5 Dec
2004
5 Dec
'04
9:25 a.m.
I have a few IBM model 5150s that I use to code entries for programming
competitions and I'd like to try to speed up the hard disk in any way possible.
(If you're curious what my last project was, check out
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13722 to download and try it out -- it
displays full-screen full-motion color video with sync'd sound -- yes, on a
4.77MHz 8088, no fooling). I've been looking for any way to speed up the hard
disk subsystem (currently WD1002 with Seagate ST225) and I simply can't get
more than 130KB/s out of the darn thing... so:
- Is there any MFM/RLL 8-bit ISA controller that can read disks at their full
1:1 interleave? If so, where can I get one? 3:1 is the best I've been able to
get using the above MFM combination. I haven't tried RLL yet because I don't
have any RLL controllers.
- If not, do such things exist as 8-bit ISA IDE controllers? I have lots of
"little" IDE drives (320MB and 540MB models) that I could hook up.
I attempted not one but TWO 8-bit Plus hardcards (both 40MB models), thinking
that the embedded drive/controller combo would be better, but my experience
with Plus Hardcards (even the 16-bit 120MB versions) is that, after about 8
years, the damn EEPROM forgets everything and it doesn't boot (no BIOS, get a
1701 "controller error"). So I couldn't get either of them to work. (As a
result I have 4 Plus hardcards that I am *this close* to throwing away, unless
someone has an idea of reviving them :-)
Any advice? Or should I just try to find an EMS board and cache my data
instead? (Speaking of which, does anyone have a LIM EMS board for sale/trade?
Can't seem to find one of those either.)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
8 Dec
8 Dec
8:45 a.m.
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Jim Leonard wrote:
I have a few IBM model 5150s that I use to code
entries for programming
competitions and I'd like to try to speed up the hard disk in any way possible.
(If you're curious what my last project was, check out
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13722 to download and try it out -- it
displays full-screen full-motion color video with sync'd sound -- yes, on a
4.77MHz 8088, no fooling). I've been looking for any way to speed up the hard
disk subsystem (currently WD1002 with Seagate ST225) and I simply can't get
more than 130KB/s out of the darn thing... so:
Hey Jim.
Are you allowed to use more modern versions of DOS (i.e. post 3.3)? If
so, why not use a version that has SmartDrive built in? Better yet, use
Speedstor or some equally capable caching utility. Or will caching not
work for your purposes?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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2:55 p.m.
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Jim Leonard wrote:
> I have a few IBM model 5150s that I use to code entries for programming
> competitions and I'd like to try to speed up the hard disk in any way possible.
> (If you're curious what my last project was, check out
> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13722 to download and try it out -- it
> displays full-screen full-motion color video with sync'd sound -- yes, on a
> 4.77MHz 8088, no fooling). I've been looking for any way to speed up the hard
> disk subsystem (currently WD1002 with Seagate ST225) and I simply can't get
> more than 130KB/s out of the darn thing... so:
Yes, there ARE some XT controllers that claim to do 1:1.
I do NOT remember WHICH ones.
Yes, there ARE some 8 bit IDE controllers,
but not all IDE drives will work with them.
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Hey Jim.
Are you allowed to use more modern versions of DOS (i.e. post 3.3)? If
so, why not use a version that has SmartDrive built in? Better yet, use
Speedstor or some equally capable caching utility. Or will caching not
work for your purposes?
SMARTDRV was bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
larger than 32M.
The DOS 6.2x version of SMARTDRV has some very important
changes that "solved the problems with DoubleSpace":
it defaults to doing read caching, but NOT write caching,
if write caching is turned on, it no longer rearranges the sequence of the
writes,
when a program ends, it will not present the DOS prompt until the write
caching buffer is flushed.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:41 p.m.
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:55:55 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too.
Once I sold two to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
On Sun, 5 Dec
2004, Jim Leonard wrote:
> I have a few IBM model 5150s that I use to code entries for programming
> competitions and I'd like to try to speed up the hard disk in any way possible.
> (If you're curious what my last project was, check out
> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13722 to download and try it out -- it
> displays full-screen full-motion color video with sync'd sound -- yes, on a
> 4.77MHz 8088, no fooling). I've been looking for any way to speed up the hard
> disk subsystem (currently WD1002 with Seagate ST225) and I simply can't get
> more than 130KB/s out of the darn thing... so:
Yes, there ARE some XT controllers that claim to do 1:1.
I do NOT remember WHICH ones.
Yes, there ARE some 8 bit IDE controllers,
but not all IDE drives will work with them.
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not
very useful.
vax, 9000
Hey Jim.
Are you allowed to use more modern versions of DOS (i.e. post 3.3)? If
so, why not use a version that has SmartDrive built in? Better yet, use
Speedstor or some equally capable caching utility. Or will caching not
work for your purposes?
SMARTDRV was bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
larger than 32M.
The DOS 6.2x version of SMARTDRV has some very important
changes that "solved the problems with DoubleSpace":
it defaults to doing read caching, but NOT write caching,
if write caching is turned on, it no longer rearranges the sequence of the
writes,
when a program ends, it will not present the DOS prompt until the write
caching buffer is flushed.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:48 p.m.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 00:41:21 -0500, 9000 VAX <vax9000(a)gmail.com> wrote:
There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too. Once I sold two
to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
I got a Trantor T-128 with my first CD-ROM drive (NCR CDR-74? - had a
double-shutter caddy)
Don't recall if it was bootable, but it was good for more than just the CD-ROM.
I also doubt it did DMA... which may or may not make it suitable for
the purpose at hand (speeding up disk access).
-ethan
3:52 p.m.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, 9000 VAX wrote:
With EMS you can have more than 640K...
SMARTDRV was
bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
larger than 32M.
XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not
very useful.
vax, 9000
Peter Wallace
9 Dec
9 Dec
7:40 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, 9000 VAX wrote:
But wouldn't a few hundred K of cache be helpful?
While it's true that XTs can not have more than 640K of REAL memory
(actually 1M minus some overhead with some hardware and software hacks),
not even HIMEM, and certainly no XMS (Extended Memory Specification),
I have had up to 8meg of "Expanded" memory on XTs.
I have a tote full of TallTree JRAM, JLASER, etc. stuff.
I don't know what the max was on the later LIM (Lotus Intel MicroSoft)
EMS (Expanded Memory Specification).
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too. Once I sold two
to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
I have a DTC 3250 (SCSI + floppy) with manual AND DRIVER DISK!, and a
Future Domain TMC-840. Both have ROMs (EPROMs?) They are available if
they will help.
(I found them a few days ago while looking for my ST-01s (another thread);
Some book or magazine had had source code for a stand-alone CD-ROM driver
using the ST-01, and I had gotten a few to play with many years ago.)
SMARTDRV was
bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
larger than 32M.
XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not
very useful. 
11 Dec
11 Dec
3:26 a.m.
New subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI (was Re: Possible to speed up I/O subsystem of 5150?)
As usual, I'm coming into this conversation late, but for those
who are interested, you can still buy Rancho RT-1000B 8-bit
ISA SCSI controllers for $15, brand new with a 90-day warranty:
http://www.hitechcafe.com/eshop/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=RT1000B-2
I used these extensively years ago, and built hundreds of Win 3.1 and
Win 95 machines with them. They are bootable, and used to include the
driver
diskette (I still have some of the diskettes -- as well as a few of the
controllers). Remarkably, I never, ever saw one fail, and they worked
with every (small) SCSI hard drive and CD-ROM I ever tried with them.
Until a couple of months ago, I was still using one with a 50MB drive in
the machine we used for a cash register in our shop.
And, now that I recall, I've done a number of data transfers from
XT clones to newer machines for customers by sticking an RT-1000B,
with a small hard drive attached, into the XT clone, xcopy-ing the data
from an ST-225, then moving the controller and the SCSI
drive to the
newer machine and reversing the process.
Later --
Glen
0/0
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Possible to speed up I/O subsystem of 5150?
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, 9000 VAX wrote:
useful.
There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too. Once I sold
two to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
I have a DTC 3250 (SCSI + floppy) with manual AND DRIVER DISK!, and a
Future Domain TMC-840. Both have ROMs (EPROMs?) They are available if
they will help.
(I found them a few days ago while looking for my ST-01s (another thread);
Some book or magazine had had source code for a stand-alone CD-ROM driver
using the ST-01, and I had gotten a few to play with many years ago.)
> > SMARTDRV was bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
> > some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
> > But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
> > larger than 32M.
> XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not very But wouldn't a few hundred K of cache be helpful?
While it's true that XTs can not have more than 640K of REAL memory
(actually 1M minus some overhead with some hardware and software hacks),
not even HIMEM, and certainly no XMS (Extended Memory Specification),
I have had up to 8meg of "Expanded" memory on XTs.
I have a tote full of TallTree JRAM, JLASER, etc. stuff.
I don't know what the max was on the later LIM (Lotus Intel MicroSoft)
EMS (Expanded Memory Specification).
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
17 Dec
17 Dec
12:42 p.m.
New subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI (was Re: Possible to speed up I/O subsystem of 5150?)
I've ordered one, thanks! I'll benchmark it to see how it performs against a
WD1002 w/ST-225.
Glen Goodwin wrote:
As usual, I'm coming into this conversation late,
but for those
who are interested, you can still buy Rancho RT-1000B 8-bit
ISA SCSI controllers for $15, brand new with a 90-day warranty:
http://www.hitechcafe.com/eshop/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=RT1000B-2
I used these extensively years ago, and built hundreds of Win 3.1 and
Win 95 machines with them. They are bootable, and used to include the
driver
diskette (I still have some of the diskettes -- as well as a few of the
controllers). Remarkably, I never, ever saw one fail, and they worked
with every (small) SCSI hard drive and CD-ROM I ever tried with them.
Until a couple of months ago, I was still using one with a 50MB drive in
the machine we used for a cash register in our shop.
And, now that I recall, I've done a number of data transfers from
XT clones to newer machines for customers by sticking an RT-1000B,
with a small hard drive attached, into the XT clone, xcopy-ing the data
from an ST-225, then moving the controller and the SCSI drive to the
newer machine and reversing the process.
Later --
Glen
0/0
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Possible to speed up I/O subsystem of 5150?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 12/15/2004
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, 9000 VAX wrote:
useful.
>But wouldn't a few hundred K of cache be helpful?
>
>While it's true that XTs can not have more than 640K of REAL memory
>(actually 1M minus some overhead with some hardware and software hacks),
>not even HIMEM, and certainly no XMS (Extended Memory Specification),
>I have had up to 8meg of "Expanded" memory on XTs.
>I have a tote full of TallTree JRAM, JLASER, etc. stuff.
>I don't know what the max was on the later LIM (Lotus Intel MicroSoft)
>EMS (Expanded Memory Specification).
>
>--
>Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
> There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too. Once I sold
two to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
I have a DTC 3250 (SCSI + floppy) with manual AND DRIVER DISK!, and a
Future Domain TMC-840. Both have ROMs (EPROMs?) They are available if
they will help.
(I found them a few days ago while looking for my ST-01s (another thread);
Some book or magazine had had source code for a stand-alone CD-ROM driver
using the ST-01, and I had gotten a few to play with many years ago.)
>>SMARTDRV was bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
>>some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
>>But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
>>larger than 32M.
>
>XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not very
6 Jan
6 Jan
9:06 a.m.
New subject: 8-bit ISA SCSI (was Re: Possible to speed up I/O subsystem of 5150?)
Got the card, but didn't come with a driver diskette. Am I going to be able to
use this controller as the only I/O in the system? (ie. I can boot off the
card's BIOS, yes?)
Jim Leonard wrote:
I've ordered one, thanks! I'll benchmark it
to see how it performs
against a WD1002 w/ST-225.
Glen Goodwin wrote:
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
As usual, I'm coming into this conversation
late, but for those
who are interested, you can still buy Rancho RT-1000B 8-bit
ISA SCSI controllers for $15, brand new with a 90-day warranty:
http://www.hitechcafe.com/eshop/product.asp?dept_id=4&sku=RT1000B-2
I used these extensively years ago, and built hundreds of Win 3.1 and
Win 95 machines with them. They are bootable, and used to include the
driver
diskette (I still have some of the diskettes -- as well as a few of the
controllers). Remarkably, I never, ever saw one fail, and they worked
with every (small) SCSI hard drive and CD-ROM I ever tried with them.
Until a couple of months ago, I was still using one with a 50MB drive in
the machine we used for a cash register in our shop.
And, now that I recall, I've done a number of data transfers from
XT clones to newer machines for customers by sticking an RT-1000B,
with a small hard drive attached, into the XT clone, xcopy-ing the data
from an ST-225, then moving the controller and the SCSI drive to the
newer machine and reversing the process.
Later --
Glen
0/0
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Possible to speed up I/O subsystem of 5150?
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, 9000 VAX wrote:
useful.
> But wouldn't a few hundred K of cache be helpful?
>
> While it's true that XTs can not have more than 640K of REAL memory
> (actually 1M minus some overhead with some hardware and software hacks),
> not even HIMEM, and certainly no XMS (Extended Memory Specification),
> I have had up to 8meg of "Expanded" memory on XTs.
> I have a tote full of TallTree JRAM, JLASER, etc. stuff.
> I don't know what the max was on the later LIM (Lotus Intel MicroSoft)
> EMS (Expanded Memory Specification).
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
> There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too. Once I sold
two to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
I have a DTC 3250 (SCSI + floppy) with manual AND DRIVER DISK!, and a
Future Domain TMC-840. Both have ROMs (EPROMs?) They are available if
they will help.
(I found them a few days ago while looking for my ST-01s (another
thread);
Some book or magazine had had source code for a stand-alone CD-ROM
driver
using the ST-01, and I had gotten a few to play with many years ago.)
>> SMARTDRV was bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
>> some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
>> But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
>> larger than 32M.
>
>
> XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not very
15 Dec
15 Dec
4:29 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
I have a DTC 3250 (SCSI + floppy) with manual AND
DRIVER DISK!, and a
Future Domain TMC-840. Both have ROMs (EPROMs?) They are available if
they will help.
...
I have had up to 8meg of "Expanded" memory on XTs.
I have a tote full of TallTree JRAM, JLASER, etc. stuff.
I don't know what the max was on the later LIM (Lotus Intel MicroSoft)
EMS (Expanded Memory Specification).
Fred, I would love to experiment with these to see if I can get my animation
rate up to 60Hz (currently 30Hz with some buffering) on my 5150. Please email
me off-list to discuss terms. I have SCSI disk so that's an option; I would
also love to experiment with EMS (I wrote EMS routines many moons ago so I know
how the boards work).
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 12/15/2004
9 Dec
9 Dec
4:33 p.m.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 00:41:21 -0500, you wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:55:55 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
There are 8 bit SCSI controllers too.
Once I sold two to one guy for
$10. Both used NCR 53c90, both had ROM and were bootable.
True, but sometimes 640K is more than enough. I used to run a WWIV
BBS (the version 3 that was distributed only as Turbo Pascal source
code). It would run quite well in about 128K on a PC-XT clone. It
had a rather horrendous design, though, with each message posted by a
user being a discrete file in one horrendous big directory on the
drive. It made a ton of noise and was quite slow at scrolling through
the messages. I loaded in a big fat cache (about 300K,) using a TSR
made by Central Point Software, that ran in low DOS memory. It made
the machine run quite well for a single-user BBS. After a fresh boot,
it would rattle and whoosh the 5 meg hard drive for a bit as callers
ran through the message base, but then eventually settle down and run
almost entirely out of RAM, except for disk writes.
640K WAS enough for that application (ducks).
On Sun, 5
Dec 2004, Jim Leonard wrote:
> I have a few IBM model 5150s that I use to code entries for programming
> competitions and I'd like to try to speed up the hard disk in any way possible.
> (If you're curious what my last project was, check out
> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13722 to download and try it out -- it
> displays full-screen full-motion color video with sync'd sound -- yes, on a
> 4.77MHz 8088, no fooling). I've been looking for any way to speed up the hard
> disk subsystem (currently WD1002 with Seagate ST225) and I simply can't get
> more than 130KB/s out of the darn thing... so:
Yes, there ARE some XT controllers that claim to do 1:1.
I do NOT remember WHICH ones.
Yes, there ARE some 8 bit IDE controllers,
but not all IDE drives will work with them.
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not
very useful.
Hey Jim.
Are you allowed to use more modern versions of DOS (i.e. post 3.3)? If
so, why not use a version that has SmartDrive built in? Better yet, use
Speedstor or some equally capable caching utility. Or will caching not
work for your purposes?
SMARTDRV was bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
larger than 32M. vax, 9000
>
> The DOS 6.2x version of SMARTDRV has some very important
> changes that "solved the problems with DoubleSpace":
> it defaults to doing read caching, but NOT write caching,
> if write caching is turned on, it no longer rearranges the sequence of the
> writes,
> when a program ends, it will not present the DOS prompt until the write
> caching buffer is flushed.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
>
9 Dec
9 Dec
8:54 p.m.
Am 9 Dec 2004 0:41 meinte 9000 VAX:
I may have to disagree. Without EMS, XTs don't have more than
992K of RAM. At least my XT systems did usualy offer at least
704K of continous RAM plus whatever was possible between the
cards. The 704K where supported by default, while for the mem
inbetween a little programm at startup to relink the memory
had to run. works fine wit ANY dos version.
If you had a VGA in your XT (8 Bit VGA was available), some
736K (708 as largest chunk) where possible without any addon
memory card, if you restricted yourself to colour (or 704+32K
when using Monocrome :)
And speaking of cache utils, there where quite some available
for DOS, that could run on XTs - all you had to do is give up
main mem :)
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Vintage Computer Festival
wrote:
> > Hey Jim.
> > Are you allowed to use more modern versions of DOS (i.e. post 3.3)? If
> > so, why not use a version that has SmartDrive built in? Better yet, use
> > Speedstor or some equally capable caching utility. Or will caching not
> > work for your purposes?
SMARTDRV was
bundled with Windoze 3.10, and will work with
some of the <3.30 DOS versions.
But you need to use 3.31 or newer to have any partitions
larger than 32M.
XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus SMARTDRV is not
very useful.
15 Dec
15 Dec
4:35 p.m.
Hans Franke wrote:
I may have to disagree. Without EMS, XTs don't
have more than
992K of RAM. At least my XT systems did usualy offer at least
704K of continous RAM plus whatever was possible between the
You must have had a clone where system RAM and video RAM shared space, like a
Tandy 1000 or Amstrad. Regular IBM 5150 had usuable memory for the first 640K,
and then you could "use" the video RAM on a Hercules or CGA card if you were in
text mode and only using one page, but that was it.
cards. The 704K where supported by default, while for
the mem
inbetween a little programm at startup to relink the memory
had to run. works fine wit ANY dos version.
Only on your hardware :)
If you had a VGA in your XT (8 Bit VGA was available),
some
736K (708 as largest chunk) where possible without any addon
memory card, if you restricted yourself to colour (or 704+32K
when using Monocrome :)
Now I think you're confusing XTs with 386s -- Once the 386 was out, you could
remap how memory was laid out. I remember getting 736K of DOS RAM using
Quarterdeck's QEMM on my 386/16 with a VGA card... but that wasn't possible on
an XT.
And speaking of cache utils, there where quite some
available
for DOS, that could run on XTs - all you had to do is give up
main mem :)
Yep, tried that too :-)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 12/15/2004
4:26 p.m.
9000 VAX wrote:
XT's do not have more than 640K memory, thus
SMARTDRV is not very useful.
Moreso, I am streaming continuously off of disk in my application, so caching
provides no benefit whatsoever (data is read only once, not re-read lots of times).
I could really use an EMS board, though -- I could pre-load my data into it...
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
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9 Dec
9 Dec
4:52 a.m.
Fred wrote:
Yes, there ARE some 8 bit IDE controllers,
but not all IDE drives will work with them.
To a first approximation, *NO* IDE drives will work with them.
8-bit support is not part of the official ATA specification. Even
back when 8-bit IDE adapters were being sold, not many drives worked
with them, and as soon as the adapters disappeared the drive makers
that had bothered to support them stopped doing so.
Eric
15 Dec
15 Dec
4:23 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Are you allowed to use more modern versions of DOS
(i.e. post 3.3)? If
so, why not use a version that has SmartDrive built in? Better yet, use
Speedstor or some equally capable caching utility. Or will caching not
work for your purposes?
Yes, MS-DOS 6.22 is on there, but SMARTDRV requires XMS and my 5150 is the
original 8088 (no XMS possible on an 8088 unless you have an EMS memory board
and PC DOS 7.x or higher and a hacked driver).
Interesting note: A 4.77MHz machine is so slow that I could actually benchmark
that disk accessess were faster in 6.22 over 3.3. A 2-minute test completed 3
seconds faster under 6.22, so even though it takes up more RAM that my program
was using to cache manually, I kept it.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
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9:36 a.m.
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Jim Leonard wrote:
I have a few IBM model 5150s that I use to code
entries for programming
competitions and I'd like to try to speed up the hard disk in any way
possible. (If you're curious what my last project was, check out
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13722 to download and try it out -- it
displays full-screen full-motion color video with sync'd sound -- yes, on a
4.77MHz 8088, no fooling). I've been looking for any way to speed up the hard
disk subsystem (currently WD1002 with Seagate ST225) and I simply can't get
more than 130KB/s out of the darn thing... so:
- Is there any MFM/RLL 8-bit ISA controller that can read disks at their full
1:1 interleave? If so, where can I get one? 3:1 is the best I've been able
to get using the above MFM combination. I haven't tried RLL yet because I
don't have any RLL controllers.
IIRC, the 4.77Mhz PC bus is not fast enough to handle 1:1 interleave with
8 bit transfers - but, it's been a few years.
I do know that 16-bit ESDI controllers handled 1:1, but that doesn't help
on an original PC.
- If not, do such things exist as 8-bit ISA IDE
controllers? I have lots of
"little" IDE drives (320MB and 540MB models) that I could hook up.
There actually were 8-bit IDE controllers, but I don't think they're all
that common.
Steve
10:45 a.m.
There was one 8-bit ISA hard disk controller card for the IBM PC or XT
that would do a 1:1 interleave, from Patterson Labs. Don't know how they
did it, but they worked. They were always unusual, probably impossible to
find today, but Google it.
RLL was way too fast for the PC/XT bus at 1:1 interleave, but there was
at least one 8-bit controller from Seagate that worked with only one 30 MB
IDE drive. I don't remember the numbers. They would work with a higher
interleave, 3 or 4 sounds about right.
Spinrite is great for setting the optimum interleave on any of these.
The original Western Digital full-length controller was slowest of all,
so anything you replace it with is almost sure to be faster. I think it was
an interleave of 5.
Plus HardCards are not bad, and turn up occasionally on eBay. You need
the floppy disk that goes with them for installation. I can dig out a copy
if needed.
Paul Pennington
Augusta, Georgia
11:25 a.m.
On Wednesday 15 December 2004 19:45, Paul A. Pennington wrote:
There was one 8-bit ISA hard disk controller card
for the IBM PC
or XT that would do a 1:1 interleave, from Patterson Labs. Don't
know how they did it, but they worked. They were always unusual,
probably impossible to find today, but Google it.
RLL was way too fast for the PC/XT bus at 1:1 interleave, but
there was at least one 8-bit controller from Seagate that worked with
only one 30 MB IDE drive. I don't remember the numbers. They would
work with a higher interleave, 3 or 4 sounds about right.
<snip>
Why not just get a SCSI controller? Surely you can get an AHA-1542 or
something to work on an 8-bit bus, and it'll probably have better
performance (and easier to find disks) than any IDE or MFM/RLL (ST-506)
controller for the era.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
1:27 p.m.
Patrick said:
Why not just get a SCSI controller?
Not an option for me -- I don't know anything about SCSI -- never owned
one.
"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a
nail."
What kind of interleave performance could you get with an 8-bit SCSI
controller?
Paul Pennington
Augusta, Georgia
2:31 p.m.
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:27:35 -0500, Paul A. Pennington
<paulpenn(a)knology.net> wrote:
What kind of interleave performance could you get
with an 8-bit SCSI
controller?
You don't format SCSI drives for different interleaves, unless you
happen to be fiddling with, say, an Adaptec bridge controller with an
MFM or RLL drive on the other side.
What you _do_ get, is the ability to use modernish drives (subject to
capacity limitations of your controller BIOS, esp. in the case of an
AHA1542A) that may have hundreds of K or a few megabytes of on-disk
buffering. With those drives, your application asks for a block, and
the drive itself reads-ahead so the next few blocks are delivered from
the on-disk RAM cache... relieving you from the need to worry about
interleave.
Do you have a good grasp of why older machines had to worry about
interleave in the first place? The controller read and converted
analog signals in real-time, no track buffering. Controllers that are
not analog in nature allow the drive to do whatever it likes, since
the controller is just going to ask for a block whenever the drive
gets around to it. This is not to say that the drive doesn't have an
interleave (older ones might), but it does take the need to interact
with the drive surface away from your list of concerns. The reason
for different values (1:1, 5:1...) have to do with how fast the disk
rotates and how long it takes for the host to be ready to slurp up the
next sector. If your controller or host machine isn't fast enough,
you might as well use a huge interleave to save a full rotation
waiting for that block to come around again. Obviously, the ideal
situation is 1:1 interleave - one rotation means you can slurp up an
entire track without other delays. I don't recall this being a common
situation until the days of the AT. I remember 1:3 to 1:5 interleaves
being ordinary in the hey-day of the 8-bit PC and XT.
So... back to what the orginal poster said, if you can find a
DMA-capable 8-bit SCSI controller and a modernish drive (4GB and newer
would have much larger disk caches than you have physical memory), you
might be able to severerly reduce rotational delay (and seek time as a
consequence of using newer drives than, say, an ST225 w/65 ms average
seeks) enough to make a difference.
-ethan
16 Dec
16 Dec
1:05 a.m.
At 10:31 PM 12/15/2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
So... back to what the orginal poster said, if you can
find a
DMA-capable 8-bit SCSI controller and a modernish drive (4GB and newer
would have much larger disk caches than you have physical memory), you
might be able to severerly reduce rotational delay (and seek time as a
consequence of using newer drives than, say, an ST225 w/65 ms average
seeks) enough to make a difference.
I think we can all see how classic computing and emulation will
continue to flourish in the future, hand in hand. As old functioning
drives decay into Unobtainium, or worse yet along the way climb back
up the price curve from yesterday's "too small, take it off my hands"
near-zero price to the exact-replacement near-former-retail or worse
prices, we'll need more emulation hardware and software. Many forms
of RAM (non-volatile or not) are nearly free now, in sizes larger
than old hard drives. We just need the building blocks to interconnect
them to older devices.
- John
6 Jan
6 Jan
9:44 a.m.
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
I believe the AHA-1542 (and B, C, and CF) were all 16-bit boards, whereas I'm
trying to increase the I/O of an 8-bit IBM 5150...
--
Jim Leonard (trixter(a)oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
There was
one 8-bit ISA hard disk controller card for the IBM PC
or XT that would do a 1:1 interleave, from Patterson Labs. Don't
know how they did it, but they worked. They were always unusual,
probably impossible to find today, but Google it.
RLL was way too fast for the PC/XT bus at 1:1 interleave, but
there was at least one 8-bit controller from Seagate that worked with
only one 30 MB IDE drive. I don't remember the numbers. They would
work with a higher interleave, 3 or 4 sounds about right.
Why not just get a SCSI controller? Surely you can get an AHA-1542 or
something to work on an 8-bit bus, and it'll probably have better
performance (and easier to find disks) than any IDE or MFM/RLL (ST-506)
controller for the era.
7 Jan
7 Jan
2:19 a.m.
On Thursday 06 January 2005 18:44, Jim Leonard wrote:
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
I believe the AHA-1542 (and B, C, and CF) were all 16-bit boards,
whereas I'm trying to increase the I/O of an 8-bit IBM 5150...
Well, I've had good luck with using 16-bit cards (mostly VGA) in 8-bit
machines (mostly 5150s and 5160s). You could try it out; it might
actually work just fine.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
There
was one 8-bit ISA hard disk controller card for the IBM
PC or XT that would do a 1:1 interleave, from Patterson Labs.
Don't know how they did it, but they worked. They were always
unusual, probably impossible to find today, but Google it.
RLL was way too fast for the PC/XT bus at 1:1 interleave, but
there was at least one 8-bit controller from Seagate that worked
with only one 30 MB IDE drive. I don't remember the numbers.
They would work with a higher interleave, 3 or 4 sounds about
right.
Why not just get a SCSI controller? Surely you can get an AHA-1542
or something to work on an 8-bit bus, and it'll probably have
better performance (and easier to find disks) than any IDE or
MFM/RLL (ST-506) controller for the era.
7241
days inactive
7274
days old
25 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
acme＠gbronline.com -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
Hans.Franke＠siemens.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
paulpenn＠knology.net -
pcw＠mesanet.com -
shirsch＠adelphia.net -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
vax9000＠gmail.com -
vcf＠siconic.com