25 Nov
2019
25 Nov
'19
10:06 a.m.
From: Fred Cisin
Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK
YOU for specifying
"internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older
history.
...
those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
internet.
Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
different words, with _different meanings_.
Definition and history of the WORD
"internet" is also critical
...
do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the
December 1974 RFC about TCP?
I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working
Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same
meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused
with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two
papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I
don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the
Cerf/Kakhn paper.
Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so
the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn
paper came out.
"Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered
around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for
the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas,
fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the
RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's
a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA
Internet");
the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning
which
I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
Noel
25 Nov
25 Nov
10:45 a.m.
Noel,
Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home:
internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide
collection of networked computers?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
From: Fred
Cisin
Is that message about 1) history of internet?
(THANK YOU for specifying
"internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older
history.
...
those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
internet.
Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
different words, with _different meanings_.
Definition and history of the WORD
"internet" is also critical
...
do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the
December 1974 RFC about TCP?
I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working
Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same
meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused
with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two
papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I
don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in
the
Cerf/Kakhn paper.
Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so
the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn
paper came out.
"Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered
around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for
the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas,
fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the
RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again,
there's
a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA
Internet");
the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning
which
I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
Noel
10:53 a.m.
No, your home has an intranet!
cheers,
Nigel
On 25/11/2019 13:45, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
Noel,
??? Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home:
internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide
collection of networked computers?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591
If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it
will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system
administrators along the way.
Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
???? > From: Fred Cisin
???? > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for
specifying
???? > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much
older history.
???? > ...
???? > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on
the
???? > internet.
Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
different words, with _different meanings_.
???? > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical
???? > ...
???? > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet"
prior to the
???? > December 1974 RFC about TCP?
I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
?????? V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
?????? Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
?????? 2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working
Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much
the same
meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be
confused
with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is
documented in two
papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex
McKenzie.) I
don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its
appearance in the
Cerf/Kakhn paper.
Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December
1973, so
the word was in circulation in the technical community before the
Cerf/Kahn
paper came out.
"Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet
centered
around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email
list for
the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory
is, alas,
fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense
in the
RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again,
there's
a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA
Internet");
the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning
which
I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
????Noel
10:57 a.m.
Nigel,
You are correct. Sorry! A Senior moment. LOL! :) What about
internet vs Internet?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/25/2019 12:53 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
No, your home has an intranet!
cheers,
Nigel
On 25/11/2019 13:45, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
Noel,
Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home:
internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide
collection of networked computers?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
From:
Fred Cisin
Is that message about 1) history of internet?
(THANK YOU for
specifying
"internet", otherwise "computer to
computer" involves much
older history.
...
those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT
on the
internet.
Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
different words, with _different meanings_.
Definition and history of the WORD
"internet" is also critical
...
do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet"
prior to the
December 1974 RFC about TCP?
I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
networks together, performed in the International Packet Network
Working
Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much
the same
meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be
confused
with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is
documented in two
papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex
McKenzie.) I
don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its
appearance in the
Cerf/Kakhn paper.
Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December
1973, so
the word was in circulation in the technical community before the
Cerf/Kahn
paper came out.
"Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet
centered
around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email
list for
the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory
is, alas,
fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense
in the
RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking
again, there's
a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA
Internet");
the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning
which
I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
Noel
4:01 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:53 AM Nigel Johnson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
No, your home has an intranet!
My home has multiple distinct IP networks, which are joined by routers, and
by definition they constitute an internet.
As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an intranet, as
distinct from The Internet.
4:21 p.m.
On 11/25/2019 5:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an
intranet, as
distinct from The Internet.
Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device.
I am just waiting for a INTERNET of pi's all emulating TSS 8.
The web for the last 20 years is what marketing wants to sell.
Ben.
4:24 p.m.
Hello all,
I will never move to the cloud. I don't want my info out there.
That is why win8 will probably be the last version of windoze that I
will ever use.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/25/2019 6:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 11/25/2019 5:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
As a whole, my internet at home could be
considered an intranet, as
distinct from The Internet.
Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device.
I am just waiting for a INTERNET of pi's all emulating TSS 8.
The web for the last 20 years is what marketing wants to sell.
Ben.
4:29 p.m.
Do you mean they have finally perfected the WOM???
On 11/25/2019 6:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device.
--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591
If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it
will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system
administrators along the way.
Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
5:10 p.m.
On 11/25/2019 5:29 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
Do you mean they have finally perfected the WOM???
Yes in 1972 , but no free samples of the Signetics 25120,
orders only of 999,999 units @ $ 1.95 each. (limited time offer)
http://www.ganssle.com/misc/wom1.jpg
http://www.ganssle.com/misc/wom2.jpg
11:01 a.m.
No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network of
computers belonging to different organizations, or using different technologies. I think
at the time, "network" was used to designate a collection of computers in a
single building, or under single management, talking to each other. If you connect such
"networks" together, the result is an "internet".
I'd say that term is at this point rather obsolete. I don't think I've seen
it in use as a technical term for decades.
"Internet", with a capital letter, is something different entirely: it is (or
feels like) the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became desirable to
call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a US government research
agency creation.
paul
On Nov 25, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Noel,
Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and the
term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > From: Fred Cisin
>
> > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying
> > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves
much older history.
> > ...
> > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
> > internet.
>
> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>
> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
> different words, with _different meanings_.
> ...
12:50 p.m.
On 2019-Nov-25, at 11:01 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> On Nov 25, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Richard Pope via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>>> From: Fred Cisin
>>> Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying
>>> "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves
much older history.
>>> ...
>>> those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
>>> internet.
>>
>> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>>
>> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
>> different words, with _different meanings_.
>> ...
>
> Noel,
> Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and
the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers?
>
> rich
No, "internet" has (had?) a very different
meaning. Loosely, a network of computers belonging to different organizations, or using
different technologies. I think at the time, "network" was used to designate a
collection of computers in a single building, or under single management, talking to each
other. If you connect such "networks" together, the result is an
"internet".
I'd say that term is at this point rather obsolete. I don't think I've seen
it in use as a technical term for decades.
"Internet", with a capital letter, is something different entirely: it is (or
feels like) the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became desirable to
call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a US government research
agency creation.
paul
(From my recollection from back in the early 80s), "internet" was about
interworking between different *types* of networks.
Different types of networks and network technologies presented different capabilities and
restrictions to the user - packet/frame sizes, flow control, routing/addressing
specification, etc.
The point of 'internetting' was to provide a uniform interface for the user to
'the network' while your data could flow through instances of all sorts of
different types of networks (not necessarily just different types of physical links) to
get to the other end.
Roughly, IP took care of a common addressing scheme and a common packet presentation, TCP
took care of end-to-end flow control.
(It wasn't (only) about bridging geographically-separated but otherwise-similar
networks.)
It seems this is so all-encompassing nowadays that the original meaning is being lost.
As so much nowadays is about throwing ethernet frames around on different types of links
and network formats (not what ethernet was originally designed for), some of the earlier
diversity that made 'interneting' necessary may no longer be there.
It might be arguable whether we have an 'internet' any longer or just a great big
'network' with different types of links.
1:03 p.m.
seen recently:
"Ah, but was it porn, spam, or pop-up ads that really fueled the
development of the interwebs?"
1857
days inactive
1858
days old
11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bhilpert＠shaw.ca -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
mechanic_2＠charter.net -
nw.johnson＠ieee.org -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
spacewar＠gmail.com