26 May
2010
26 May
'10
2:17 p.m.
Hi Dan,
If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in!
I can fix the others too, if you wish.
The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little
harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300.
Wells Gardner if I recall.
Here's a interesting page on the vector generator...
http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm
Randy Dawson
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26 May
26 May
2:32 p.m.
For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y mode... even better if you
can trigger off of another input too.
________________________________
From: Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
To: classic computers <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:17:14 PM
Subject: asteroids board
Hi Dan,
If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in!
I can fix the others too, if you wish.
The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little
harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300.
Wells Gardner if I recall.
Here's a interesting page on the vector generator...
http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm
Randy Dawson
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2:41 p.m.
been there, done that. and yep, Z axis too.
Hey for fun, here is a scope clock kit, I just built one and its great. Now I have
$25,000 (1970's price) Textronix 7000 series clock.....
http://www.dutchtronix.com/ScopeClock.htm
Randy
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:32:38 -0700
From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: asteroids board
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y mode... even better if
you can trigger off of another input too.
________________________________
From: Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
To: classic computers <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:17:14 PM
Subject: asteroids board
Hi Dan,
If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in!
I can fix the others too, if you wish.
The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little
harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300.
Wells Gardner if I recall.
Here's a interesting page on the vector generator...
http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm
Randy Dawson
_________________________________________________________________
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3:04 p.m.
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote:
been there, done that. ?and yep, Z axis too.
Hey for fun, here is a scope clock kit, I just built one and its great. ?Now I have
$25,000 (1970's price) Textronix 7000 series clock.....
http://www.dutchtronix.com/ScopeClock.htm
I built one of those -
http://www.dutchtronix.com/images/dutchtronix_v3a_q.jpg - I love it.
-ethan
7:13 p.m.
On Wed, 26 May 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I built one of those -
http://www.dutchtronix.com/images/dutchtronix_v3a_q.jpg - I love it.
Same here. I had mine at VCF East 6.0 hooked to a Tektronix 608, but
it died after an hour so I connected it to my Tektronix 485.
http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0520-L.jpg
http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0521-L.jpg
http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0522-L.jpg
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
7:01 p.m.
I had a Tempest and Asteroids Deluxe machines for a little while. Vector games are fun to
work on.
On May 26, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Randy Dawson wrote:
been there, done that. and yep, Z axis too.
Hey for fun, here is a scope clock kit, I just built one and its great. Now I have
$25,000 (1970's price) Textronix 7000 series clock.....
http://www.dutchtronix.com/ScopeClock.htm
Randy
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:32:38 -0700
From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: asteroids board
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y mode... even better if
you can trigger off of another input too.
________________________________
From: Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
To: classic computers <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:17:14 PM
Subject: asteroids board
Hi Dan,
If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in!
I can fix the others too, if you wish.
The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little
harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300.
Wells Gardner if I recall.
Here's a interesting page on the vector generator...
http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm
Randy Dawson
_________________________________________________________________
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12:33 p.m.
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: asteroids board
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:26:10 +0100
I think he meant to say Z-axis modulated, blank the trace between vector draw.
Randy
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For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y
mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too.
Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just
what is 'triggered' ?
-tony
12:49 p.m.
That's correct.
________________________________
From: Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com>
To: classic computers <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 2:33:33 PM
Subject: RE: asteroids board
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: asteroids board
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:26:10 +0100
I think he meant to say Z-axis modulated, blank the trace between vector draw.
Randy
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For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y
mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too.
Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just
what is 'triggered' ?
-tony 
5:14 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
The Vertical and Horizontal Timebase is detached internally when
switching to X-Y mode. There is no triggering involved. Basically, the
inputs are fed directly into the deflection control for each X axis and
Y axis - much like on a Vector monitor inside the Asteroids cabinet. So
then the voltage input is converted to deflect the beam up/down or
left/right. For those scopes with a Z axis input, this provides an
additional intensity level control to change the brightness of the beam.
=Dan
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
For just
playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y
mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too.
Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just
what is 'triggered' ?
6:48 a.m.
Dan Roganti wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
The Vertical and Horizontal Timebase is detached internally when
switching to X-Y mode. There is no triggering involved. Basically, the
inputs are fed directly into the deflection control for each X axis
and Y axis - much like on a Vector monitor inside the Asteroids
cabinet. So then the voltage input is converted to deflect the beam
up/down or left/right. For those scopes with a Z axis input, this
provides an additional intensity level control to change the
brightness of the beam.
oops, I forgot to finish my thought, sorry about that.
The Z axis blanking is internal to the asteroids board, you wouldn't
need any external triggering. That circuit shuts off the beam during
retrace -- that's as along as the scope has a Z input.
=Dan
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
For just
playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y
mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too.
Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering
just what is 'triggered' ? 
2:33 p.m.
Dan Roganti wrote:
The Z axis blanking is internal to the asteroids board, you wouldn't
need any external triggering. That circuit shuts off the beam during
retrace -- that's as along as the scope has a Z input.
Note that most
oscilliscopes that have a Z input use capacitive coupling
on that input, which is generally not very useful for a computer (or
videogame) display.
3:30 p.m.
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:33:40 -0700
From: eric at brouhaha.com
To:
Subject: Re: asteroids board
Dan Roganti wrote:
Hey Dan,
what?
Never in my life saw that, Z is always DC, specified as positive signal decreases
intensity. Tube will stay dark all day long with voltage applied, its not cap coupled.
Randy
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The Z axis blanking is internal to the asteroids board, you wouldn't
need any external triggering. That circuit shuts off the beam during
retrace -- that's as along as the scope has a Z input.
Note that most
oscilliscopes that have a Z input use capacitive coupling
on that input, which is generally not very useful for a computer (or
videogame) display.
6:15 p.m.
I wrote:
Note that most oscilliscopes that have a Z input use
capacitive coupling
on that input, which is generally not very useful for a computer (or
videogame) display
Randy Dawson wrote:
Hey Dan,
Wasn't Dan that posted that, it was me.
what?
Never in my life saw that, Z is always DC, specified as positive signal decreases
intensity. Tube will stay dark all day long with voltage applied, its not cap coupled.
I've seen many scopes with AC-coupled Z-axis inputs; they were more
common than DC-coupled, though usually the high-end scopes (e.g., Tek
465) had DC-coupled Z-axis.
Quoting from _Oscilliscopes: How to Use Them, How They Work_, 5e, by Ian
Hickman, p73:
Some oscilloscopes have dc coupling of the /Z axis/ input, but
/ac coupling/ is much cheaper
and therefore more common,
Eric
29 May
29 May
10:12 a.m.
['scope Z input]
Every analogue 'scope that I've used or worked on has had a
capacively-coupled Z input. It makes sense. You want to have the
deflection plates close to earth potential which means the cathode is at
a high (several kV) negative voltage. To apply a signal to that (which is
what Z modulation does), it's easiest to capacitively couple it.
Many vector monitors aee electromagnetically deflected, like a TV, so the
cathode can be run close to earth potential (with a high +ve voltage on
the final anode). In which case you can DC-couple the Z modulation signal
easily.
I can't rememebr what HP did in the 1311, etc. That's electrostatically
deflected, but it also hasa DC-coupled Z input. I will have to look it up
-tony
on that
input=2C which is generally not very useful for a computer (or=20
videogame) display.
=20
Hey Dan=2C
what?
Never in my life saw that=2C Z is always DC=2C specified as positive signal=
decreases intensity. Tube will stay dark all day long with voltage applie=
d=2C its not cap coupled.
28 May
28 May
1:05 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
The Vertical and Horizontal Timebase is detached internally when
switching to X-Y mode. There is no triggering involved. Basically, the
inputs are fed directly into the deflection control for each X axis and
Y axis - much like on a Vector monitor inside the Asteroids cabinet. So
Err, yes, I realise that. I have worked on vector display systems
(although not arcade games [1]) and I do own several 'scopes...
[1] But the only hoime video game console I own uses a vector display...
For just
playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y
mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too.
Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just
what is 'triggered' ?
then the voltage input is converted to deflect the
beam up/down or
left/right. For those scopes with a Z axis input, this provides an
additional intensity level control to change the brightness of the beam.
Looks at the 'CRT Cathode' terminals on the back of my 555....
My comment was the word 'trigger'. I don't see how that could apply to a
vector display.
-tony
26 May
26 May
11:15 p.m.
Randy Dawson wrote:
Hi Dan,
If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in!
ok, no prob. I'll have to look for a second box first.
I can fix the others too, if you wish.
I could use another one repaired, just so I have a standby when I need
to troubleshoot anything.
If you don't mind, I like to trade you one for fixing one of mine.
The problem for most folks is that they will need a
vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about
$300.
Wells Gardner if I recall.
Here's a interesting page on the vector generator...
http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.ht
I like that wepbage, I haven't found that
before
I currently use these for reference.
http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroidsrepair.html
http://andysarcade.de/asteroids.html
Then there's this one that went offline that I was hoping that somebody
has it mirrored.
The internet archive has this but without the images
http://web.archive.org/web/20071110130808/gls1electronics.com/atari/asteroi…
I have access to several atari vector monitors too, they need work of
course, but I noticed that most of them have either the X or Y
deflection boards that are bad on these, which can be rather straight
forward to repair.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I would love to have an Asteroids board. A friend of
mine has a Lunar
Lander that might need some tube work (I think he told me that when he
hooks the outputs to an oscilloscope, the logic section all works), so
it might encourage the both of us to get something fixed up.
Sure, no prob. I'll have to check on the box and weight and let you know
about the shipping costs still, all I'm asking is $20 for the board--I
hope it doesn't matter which rev it is, I have to check what's all here
int he box again. I have PayPal too. I recall that the boards have
various problems besides the xtal - which I swapped between boards for
testing. The Xtal is 12.096mhz, I found these at Mouser for 50cents
#520-HCA1209-SX.
I use my Tek scope and LA mainly for repair but I could use some tips on
fixing these. I found some good webpages about repairing these that
really help. I'm in the middle of building an in-circuit TTL chip tester
using a microcontroller that should speed things up, but is slow going
at the moment due to family priorities. I'm curious what other
diagnostic tools you might have for these boards.
Eric Smith wrote:
Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom
games, as they
proudly explained in their "We stick our graphics where the sun don't
shine" advertising campaign with the illustration of a glowing brain:
http://www.atarimania.com/pubs/hi_res/pub_infocom.jpg
That reminds me of a little joke from over the years.
How do you tell if the computer game is vintage ?
When the graphics on the cabinet/box look better than the game itself :)
=Dan
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
27 May
27 May
3:55 a.m.
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 02:15:02 -0400
From: ragooman at comcast.net
To:
Subject: Re: asteroids board
Randy Dawson wrote:
Hi Dan,
I don't have any diagnostic tools other than a scope. I could not imagine hooking up
a logic analyzer to debug a known good circuit, that's reserved for development.
(I have a 7D01 LA for my scope, but no probes. (Ahh, ebay acquisition and so it sits on
the shelf)
Having a working, and a non working board is the fastest way to find the issue, power them
both up on the bench and cross probe between the two. Im guessin that were looking for a
stuck node, a failed gate somewhere or a solder joint that has given up. Remember, it was
working at one time...
I have a few goofy tricks that have saved some time, like just feel across the ics,
sometimes a failed part is much hotter than the rest.
I am looking at your links on the schematics, might it be fun to schematic capture these
and simulate them (its my current passion, PSPICE A/D and AMS). I could probably get
these into Orcad Capture or Concept HDL in a weekend.
Then set up a stimulus file for a hello world vector draw...
Are the jpegs on
http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroids_sheet2_sidea.jpg
the best we got? They are kind of fuzzy...
Randy
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Hi Dan,
If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in!
ok, no prob. I'll have to look for a second box first.
I can fix the others too, if you wish.
I could use another one repaired, just so I have a standby when I need
to troubleshoot anything.
If you don't mind, I like to trade you one for fixing one of mine.
The problem for most folks is that they will need
a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about
$300.
Wells Gardner if I recall.
Here's a interesting page on the vector generator...
http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.ht
I like that wepbage, I haven't found that
before
I currently use these for reference.
http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroidsrepair.html
http://andysarcade.de/asteroids.html
Then there's this one that went offline that I was hoping that somebody
has it mirrored.
The internet archive has this but without the images
http://web.archive.org/web/20071110130808/gls1electronics.com/atari/asteroi…
I have access to several atari vector monitors too, they need work of
course, but I noticed that most of them have either the X or Y
deflection boards that are bad on these, which can be rather straight
forward to repair.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I would love to have an Asteroids board. A
friend of mine has a Lunar
Lander that might need some tube work (I think he told me that when he
hooks the outputs to an oscilloscope, the logic section all works), so
it might encourage the both of us to get something fixed up.
Sure, no prob. I'll have to check on the box and weight and let you know
about the shipping costs still, all I'm asking is $20 for the board--I
hope it doesn't matter which rev it is, I have to check what's all here
int he box again. I have PayPal too. I recall that the boards have
various problems besides the xtal - which I swapped between boards for
testing. The Xtal is 12.096mhz, I found these at Mouser for 50cents
#520-HCA1209-SX.
I use my Tek scope and LA mainly for repair but I could use some tips on
fixing these. I found some good webpages about repairing these that
really help. I'm in the middle of building an in-circuit TTL chip tester
using a microcontroller that should speed things up, but is slow going
at the moment due to family priorities. I'm curious what other
diagnostic tools you might have for these boards.
Eric Smith wrote:
Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom
games, as they
proudly explained in their "We stick our graphics where the sun don't
shine" advertising campaign with the illustration of a glowing brain:
http://www.atarimania.com/pubs/hi_res/pub_infocom.jpg
That reminds me of a little joke from over the years.
How do you tell if the computer game is vintage ?
When the graphics on the cabinet/box look better than the game itself :)
=Dan
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
3:48 p.m.
On 27/05/10 11:55, Randy Dawson wrote:
Are the jpegs on
http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroids_sheet2_sidea.jpg
the best we got? They are kind of fuzzy...
Mike's Arcade has scanned B&W PDF versions:
<http://www.mikesarcade.com/arcade/manuals.html>
You'll need to print the pages off and glue them together yourself though...
Then there's the CityOfBerwyn archive:
<http://www.cityofberwyn.com/schematics/index.htm>
(search for "Asteroids") which has scanned, stitched TIFFs of all four
schematic sheets *and* the Binary Rate Multiplier Bodge-Board, at an
eye-wateringly high resolution.
Lastly, there's Andy's Arcade, which has (colour?!) PDF scans:
<http://andysarcade.de/asteroids.html>
If you're planning on meddling with the Digital Vector Generator, read
Jed Margolin's two articles on vector systems -- Secret Lives of XY
Monitors, and Secret Lives of Vector Generators. My "Hitch-Hacker's
Guide to the Atari Digital Vector Generator" might also be of some
interest to you -- that's on my website under "Electronics".
I've even got a Verilog implementation of the DVG logic and state
machine, though it's never been tested in an FPGA. I'll put it online if
anyone wants to take a peek (be warned: the code is Messy, Evil and was
implicated -- though not formally charged -- in a case where a man was
driven insane by its sheer messiness. You Have Been Warned.)
Oh, then there's the CRT X-Y display I half-built but shelved a while
ago (I shorted over one of the power buses and since then the trace has
been very jittery). That's due for a bit of documentation-and-redesign
work...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
13 Jun
13 Jun
8:44 a.m.
Then there's this one that went offline that I was
hoping that somebody
has it mirrored.
Something I always do is to mirror a site (and make it avaiable, if
possible, on the web) if the content is interesting enough and I suspect it
can ever come offline. Some things are too valuable to be missed.
14 Jun
14 Jun
11:02 a.m.
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas <
pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
Then there's this one that went offline that I was
hoping that somebody has
Sometimes the Wayback Machine have the site too:
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
HTH
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen
it mirrored.
Something I always do is to mirror a site (and make it avaiable, if
possible, on the web) if the content is interesting enough and I suspect it
can ever come offline. Some things are too valuable to be missed.
5086
days inactive
5105
days old
21 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
mloewen＠cpumagic.scol.pa.us -
oltmansg＠bellsouth.net -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
ragooman＠comcast.net -
rdawson16＠hotmail.com -
tingox＠gmail.com