On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: Older TV, the only input is a cable connector. Can't do it. VCR only accepts cable on RF In, and all I have to convert the Timex' output is an old video-game input switch with spade & screw output. Looks like a Radio Shack run tomorrow, so let me make certain I know what I need. Sounds like something that will switch between CATV input and the RF Channel 2 input from the Timex? I might see if Goodwill has a $5 B&W TV instead.... Doc

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"motorola" instead of "RCA" "VHS" instead of "VHF" Some days, I shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard. Thanks, Tony, for catching my screwups.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 11:27:20PM -0500, Doc wrote: btw if you need or know of anybody else here in town that does, I have an Amiga 1080 color composite monitor w/sound taking up space.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill(a)mrbill.net Austin, TX

This has always been an area of confusion for me. Can someone recommend a good reading that will explain video as far as composite vs. RF and modulation and all that? Would Don Lancaster's Video Cookbook have what I want? Web articles would be preferred. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

Sellam Ismail wrote: Okay, composite video is the complex waveform that defines NTSC as found in any television station. It includes horizontal & vertical sync pluses, and if it is color, it also has a burst flag and subcarrier information that is a phase modulated 3.579545 signal, all interwoven. YOu can easily see this on any good oscilloscope. Bandwidth is usually about a few cycles to about 4 mHz, sometimes higher. This is usually fed through 75 ohm coax and BNC connectors (really old stuff uses UHF/PL259s). Consumer home gear uses RCA/phono connectors as a rule, although other connectors are sometimes used. The RF modulated signal is a carrier signal on a standard TV channel, usually Chs 2-4, that has the video modulating it AM style, and the audio sound is FM modulated 4.5 mHz higher in frequency. Commercial TV uses vestigial sideband transmission, where the lower sideband is partially removed with filtering and amplifier tuning to conserve bandwith. The common RF modulators used with game consoles, etc. does not have this filtering, but relys on the tv set to filter that out in the front end. In rare cases it can affect the signal/picture quality. RF also is fed through 75 ohm coax, but 300 ohm twinlead used to be the norm. F connectors are as a rule used for anything RF, but phono connectors are quite often used as they are in stock and cheap as well. Hope that clears up any questions out there. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO

Dave Woodman wrote: Thanks for pointing that out! Just to add a bit of technical info, in the PAL-I system, as used in the UK, the composite video is inverted before being amplitude modulated onto the carrier. That means that the sync pules are peaks of high-amplitude radio signal and bright areas of the image are low-amplitude signals. The reason for this is to reduce the average RF power required at the transmitter. Quite a clever idea, really. Our sound sub-carrier is at 6MHz from the main vision carrier, FM modulated. The PAL colour subcarrier is at about 4.43Mhz. The radio channels used for broadcast TV are in the UHF band, and typical 1980s modulators were tuned to Channel 36. -- John Honniball coredump(a)gifford.co.uk

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Dave Woodman wrote: OK, if "NTSC" = "Never Twice the Same Color" and "PAL" = "Picture always Lousy" then what is "SECAM"?

Hi, "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> said: SEquential Couleur a Memoire or System Essentially Contrary to American Method ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

Hi, Dave Woodman <dave(a)naffnet.org.uk> said: The other way about ;-) Interference on PAL produces unobtrusive black blobs as opposed to annoying "snow". -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

Dave Woodman wrote: Old technology? Does that mean there's some newer version of the standard PAL delay line that I wasn't previously aware of? I thought all PAL sets (and video recorders?) used a glass delay line in this manner. -- John Honniball coredump(a)gifford.co.uk

Does anyone have a recommended place to order stuff such as Resistors and TTL from on the net? I was at the local large seller of such stuff on Saturday and half the stuff I wanted they were out of. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

I've had bad luck with mouser... I called and ordered a DC-DC converter in an 8 pin DIP, next day delivery, and received 7805's instead (plus the rest of my order). I called and was told the replacements would "be shipped out today". I called the two days later and was told the same thing, the third time I called I was told they had already shipped out. They arrived, UPS ground, free of charge, but they were STILL 7805's.... I called and bitched again until I got someone who understood the difference between a 3 pin TO3 and an 8 pin DIP, (are you SURE it isn't a compatible part?), got her to right down an alternate part number (the 'A' version versus the 'B' version, tighter specs), and what was NOT an acceptable alternative... The 'A' version arrived about a week later, again shipped UPS ground, no refund on the next day shipping. YMMV, Clint On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote:

"Zane H. Healy" wrote: I've always had good results with Farnell: http://www.farnell.com/ And then there's RS Components, but I don't think they deliver to the USA: http://rswww.com -- John Honniball coredump(a)gifford.co.uk

Another VERY IMPORTANT feature is that they don't insist on using UPS. They'll ship things via USPS, which may make it reasonable to order a small lot of parts. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" <vaxman(a)earthlink.net> To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 5:49 PM Subject: Re: Source for components on Internet?

Over three years ago I posted an article (below) to sci.electronics. design detailing my experiences and impressions. Since then, they've all improved, but Digikey remains the all-around best. They've done an excellent job of expanding their passive component lineup over the past couple of years and they still stock both TI and Fairchild TTL. Tim. From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Buying components on-line - my experiences Date: 1999/02/24 Message-ID: <36D3FE51.32DE1F02(a)trailing-edge.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.components,misc.industry.ele ctronics.marketplace Many of the big-name distributors have, in the past few years, added on-line ordering via the Internet as an option. Here I recount some of my experiences with on-line ordering from a few of the big names. A bit of background: I do rather small-scale electronic parts purchasing - electronics hardware is not my main business. But I do a small amount of one-off and few-off industrial controllers, adapters, and other custom jobs. Availability of the necessary parts in a few days is vital. For small things I can hit the local electronic shops, but for anything above something that I can dash off in an afternoon, I usually use a big-name distributor. My typical orders run from a few tens of dollars to around a thousand dollars, with a typical outlay in the range of a few hundred dollars per month. So I'm not a big-time industrial customer. I don't feel any need to establish a personal relationship with any particular supplier(s), I just want to know what's available now, and painlessly order it if it's available. I'm posting this "review" in the hope that future web-ordering implementations run smoothly for me and others. I'm trying to make the criticisms be constructive; in all cases I've sent my suggestions/complaints to folks at the respective organizations that claim to be responsible. Now, my reviews: 1. Digi-Key ( http://www.digikey.com/ ). Overall, Digi-Key has the best implemented on-line ordering system. Order entry tells you real-time stock status, each order is assigned a number by which it can be referenced, and I can electronically check the status of each order very conveniently after placing it. For each package shipped, I get a "clickable link" that takes me straight to the UPS/Fedex tracking page for that package. If I enter my customer number, I can easily check all orders that I've placed in the past few years (several dozen by now), whether I placed them over the web, by phone, or by mail. Digi-Key prides themselves at overall availability of product, and has several advantages over other vendors in this area. They claim that all orders entered into their system by 8 PM central will ship out same day, and this has been 100% true in my experience whether the order is by phone or over the Internet. (Several times I've come within a few minutes of the cutoff time and the order still shipped the same day.) They do occasionally go out-of-stock on some items, but thanks to the web I've noticed this while entering the order (if anything is on back order, it's boldly displayed) and found substitute items instead. Digi-Key doesn't stock as wide a variety of stuff as some of the other suppliers. In particular, they have a rather odd selection of IC's, and are very lacking in the industrial sensor/ motion control parts I sometimes need. But they've done a wonderful job at broadening their discrete component lines over the past few years, they're the best supplier I've yet found for PIC microcotrollers, and they're perfectly suited for handling many of my requirements. My only concern with Digi-Key is security related; in order to check my order status, all I need is my customer number and zip code, which anyone who raids my mail could find. In my case, I don't particularly care if anyone else knows what I'm building or who I'm building it for, and I'd be surprised if anyone did care. Of course, anyone could call Digi-Key up, knowing my name and address, and get my customer number without much difficulty from the order line, so the security issue isn't purely electronic, and it doesn't bother me at all in practice. 2. Newark. ( http://www.newark.com ). Newark has always been oriented, IMHO, towards selling to large corporations that do their buying through purchasing departments. This leaves an odd "flavor" to their business relations that I find unnecessary for my smaller orders. That said, the availability of on-line ordering from Newark has greatly increased the amount of business I do with them, as I don't feel awkward asking for one of this, two of that, five of these if I'm buying over the net. Newark's current on-line order entry system is pretty slick. I get real-time stock status, though the back-order status isn't as obviously displayed as in Digi-Key's system (in particular, I have to click on a "detail" display for each item that I've entered to see if it's actually in stock.) Newark's on-line database contains many items (especially semiconductors) not listed in their paper catalog, and this is a huge advantage to me. For many items, I can click and view other similar items from the catalog quite easily. Their search interface is quite complete. Newark's on-line ordering system shows several deficiencies after the order is entered, though. Often I've entered orders around 2 PM central time and not had them processed for shipment by the same day - despite the fact that Newark claims this is the case for every order. Often stock is split between multiple warehouses scattered geographically over a wide area, and I've sometimes been charged $3 in shipping for a $0.30 part. With the web interface, it's not possible to tell in advance if an order will be split like this. It seems to me that on-line orders are still entered into their computer system by hand, and it sometimes takes several hours for an on-line order to be acknowledged. In the acknowledgement, a salesorder ID number is mentioned - but often if I attempt to find the order status electronically I'm told that my salesorder ID doesn't exist. It appears that online order status requests are also done manually, as these are never acknowledged outside "ordinary business hours" and even if submitted during ordinary business hours it takes several hours to process. Only rarely do I get any useful tracking numbers if I request order status online. The Newark system completely falls over on any item that must be drop-shipped from the manufacturer - many transformers and other heavy items fall into this category. You can't tell whether any particular item is going to be drop-shipped until you get the order acknowledgment, sometimes several hours after you've submitted your complete order, telling you that this part number can't be ordered electronically, you've got to do it over the phone. This is an area where they really, really need to improve their system. At the very least, if a part isn't orderable over the Internet, you should be told that and not allowed to build it into your Internet order! 3. Jameco ( http://www.jameco.com/ ). I don't make many orders semiconductors, "standard" connectors, transformers, wall warts, cheap tools, and PC-clone accessories. Unlike Newark or Digi-Key, when I order semiconductors from Jameco it's rarely obvious who the manufacturer is going to be. In the past few years Jameco's stock of discrete components has really taken a downturn, but the remaining discretes that they do still carry are always very inexpensive. Jameco's web ordering interface is pretty good. I've never ordered anything that turns out to be out-of-stock, so I can't comment on this part of the system. Jameco's after-order customer service (shipping status, tracking numbers) is completely unavailable over the web. You have to call them up by phone and ask. During some parts of the day, their phones are quite busy, but after getting a real person on the other end of the phone it's always been very quick and painless to get my order status. 4. MSC Industrial Supply ( http://www.mscdirect.com/ ). These folks aren't really electronics distributors, but they do distribute all sorts of mechanical items, tools, bits, industrial sensors, etc. MSC's on-line ordering page is almost non-existent - it's a completely "open" form where you fill in the part number from their Big Book, the quantity you want, and the price you think the Big Book says it costs. When you're done, evidently, this form goes to a real human operator who types in the order. While on-line, there's no way to check for stock availability, or even if the part number you've entered is a real part number that's in their system. You may as well order by fax as by on-line methods. On the other hand, MSC has always been very good for taking orders over the phone. Their web interface has a long way to go, and I'm going to stick with ordering from them by phone for now. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/

I have found Unicorn Electronics and BG Micro to be excellent and low-priced. Here in Tampa, there are essentially no suppliers of hobby electronics. There is one remaining store in the next county, but they are on the verge of going out of business. There is a good store in Orlando, but that is a long drive and they are much more expensive than the mail order places. But still, shopping in person is a lot more fun. Of course, you can always use the big electronics places. Allied and Newark both have good service, in addition to Digi-key. But their prices are high. Louis On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:38:00 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: #Does anyone have a recommended place to order stuff such as Resistors and #TTL from on the net? I was at the local large seller of such stuff on #Saturday and half the stuff I wanted they were out of.

I still see these in 10yo+/- VCR's. I speak of a silicon? slab about a square inch, rectangular, not square, with two two-wire electrical connections (sender and receiver?) on corners cut at 45-deg angles. There are sort of harmonic dampening node points glued or whatever to regular places along the block. All this inside a small plastic block. Sounds like the same thing as what you're saying. What might be the signal types and the delay time for these? John A.

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We've just been offered a number of MAC Centris 610's. We are probably going to pass on them, unless there are people here that might be interested. In that case we would take them and immediately pass them along. Rhode Island Computer Museum

Tony Duell wrote: And a third with a locating pin offset from the centre so as to be out of the plane of the connectors. If it wasn't for a different impedance then I don't have a clue why such a connector even existed, unless it was a foolhardy attempt to lock you in to a particular manufacturer - breaking the pin made no difference to the connection... Most (all?) balanced aerials I see these days have screw connectors, or an ordinary 75 Ohm connector. Cheers, Dave.

His "Cheap Video Cookbook" and "TV Typewriter Cookbook" are gems, and yes probably have what you want. There are even diagrams showing you how you can take a mid-70's B&W TV and inject a composite signal after the video detector, with all sorts of warnings about doing this on TV's that have live 120VAC on the chassis :-) A similar treasure from the 70's is Heiserman's _How To Design and Build Your Own Custom TV Games_. It's a remarkable book in that it shows how to do video games with nothing other than TTL logic and some 555's. Of course, by the time it was published cheap microprocessors had spelled the end to hardwired video games. With FPGA's and CPLD's so readily available today maybe it's time to resurrect the technique? A quick search on Amazon shows that all the above-mentioned books are available used there. I often see them at local library sales, too. One Lancaster book that I've never seen is "Son of Cheap Video". Any comments on it? Tim.

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No, Composite != RF RF ihnput is modulated to TV frequencies, channel 3 or 4, composite is a composite color/sync signal on 1 wire (with ground) At 10:44 PM 6/15/02 -0500, you wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Bill Bradford wrote: Yeah, that. I'll go get a continuity tester in the morning & dupe that VAX cable, so you can have yours back. My ohmmeter died 2 months ago and I just keep borrowing my neighbor's. Doc

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