1 May
2012
1 May
'12
7:05 a.m.
Hi,
I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to
you!).
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the
CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this?
What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order?
What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with
google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board....
Kind Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
1 May
1 May
7:35 a.m.
On May 1, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Hi,
I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to
you!).
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the
CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this?
What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order?
What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with
google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board....
Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall
that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between
the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may
have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent
models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit),
but I may be misremembering that as well.
- Dave
7:39 a.m.
On May 1, 2012, at 10:35 AM, David Riley wrote:
Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond,
but I recall
that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between
the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may
have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent
models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit),
but I may be misremembering that as well.
...all of which is to say the same likely applies to KDJ11 boards as
well.
- Dave
7:55 a.m.
David Riley wrote:
On May 1, 2012, at 10:35 AM, David Riley wrote:
Hmm, my Mistake, I meant KDJ11-BF not KDF11.....
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will
respond, but I recall
that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between
the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may
have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent
models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit),
but I may be misremembering that as well.
...all of which is to say the same likely applies to KDJ11 boards as
well.
- Dave
7:53 a.m.
David Riley wrote:
On May 1, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Hmm, on my Board are 2 ROMs Handlabeled to 395E5 and 396E5 KDJ11-B V9.
The ROMs shouldn't be a problem if the rest of the Hardware can do PMI..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Hi,
I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to
you!).
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the
CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this?
What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order?
What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with
google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board....
Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall
that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between
the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may
have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent
models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit),
but I may be misremembering that as well.
- Dave
8:38 a.m.
Holm Tiffe wrote:
David Riley wrote:
Hmm, it seems to work w/o Problems:
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP
15.206 MHz
CPU Options: FPA
Memory Map
Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus
Address address K Bytes address type type
00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772102 ECC PMI
Press the RETURN key when ready to continue
I don't have tried to boot something, the disk currently in the system
is Quasiarus Unix for the VAX. I'll at least try to boot an RSX11 install
tape....
Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B MU0
Trying MU0
Starting system from MU0
RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Copy System V03
RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Configuration and Disk Sizing Program
Valid switches are:
/CSR=nnnnnn to change the default device CSR
/VEC=nnn to change the default device vector
/FOR=n to change the default magtape formatter number
/DEV to list all default device CSR and vectors
Enter first device:
Ok, Since I dont want to install now, I'm stopping here.
It seems really like that it is working.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On May 1, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Hmm, on my Board are 2 ROMs Handlabeled to 395E5 and 396E5 KDJ11-B V9.
The ROMs shouldn't be a problem if the rest of the Hardware can do PMI..
Regards,
Holm
--
Hi,
I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to
you!).
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the
CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this?
What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order?
What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with
google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board....
Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall
that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between
the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may
have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent
models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit),
but I may be misremembering that as well.
- Dave 
3:27 p.m.
New subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ??
On 01/05/2012 15:05, Holm Tiffe wrote:
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have
an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
Certainly. If you put it below the CPU, it will behave as normal QBus
memory, or if you put it above, it will work as PMI memory.
What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the
KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net?
The final letter denotes the board revision, unlike KDF11-B where it
denotes the firmware revision. Technically at least, it has nothing to
do with PMI capability; all KDJ11-B have that. Originally, the -BF
boards sold as 11/83 (etc) used PMI memory and were all 18MHz, while the
boards (mostly -BB and -BC) sold in 11/73 systems (non-PMI QBus memory)
were only 15MHz, but either flavour will work either way. Early 11/73
boards won't work with an FPJ11 (-BB should be OK).
You mentioned the EPROM numbers in a later post. 23-395E5 and 23-396E5
aren't ones I'd heard of, though, but likely are merely later ones than
I knew of (or have copies of). I knew of V6.0, V7.0, and V8.0. Fancy
dumping the contents to a couple of files?
See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
2 May
2 May
3:16 a.m.
New subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ??
Pete Turnbull wrote:
On 01/05/2012 15:05, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Is that your site?
Here are the Images:
http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/KDJ11-BB/23-395E5.bin
http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/KDJ11-BB/23-396E5.bin
...looked at the data(cat 23-395E5.bin 23-396E5.bin >all.bin and vis versa)
that looks that they have mangled adress/data lines somewhat, nothing
readably there..
Same on the 23-168E5.bin and 23-169E5.bin that appears to be on Olegs
board. (see below)
I've checked something against that picture from Oleg's 11/83
in the menatime: http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/pdp11-83/
The Board Revision (upper left) is the same, the Cache is the same,
the DC351 is the same (the DC350 is looking different, has a silver
plate, mine has a golden plate) and the DCJ11-AC is the same as on
my board (same 57-19400-04).
So I'm soldered an 18,432Mhz Xtal in (haven't found 18.00 in my
stock jet) and at least the continous selftest from the ROMs is running
flawlessly (~860 passes w/o Error).
Map is displaying 18.429 MHz CPU Options: FPA.
So I finally think there is no real difference from my KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF
board, at least in my case.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I
have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
Certainly. If you put it below the CPU, it will behave as normal QBus
memory, or if you put it above, it will work as PMI memory.
What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the
KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net?
The final letter denotes the board revision, unlike KDF11-B where it
denotes the firmware revision. Technically at least, it has nothing to
do with PMI capability; all KDJ11-B have that. Originally, the -BF
boards sold as 11/83 (etc) used PMI memory and were all 18MHz, while the
boards (mostly -BB and -BC) sold in 11/73 systems (non-PMI QBus memory)
were only 15MHz, but either flavour will work either way. Early 11/73
boards won't work with an FPJ11 (-BB should be OK).
You mentioned the EPROM numbers in a later post. 23-395E5 and 23-396E5
aren't ones I'd heard of, though, but likely are merely later ones than
I knew of (or have copies of). I knew of V6.0, V7.0, and V8.0. Fancy
dumping the contents to a couple of files?
See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
9:46 a.m.
New subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ??
On 02/05/2012 11:16, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Pete Turnbull wrote:
Yes, it is.
See
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more.
Is that your site? Here are the Images:
Thanks! I'll upload them and edit the list later.
...looked at the data(cat 23-395E5.bin 23-396E5.bin
>all.bin and vis versa)
that looks that they have mangled adress/data lines somewhat, nothing
readably there..
Same on the 23-168E5.bin and 23-169E5.bin that appears to be on Olegs
board. (see below)
They're low-byte and high-byte of 16-bit words, so unless you merge
them, it will look a little odd :-)
So I'm soldered an 18,432Mhz Xtal in (haven't
found 18.00 in my
stock jet) and at least the continous selftest from the ROMs is running
flawlessly (~860 passes w/o Error).
Map is displaying 18.429 MHz CPU Options: FPA.
I did that to two of mine, but one had to be downgraded again because
although it ran OK on it's own, it gave mysterious errors with real
software on a real system.
The design speed of the J11 was originally 20MHz, but it was a long time
(years) before DEC got any that would actually meet that spec under all
conditions.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
3 p.m.
New subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ??
Pete Turnbull wrote:
Yes I know, but not 20 Mhz, 5Mhz they really have.
The russians made faster CPUs long time ago (K1801VM2 for example, runs at
10 (Clock 20) but has no MMU).
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On 02/05/2012 11:16, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Yes, you are right. Don't know what's wrong with my own brain this time...
Pete Turnbull wrote:
Yes, it is.
See
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more.
Is that your site? Here are the Images:
Thanks! I'll upload them and edit the list later.
...looked at the data(cat 23-395E5.bin
23-396E5.bin >all.bin and vis versa)
that looks that they have mangled adress/data lines somewhat, nothing
readably there..
Same on the 23-168E5.bin and 23-169E5.bin that appears to be on Olegs
board. (see below)
They're low-byte and high-byte of 16-bit words, so unless you merge
them, it will look a little odd :-) So I'm soldered an 18,432Mhz Xtal in
(haven't found 18.00 in my
stock jet) and at least the continous selftest from the ROMs is running
flawlessly (~860 passes w/o Error).
Map is displaying 18.429 MHz CPU Options: FPA.
I did that to two of mine, but one had to be downgraded again because
although it ran OK on it's own, it gave mysterious errors with real
software on a real system.
The design speed of the J11 was originally 20MHz, but it was a long time
(years) before DEC got any that would actually meet that spec under all
conditions.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York 
2:15 p.m.
New subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ??
Pete Turnbull wrote:
On 01/05/2012 15:05, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Your advice confirms my experience as well. The reasons that the
PDP-11/83 is faster
than the PDP-11/73 are due to the use of PMI memory and the 18 MHz
crystal on the
KDJ11-BF as opposed to the 15 MHz crystal on the KDJ11-BB.
I did a few timing tests with all of the configurations. As expected,
the 18 MHz crystal
added very little to the extra speed - my experience was that less than
1/3 of the increased
speed was due to the faster clock rate. Obviously, most of the
increased speed was due
to the use of PMI memory which, as Pete specified, is available with an
ordinary KDJ11-BB
in addition to the KDJ11-BF.
The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I
have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E)
PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether..
Certainly. If you put it below the CPU, it will behave as normal QBus
memory, or if you put it above, it will work as PMI memory.
What are the
differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there
pictures to look at somwhere on the net?
The final letter denotes the board revision, unlike KDF11-B where it
denotes the firmware revision. Technically at least, it has nothing to
do with PMI capability; all KDJ11-B have that. Originally, the -BF
boards sold as 11/83 (etc) used PMI memory and were all 18MHz, while the
boards (mostly -BB and -BC) sold in 11/73 systems (non-PMI QBus memory)
were only 15MHz, but either flavour will work either way. Early 11/73
boards won't work with an FPJ11 (-BB should be OK).
You mentioned the EPROM numbers in a later post.
23-395E5 and 23-396E5
aren't ones I'd heard of, though, but likely are merely later ones than
I knew of (or have copies of). I knew of V6.0, V7.0, and V8.0. Fancy
dumping the contents to a couple of files?
See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more.
Jerome Fine
4399
days inactive
4400
days old
10 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com