3 Jun
2004
3 Jun
'04
9:03 a.m.
Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a Professional 380
turned into a VAX console:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=57…
No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type box. Is
anybody going to die and go to heaven because one is available?
Must.. refrain... fromacquiring... more... stuff... spock, turn off ebay!
Jeff
3 Jun
3 Jun
9:09 a.m.
Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a
Professional 380
turned into a VAX console:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=57…
No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type box. Is
anybody going to die and go to heaven because one is available?
Must.. refrain... fromacquiring... more... stuff... spock, turn off ebay!
If the VAX console is a PC-380, it should be a Pro380. As you say, it's
basically a PDP-11/73 (of course minus the Q-Bus, and a little slower). I
don't know that Pro380's are that rare. On the down side it seems to be
missing the monitor, monitor cable, keyboard (just an LK201), and HD. So
the real problem is the lack of monitor and cable unless you already have
one. It can probably use one from a DECmate II or III, and a couple other
boxes. I think it can take an RD50/51/52 or RD53 for a HD (I always
recommend avoiding RD53's).
Zane
11:10 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:09:16PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe
is a Professional 380
> turned into a VAX console:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=57…
Yep.
I think it can take an RD50/51/52 or RD53 for a HD (I
always recommend avoiding RD53's).
Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those are abundant,
and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Jun-2004 23:00 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -97.5 F (-72.0 C) Windchill -137.3 F (-94.09 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 8.80 kts Grid 069 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
1:43 p.m.
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks
<dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
> I think it can take an RD50/51/52 or RD53 for a HD
(I always
> recommend avoiding RD53's).
Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those
Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS.
There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and
RD51. Be careful...
paul
3:15 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
Ah... didn't know that... would it have shipped with the PRO380, though?
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:10 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.5 F (-65.3 C) Windchill -108.4 F (-78 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 3.6 kts Grid 077 Barometer 660.8 mb (11359. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those
Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS.
There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and
RD51. Be careful... 
3:39 p.m.
Ethan Dicks declared on Thursday 03 June 2004 10:15 pm:
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Paul Koning
wrote:
Ah... didn't know that... would it have shipped with the PRO380,
though?
I doubt it would have shipped with anything other than the PRO325/350.
Also, considering the machine was a vax console machine, it would have
been towards the end of the production life of PROs.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those
Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS.
There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and
RD51. Be careful...
4 Jun
4 Jun
3:36 a.m.
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks
<dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
Ethan> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
>> >>>>
"Ethan" == Ethan Dicks <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
Ethan>
Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those
Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS.
> There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only
supports RD50 and
> RD51. Be careful...
Ethan> Ah... didn't know that... would it have shipped with the
Ethan> PRO380, though?
Quite possibly if the system was configured with the older drives.
I just realized I may be misremembering the details -- it may be that
you need the new controller for RD53 and up -- and RD50 through RD52
work with both.
I do remember that I had to upgrade my PRO disk controller when I
upgraded the drive. It probably was RD52 to RD53 -- it's been a
while...
paul
3 Jun
3 Jun
9:12 a.m.
>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Davis
<jdaviscctalk(a)soupwizard.com> writes:
Jeff> Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a
Jeff> Professional 380 turned into a VAX console:
Jeff>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=57…
Jeff> No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type
Jeff> box.
I don't know if it's rare, either.
It has essentially nothing in common with an 11/73. It's a 10 MHz
J-11 processor, with a bizarre bus it shares with the Pro-350 and
Pro-325 (and nothing else). It has its own peripherals that have no
relationship to any other PDP11 peripherals.
P/OS is the original OS for these -- that's RSX11 hacked up with a
primitive GUI. RT11 runs on it, I believe, as do some versions of
Unix. RSTS has been modified to run on one, but that version isn't
generally available...
There's a detailed manual on bitsavers.org.
I don't know what makes it a console. Presumably some interface into
the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue.
paul
1:21 p.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
I have one of these. The VAX Console interface is kind of interesting.
It is called the Real Time Interface, option PC3XX-AA, and includes two
RS-232 ports, a number of discrete I/O lines, and an IEEE-488 bus. The
VAX was attached to a 62-pin D-shell connector, according to a scan I
have http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp11/Pro380_RTI.pdf Looks like it would
have been perfect for use in a lab for driving test equipment.
The technical manuals are on bitsavers. I don't think the RTI is
documented there though. Look at
http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm for the VAX 8500
maintenance manual. I think the RTI registers are documented there. I
looked this all up one time because I was going to connect my PRO380 to
an IEEE-488 oscilloscope. I have not gotten to it yet.
You really need the keyboard and display to make it work. A terminal can
be connected to the printer port and used with ODT, but that is about
it, at least with P/OS, I am not sure about RT-11. The monochrome video
is NTSC, so a simple TV monitor will work. I had to dig out an old
TRS-80 Model I display to make it work.
-chuck
I don't
know what makes it a console. Presumably some interface into
the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue.
Two things, one is the interface board (which ISTR can be hacked for other
more interesting uses), and the second is the VAX Console software.
Zane
3:11 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:21:56PM -0400, Charles H. Dickman wrote:
I have one of
these. The VAX Console interface is kind of interesting.
It is called the Real Time Interface, option PC3XX-AA, and includes two
RS-232 ports, a number of discrete I/O lines, and an IEEE-488 bus. The
VAX was attached to a 62-pin D-shell connector, according to a scan I
have http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp11/Pro380_RTI.pdf Looks like it would
have been perfect for use in a lab for driving test equipment.
That's why I want to play with one again - I have a variety of IEEE-488
devices, mostly C=, but a little HP and Tek.
I don't know what makes it a console. Presumably
some interface into
the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue.
You really need the keyboard and display to make it
work. A terminal can
be connected to the printer port and used with ODT, but that is about
it, at least with P/OS, I am not sure about RT-11. The monochrome video
is NTSC, so a simple TV monitor will work. I had to dig out an old
TRS-80 Model I display to make it work.
Are VR201s really that hard to find? Certainly LK201s aren't.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:00 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86.2 F (-65.7 C) Windchill -110.1 F (-79 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 3.9 kts Grid 057 Barometer 660.7 mb (11364 ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
4 Jun
4 Jun
3:31 a.m.
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks
<dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
> You really need the keyboard and display to make
it work. A
> terminal can be connected to the printer port and used with ODT,
> but that is about it, at least with P/OS, I am not sure about
> RT-11. The monochrome video is NTSC, so a simple TV monitor will
> work. I had to dig out an old TRS-80 Model I display to make it
> work.
Ethan> Are VR201s really that hard to find? Certainly LK201s aren't.
It seems reasonable; LK201s were used with all the 200 series
terminals... but VR201s only go with the Pro/DECmate/Rainbow.
Fortunately, a substitute for a VR201 is trivial (unlike a substitute
for an LK201 -- certainly doable but it would take some work).
paul
3 Jun
3 Jun
10:43 a.m.
On Thursday 03 June 2004 16:03, Jeff Davis wrote:
Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a
Professional
380 turned into a VAX console:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=57…
711003&rd=1
No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type box.
Is anybody going to die and go to heaven because one is available?
Must.. refrain... fromacquiring... more... stuff... spock, turn off
ebay!
I see them on ebay once every few weeks it seems. Not all that rare.
In fact, this same seller has sold a few on ebay in the past.
It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably lacks
the VAX console software as well then.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
11:33 a.m.
It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive,
as it probably lacks
the VAX console software as well then.
Pat
Are you actually needing the VAX console software? From what I've seen it's
not good for anything other than being a VAX Console. A Pro380 would be
much more interesting with P/OS, RT-11, or even Unix.
Zane
12:11 p.m.
On Thursday 03 June 2004 18:33, Zane H. Healy wrote:
No, but I'm willing to bet someone's VAX 8800 is! P/OS is kinda
interesting, but not horribly interesting. RT-11 or Venix/2.11BSD
would be more interesting to play with. Of course, the CTI bus limits
what you can really do with it vs. a QBUS/UNIBUS machine.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
It's kinda
annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably
lacks the VAX console software as well then.
Pat
Are you actually needing the VAX console software? From what I've
seen it's not good for anything other than being a VAX Console. A
Pro380 would be much more interesting with P/OS, RT-11, or even Unix.
12:36 p.m.
No, but I'm willing to bet someone's VAX 8800
is!
I'm guessing that most people with have a VAX that needs one of these
consoles actually have one. Mine came from a scrapper, and he'd already
gutted the VAX.
P/OS is kinda
interesting, but not horribly interesting. RT-11 or Venix/2.11BSD
would be more interesting to play with. Of course, the CTI bus limits
what you can really do with it vs. a QBUS/UNIBUS machine.
On a Pro380 the OS that I'd find the most interesting would be P/OS for the
simple fact it only runs there :^) Venix falls into the same catagory, but
I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC HW.
Zane
1:18 p.m.
On Thursday 03 June 2004 19:36, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Venix falls into the same
catagory, but I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC
HW.
Shh! Don't let Michael Sokolov hear you!
Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at
some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;)
Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but that's not real
Unix (or on-topic by age).
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
1:49 p.m.
catagory, but
I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC
HW.
Shh! Don't let Michael Sokolov hear you! Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet,
but would like to at
some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;)
I've considered running Unix on a PDP-11, but have never gotten around to
it. Last time I tried to get 2.11BSD up and running it didn't like my
Viking disk controller, though that bug has since been fixed.
Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but
that's not real
Unix (or on-topic by age).
Actually unless I'm mistaken Linux on Alpha's is now ontopic, or if it
isn't, it is sure getting close. Linux itself has been ontopic for almost
three years.
Alphas also do quite well at running BSD, I ran OpenBSD on one of mine for a
few years. Though I've now downgraded that system to a Sparc 5/110.
I really hate to see systems that can run VMS wasted running Unix.
Zane
5 Jun
5 Jun
10:16 p.m.
> I really hate to see systems that can run VMS
wasted running Unix.
dittman(a)dittman.net (Eric Dittman) writes:
I agree with you completely, Zane.
But you could have a dual-boot system,
which allows you to issue commands like
# wall
System rebooting to VMS in ten minutes.
Please adjust your files accordingly.
^d
I used to run an turist vax system on orphaned hw in a uni machine
room; I and the other sysadmin discussed (but never got round to)
having it alternate days between OS', just to keep our users on their
toes.
One of the disks (an RA80 or 81) eventually had the central bearing
go; the noise was so awful that it was a couple of days before anyone
would go into that machine room to spin the sucker down. I still have
one of the platters; they have a neat circle about half an inch wide
in the middle of the media that is scoured down to the aluminum.
--akb, still waiting for the reinvention of the versioning file system
and the standardized stacking error facility
3 Jun
3 Jun
3:19 p.m.
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Actually unless I'm mistaken Linux on Alpha's
is now ontopic, or if it
isn't, it is sure getting close. Linux itself has been ontopic for almost
So is Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.11.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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3:27 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:49:23PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
I really hate to see systems that can run VMS wasted
running Unix.
I can appreciate the sentiment, but at one point, historically, a VAX
running some variant of BSD was the touchstone of compatibility if you
were writing stuff for UNIX (cf. the "All The World's a VAX" syndrome
in C programming for a long time).
Of course, if you want to run old apps (or games like Larn), any modern
UNIXy platform will run the app.
I still have a killer app for UNIX on a MASSBUS machine - music played
on a TU78. I never got the chance to run the program on our big 11/750
(it ran VMS only, as our departmental mail/word processing/development
machine), and our little 11/750 didn't have a MASSBUS card in any of the
MASSBUS slots (just a second Unibus and/or an SI9900 controller).
I've always wanted to hear that tape drive "sing".
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.3 F (-65.2 C) Windchill -109.1 F (-78.40 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 3.9 kts Grid 078 Barometer 660.7 mb (11364 ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
2:50 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 08:18:33PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Thursday 03 June 2004 19:36, Zane H. Healy wrote:
My interest is closing the circle on an old project... I ran 2.9BSD on
a real 11/24, 17+ years ago, but two RL02s is not enough space to do a
lot, including load all the sources and rebuild the kernel. It wasn't
my first UNIX experience, by far, but it was my first UNIX experience
on my own hardware ($300 for the CPU, several hundred dollars more for
an RL11, KT24, memory cards, etc.)
...I don't have any real interest in running
Unix on DEC HW.
Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at
some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a
VAX. ;)
Well... when I got my start, we ran both VMS (3.6) and 4BSD on VAX-11/750s
and 11/730s (then, later, VMS 4.x and Ultrix-32)... I see the smiley, but
I have to chime in that back in the day, you ran into both, depending on
what circles you travelled in.
Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but
that's not real
Unix (or on-topic by age).
And Alphas are pretty nice at running VMS, presuming you have wads and
wads of physical memory. I had a good time babysitting the Alpha cluster
at H&R Block before coming back to the Ice. It was fun to be using VMS
on a daily basis again.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 02:40 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.0 F (-66.2 C) Windchill -112.8 F (-80.40 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 4.3 kts Grid 079 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
2:57 p.m.
And Alphas are pretty nice at running VMS, presuming
you have wads and
wads of physical memory. I had a good time babysitting the Alpha cluster
at H&R Block before coming back to the Ice. It was fun to be using VMS
on a daily basis again.
Depending on what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous
amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
3:11 p.m.
Depending on what you are doing you don't
necessarily need an enormous
amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS.
In part it depends on how you define "Enormous Amounts", based on my
experience the minimum to run OpenVMS on Alpha is 112MB, and on a VAX that
would be an "Enormous Amount". Of course my main system is currently
running with 640MB RAM and sitting at 42% used.
Zane
3:37 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 08:11:54PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Exactly... I used to run production stuff on an 11/750 w/8MB and a uVAX-II
w/16 MB (VMS 4.x and VMS 5.x). At home, my "largest" VAX is an 8300 with
about 18MB, running VMS 6.x.
Now I know that VMS 6 and up have larger memory requirements, but I can't
imagine an Alpha OpenVMS machine with less than 128MB being useful, unlike
a VAX. I still like the Alpha, but it gobbles RAM chips for breakfast.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:30 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-65.0 C) Windchill -108.2 F (-77.90 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 3.7 kts Grid 077 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
Depending on
what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous
amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS.
In part it depends on how you define "Enormous Amounts", based on my
experience the minimum to run OpenVMS on Alpha is 112MB, and on a VAX that
would be an "Enormous Amount". Of course my main system is currently
running with 640MB RAM and sitting at 42% used.
3:55 p.m.
Depending on
what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous
amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS.
In part it depends on how you define "Enormous Amounts", based on my
experience the minimum to run OpenVMS on Alpha is 112MB, and on a VAX that
would be an "Enormous Amount". Of course my main system is currently
running with 640MB RAM and sitting at 42% used. 
6 Jun
6 Jun
9:04 a.m.
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Shh! Don't let Michael Sokolov hear you!
Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at
some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;)
Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but that's not real
Unix (or on-topic by age).
All my PDP-11's run UNIX of some sort; most run
Ultrix-11 (of
course), some 2.11BSD, and the rest runs 2.9BSD.
--f
3 Jun
3 Jun
2:30 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 07:11:26PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Thursday 03 June 2004 18:33, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably
> > lacks the VAX console software as well then.
Well... I've got a bid on it because my own Pro380/former-console has
a dead PSU and I traded away the console board long ago. Plus, Pittsburgh
is close to Columbus, so shipping will be cheap.
Before I left, I was working on my Pro boxes to a) up the memory (replacing
4164s with 41256s) and b) getting all the goodies together for a 2BSD rig.
When the PSU died, I put it on the shelf and went back to packing.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 02:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.7 F (-66.5 C) Windchill -112.3 F (-80.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 4 kts Grid 077 Barometer 661 mb (11351. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
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28 comments
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akb+lists.cctech＠imap1.mirror.to -
chd_1＠nktelco.net -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
dittman＠dittman.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jdaviscctalk＠soupwizard.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl