darn thread started off about).
-tony
Many PC boards have had mods that are later
reversed. Anyone looking at the
repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the
original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced.
I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by
the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments).
5:33 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Ok, so finally you are agreeing with me.
On Tue, 31 May
2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
I think that a museum or other true archivist should do only those
modifications and replace only those parts necessary to keep the machine
operational, and then the replacement parts should be clearly
identifyable as such. This would seem to agree with what is done to other
mechancial artefacts in museums (e.g. clocks). Many PC boards have had mods that are later
reversed. Anyone looking at the
repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the
original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced.
I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by
the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments). However, I make those modifications as reversable as
possible (I would
rather not cut a PCB track, but sometimes there is no other way, for
example). And I don't make them if I don't have to (which is what this
darn thread started off about).
Different contexts, different reasons. The change was negligible.
In the end, I would agree with you: get the proper tool, and leave the
original screws in place (this is what I would do). However, your
arguments against Jules swapping screws were so entirely irrational that I
found fault with them.
--
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5:34 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:04 PM
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
There are two things that can be done to preserve a machine: Keep the
original parts in the machine even if it no longer works. Revive the
machine even if it requires replace a classic component that is no longer
available with a current replacement.
In the second case it becomes important to document what was done and why
but both are valid ways to preserve machines.
To replace an original part with a different part with no valid reason it is
a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
Many PC boards have had mods that are later
reversed. Anyone looking at
the
repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the
original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced.
I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by
the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments).
That being the case, which would you consider worse?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
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5:56 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
To replace an original part with a different part with
no valid reason it is
a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason.
The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and
whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is
lost" if two screws are replaced).
--
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6:17 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:56 PM
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
I personally have lost screws, I do not cry I replace them with the closest
I can find.
If the tool needed was too expensive or I couldn't find it I would replace
the screws.
If it is a current machine that at the time I didn't consider collectable I
wouldn't sweat it.
If the machine is collectable (at least in my mind) then keeping it original
is important.
Even if it is important to keep it original then there are factors that can
over-ride it. The answer is in the mind of the collector, in this case he
decided not to keep it original.
As for any PC I don't really care but the principles apply to all
collectables.
I just think it a shame when anyone considers a machine valuable as a
collectable but not valuable to keep it original when reasonable.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
To replace an original part with a different part
with no valid reason it
is
a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason.
The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and
whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is
lost" if two screws are replaced).
--
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1 Jun
1 Jun
4:16 p.m.
I personally have lost screws, I do not cry I replace
them with the closest
I can find.
Me too. Ditto if I get a machine with screws missing. I find screws with
the right thread and put them in. Better that than having some part not
properly fixed.
If the tool needed was too expensive or I couldn't find it I would replace
the screws.
Well, I might have a go at making the tool (or modifying one, e.g.
drilling a hold in a Torx or Allen hex tool to fit a tamperproof screw if
the right tool wasn't available).
-tony
4:06 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
I would argue that history is lost if _any_ change is made, and
certainly if any part is replaced.
What it comes down to, really, is 'is the benefit from making that change
worth the loss of history'? Since non-working computers have little
interest, I would claim that replacements needed to get or keep a machine
going are likely to be worth doing. But I am still not happy with
replacing a part just because you don't want to buy the right tool.
Also, please remember that this machine is owned by a museum. I would
expect museums to have higher standards for preserving originality than
most enthusiasts. Pity this doesn't seem to be the case.
-tony
To replace an original part with a different part
with no valid reason it is
a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason.
The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and
whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is
lost" if two screws are replaced).
2 Jun
2 Jun
4:13 a.m.
On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 00:06 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Much like modifying PCBs... :-)
Remember this is a machine that's going to be used by children at events
(well, assuming the primary one is out of action); it's going to have a
very different life to static exhibits or operational machines that
aren't left totally open for people to play with.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
I would argue that history is lost if _any_ change is made, and
certainly if any part is replaced. To replace an original part with a different part
with no valid reason it is
a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason.
The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and
whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is
lost" if two screws are replaced). Also, please remember that this machine is owned by a
museum. I would
expect museums to have higher standards for preserving originality than
most enthusiasts. Pity this doesn't seem to be the case.
We have several 5155s, all in original state. Unifying the screws on one
that's most likely to need to be dismantled seems like a sensible thing
to do for that reason. Remember that these are not - at this time - rare
machines.
If at some stage they *do* become rare then fitting original screws is
possible if needs be as we have reference machines (and very likely the
relevant technical info on the shelf)
cheers
Jules
3:26 p.m.
I would argue
that history is lost if _any_ change is made, and
certainly if any part is replaced.
Much like modifying PCBs... :-)
Remember this is a machine that's going to be used by children at events
(well, assuming the primary one is out of action); it's going to have a
What's that go to do with the choice of internal screws...
very different life to static exhibits or operational
machines that
aren't left totally open for people to play with.
Well, what will you do when a monitor fails on one of the others? Put the
right screws back, or bodge it? If the former, you will have to get the
Bristol Spline tool. So why not get it now? In fact you darn well ought
to have a set anyway.
Also, please remember that this machine is owned
by a museum. I would
expect museums to have higher standards for preserving originality than
most enthusiasts. Pity this doesn't seem to be the case.
We have several 5155s, all in original state. Unifying the screws on one If at some stage they *do* become rare then fitting
original screws is
possible if needs be as we have reference machines (and very likely the
Provided those have not been changed!
relevant technical info on the shelf)
Well, it's not in the Guide to Operations (which does cover pulling the
case, it does cover inserting expansion cards and the like). It's not in
the TechRef. It may be in the HMS (Hardware Maintenance and Service)
manual, I don't have that one, but the HMS manual for the PC/AT does
_not_ describe what scews go where. It assumes you put back the screws
you take out. DO you have the HMS manual?
One final point (I hope). I am, as I am sure you know, an active member
of HPCC. A few years back, we looked at the HP12C calculator, which was
the machine that HP had made for the longest time (I think we looked at
it on the 21st aniversary or something). We got as many of the machines
together as we coold, and looked at the changes that were made over the
production run.
Of course there were many. Early machines had a separate logic module
containing the display and ICs that fitted into the case and connected to
the keyboard PCB via a zebrastrip. Later machines had it all on one
board. but still with 2 ICs (the NUT CPU and the R2D2 ROM/RAM/Display
Driver). Then there was a single IC version. And so on.
Now one, and only one, of the machines we looked had had TX6 Torx screws
holding the case together rather than the Pozidriv used in all other
machines. I am pretty sure that was original, and we noted it as a
separate variant.
We do _NOT_ want a variant of the 5155 IBM Portable PC with Pozidriv and
not Bristol Spline screws in the monitor suddently springing into
existance to confuse averyone....
Incidentally, have you figured out what's wrong with this machine yet?
-tony
1 Jun
1 Jun
4:50 p.m.
You would advocate physically marring a board as
"reversible" since you
could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws
is permanently altering a machine's make-up?
Please tell me you're joking.
No I am not joking...
A PCB cut and repair is (a) generally a useful modification (either to
trace a fault, or to improve the machine in some way, and then to go back
to the original configuration). And (b) it's bleeding obvious what's been
done.
It is _not_ obvious that the original screws were, say, Bristol Spline
head if they've been replaced with Pozidriv or whatever.
Now, if the machine was assembled with fasteners that were genuinely
impossible to get the right tool to remove, or if it was pop-riveted
together, or something, then I would agree it would be sensible to
replace said fasteners with something more conventional and make a note
to that effect if the machine was rare/significant. That's what I would
claim to be a useful modification.
My moan from the start is that there is no good reason to replace the
original Bristol Spline screws with anything else. Period. And if there's
no good reason to change something, you don't change it.
When there is a good reason to change something, then I see no problem
with changing it, provided you document the changes and attempt to make
sure said documentation is preserved.
-tony
31 May
31 May
5:11 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
You're telling me that permanently altering a computer in a museum setting
by cutting traces and modifying components is less intrusive than swapping
screws? Please explain how this is the case.
You would
advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you
could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws
is permanently altering a machine's make-up?
Please tell me you're joking.
No I am not joking...
A PCB cut and repair is (a) generally a useful modification (either to
trace a fault, or to improve the machine in some way, and then to go back
to the original configuration). And (b) it's bleeding obvious what's been
done. It is _not_ obvious that the original screws were,
say, Bristol Spline
head if they've been replaced with Pozidriv or whatever.
It is equally non-obvious that the modification was done contemporarily or
prior to the museum taking possession.
My moan from the start is that there is no good reason
to replace the
original Bristol Spline screws with anything else. Period. And if there's
no good reason to change something, you don't change it.
In this case, there was what I would consider a good reason: Jules didn't
have a Bristol Spline tool on him and wanted to swap out the screws to
something more serviceable for future work. As far as I'm concerned (with
the caveats I have expressed) that's reasonable.
When there is a good reason to change something, then
I see no problem
with changing it, provided you document the changes and attempt to make
sure said documentation is preserved.
I agree. So how do you rationalize the cutting of traces and
modifications of parts to make something work to be acceptable but the
swapping of screws to make something more practical to work on is
unacceptable, given in both cases you fully document the alteration?
Your logic does not compute.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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5:31 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
You're telling me that permanently altering a computer in a museum setting
by cutting traces and modifying components is less intrusive than swapping
screws? Please explain how this is the case.
It's not. But then I don't claim to run a museum. I do claim to use
classic computers. A museum should change _nothing_ unless absolutely
necessary to keep the machine operations (I feel that non-working
computers have no interest whatsoever :-)). _I_ should change only that
which is necessary to keep the machines useful.
You would
advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you
could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws
is permanently altering a machine's make-up?
Please tell me you're joking.
No I am not joking...
A PCB cut and repair is (a) generally a useful modification (either to
trace a fault, or to improve the machine in some way, and then to go back
to the original configuration). And (b) it's bleeding obvious what's been
done. It is _not_ obvious that the original screws
were, say, Bristol Spline
head if they've been replaced with Pozidriv or whatever.
It is equally non-obvious that the modification was done contemporarily or
prior to the museum taking possession. My moan from the start is that there is no good
reason to replace the
original Bristol Spline screws with anything else. Period. And if there's
no good reason to change something, you don't change it.
In this case, there was what I would consider a good reason: Jules didn't
have a Bristol Spline tool on him and wanted to swap out the screws to
something more serviceable for future work. As far as I'm concerned (with
the caveats I have expressed) that's reasonable. When there is a good reason to change something,
then I see no problem
with changing it, provided you document the changes and attempt to make
sure said documentation is preserved.
I agree. So how do you rationalize the cutting of traces and
modifications of parts to make something work to be acceptable but the
swapping of screws to make something more practical to work on is
unacceptable, given in both cases you fully document the alteration?
1 Jun
1 Jun
8:39 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:38:06 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Yikes!
I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is
wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along
the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring
defect, and make it _more_ difficult to find the open line. The proper
rework method (the only one allowed at the Medical Device manufacturers
I have worked at) is to install an obvious jumper wire, and only from
pad/hole to pad/hole. NEVER just 'tacked onto' a track. Never 'surface
soldered' anywhere that there isn't a mechanical fit before heat/solder
is applied.
But I used to do troubleshooting/rework in an environment where the line
workers would DISGUISE their screwups. Rip out a plated-through hole?
Tack in a little ring made of #30 wire to SIMULATE the solder pad. They
did whatever they could to 'get away' with not having to fix something
properly (which would mean drawing attention to the fact that they'd
screwed it up in the first place) GRRRR.
Sorry for the rant.
agree or not.
But it's certainly food for thought, and 5155's are
going to be common as muck for a long time to come (second only to
Osbornes I think; I don't want to see another one of those damn
things in my life!).
Actually. I've mever seen an Osbourne... The only portables I have of
that sort of size are the IBM 5155 and the HP IPC.
It's the irreversable stuff I don't like
- people cutting holes in
cases or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I
have no
But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire
over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for
this.
2 Jun
2 Jun
3:07 p.m.
But PCB tracks
can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire
over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for
this.
Yikes!
I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is
wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along
the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring
1:03 p.m.
But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a
piece of wire
over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for
this.
Yikes!
I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is
wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along
the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring
31 May
31 May
3:35 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
YEs, but then again normal users are not expected to go _inside_ the PSU
even of a modern PC...
My view has alayws been to keep the machine as
original as possible.
I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult"
screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts
with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular.
I would at least save the screws, with a note or something.
Small parts, and notes, get lost. Since the right tool is available, and
not ridiculously expensive, you should do the Right Thing and put the
screws back in place.
-tony
4:36 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
You previously suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box.
Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After all,
someone in the future might think IBM included this tool in all 5155's,
which would then raise a riddle for them to solve: why would IBM go
through the trouble of using non-standard screws to secure an enclosure
that they didn't want the end user to open if they included the tool to
open it anyway?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Tony Duell
wrote:
YEs, but then again normal users are not expected to go _inside_ the PSU
even of a modern PC...
My view has alayws been to keep the machine as
original as possible.
I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult"
screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts
with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular.
I would at least save the screws, with a note or something.
Small parts, and notes, get lost. Since the right tool is available, and
not ridiculously expensive, you should do the Right Thing and put the
screws back in place.
1 Jun
1 Jun
4:44 p.m.
You previously suggested putting the correct size tool
inside the box.
Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After all,
Yes, I suppose it would. OK, if you've going to stick a tool inside the
machine, put a label on it saying this is not an original IBM part, it's
provided for the benefit of future repaires who are too brain-dead to buy
Bristol Spline keys :-)
For the record, my 5155 has the original Bristol spline screws in the
monitor section, and there are no tools fixed inside it...
-tony
31 May
31 May
5:02 p.m.
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
OK, what if that label gets lost? What if the tool gets loose and shorts
out several pins or traces, doing damage to the machine the next time it
is powered up?
--
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You previously
suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box.
Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After all,
Yes, I suppose it would. OK, if you've going to stick a tool inside the
machine, put a label on it saying this is not an original IBM part, it's
provided for the benefit of future repaires who are too brain-dead to buy
Bristol Spline keys :-)
5:14 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:02 PM
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
OK, what if that label gets lost? What if the tool gets loose and shorts
out several pins or traces, doing damage to the machine the next time it
is powered up?
--
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Festival
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http://www.vintage.org
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http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
I think you might have come up with a great idea, don't put anything extra
into it at all :)
Since you have so many classic systems it's obvious it would make sense to
have the tools to work on them in your toolbox :)
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
You
previously suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box.
Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After
all,
Yes, I suppose it would. OK, if you've going to stick a tool inside the
machine, put a label on it saying this is not an original IBM part, it's
provided for the benefit of future repaires who are too brain-dead to buy
Bristol Spline keys :-)
5:26 p.m.
On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote:
I think you might have come up with a great idea,
don't put anything extra
into it at all :)
I think the point is two-fold:
1) It can be sensible and reasonable to do so if done appropriately
2) One person's modifications are another person's abhorrence
Since you have so many classic systems it's
obvious it would make sense to
have the tools to work on them in your toolbox :)
Yes, and I do.
--
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