16 Jun
1997
16 Jun
'97
3:45 p.m.
At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote:
So what exactly is a Victor 9000???
Just another PC clone?
Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as
standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives
(as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think.
And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
17 Jun
17 Jun
7:36 a.m.
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
Was the first computer to use variable speed disk
drives
(as the early Mac's did as well.)
I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well.
--------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. -------------------------------
Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88'
alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk
The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk
8:36 a.m.
On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
I don't know where you got that information from, but I've never known
that to be the case. All apple drives ran at a static 300rpm or else they
didn't work.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Was the first computer to use variable speed disk
drives
(as the early Mac's did as well.)
I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. 
8:31 a.m.
New subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Hello! I have a working PCjr without any add ons to it.
All It had is two types of keyboard one is clicklet and one is real
keyboard, parallel sidecar, extra 64k in it totals 128k and a 5.25"
But it is missing a power transformer, it uses dual tapped 17vac
connected to one tap inside the transformer making total of three
wires. But I made up a power adapter to accept clone pc standard
switching PSU in place of its little AC to DC convertor card. One
time I booted it with 5.x dos but I had to set video mode to arrive
at 80 columns at end of boot.
Is the orignal transformer brick underpowered if I put extra add ons?
Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would
like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it
would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is
there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the
floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this
PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap
vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts?
Oh, by the way, my father still have a TI 99/4A in black/sliver case
with all the stuff but not the expansion box. It is bit iffy and
joysticks is worn out from lot of use by me and my brother. Both of
us would program in lots of basic and see what it does. SLow. :)
And both of us would play the Peaseac I think a LOT.
What's is the best way to retore it to an reliable one again?
Thanks!
18 Jun
18 Jun
5:35 a.m.
New subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit
It was thus said that the Great jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca once stated:
Is the orignal transformer brick underpowered if I put extra add ons?
Yes. I have a PCjr with a parallel extension and several memory
extensions (two I think - it's at home, I'm at work) and I have a secondary
power supply (that hooks up the same as all extentions, off the side).
Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this
PCjr? I would
like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it
would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is
there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the
floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this
PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap
vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts?
You might want to try a web search on PCjr. I've heard of companies that
supply parts, although for DMA, you'll have to have drivers since the BIOS
does not support DMA driven I/O.
-spc (Surprised at the music capabilities of the PCjr)
6:11 a.m.
New subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit
> Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for
this PCjr? ...
> Where's is good source to find these parts?
i've been seeing a lot of PC Jr. stuff at recent hamfests including
complete systems, IR keyboards and "sidecar" expansion units.
- glenn
+=========================================================+
| Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA
| Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer
| groberts(a)mitre.org
7:11 a.m.
New subject: Mark 8
I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8
computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board
sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember
who might be doing this? This was the computer that appeared on the
cover of Radio-Electronics sometime (as I recall) in 1974 and predates
the Altair. I am starting to actively look for the Intel 8008
microprocessor but so far no luck. But that's okay, I still have a LOT
more friends and people I know to bug about it :).
As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL
chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. If
anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be
interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the
Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) To convert the artwork
in the magazine to decent PCB artwork would cost roughly $17 per board
for the negative and perhaps another $10 or so to get another copy
(after cleaning up the imperfections in the first negative.) Not sure
what the cost per finished board would be but single sided would most
likely be between $15 - $20, and double sided about 20% or so more.
Anyone else interested in this project? Since I am not in a rush, I
suspect we are talking several months to get the boards and artwork
done.
7:43 a.m.
New subject: Mark 8
On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote:
I need another project :) and I was thinking about
building the Mark 8
computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board
sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember
who might be doing this?
That would be me...
This was the computer that appeared on the
cover of Radio-Electronics sometime (as I recall) in 1974 and predates
the Altair. I am starting to actively look for the Intel 8008
microprocessor but so far no luck. But that's okay, I still have a LOT
more friends and people I know to bug about it :).
The truth (and the chips) is out there...
As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set
and a bunch of TTL
chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided.
Double sided. The new boards should be pretty neat.
If anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a
template, I would be
interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the
Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.)
Sorry, no. To get the PCB layouts you had to order the 'supplimental
document pack' for an extra $5.00 (long out of print, bit I have copies)
Unfortunately, the plates used for the original printing appear to have
been overexposed and there are a number of places on the layouts where
traces and pads have blurred together. So, in short the original layouts
are a good reference, but largely useless to work directly from.
Additionally, there are three components (aside from the 8008) that are
either no longer in production, or don't have current functional
replacements. These being the 1101 (256x1) RAM used in the prototype, and
some latches used in the address/memory buffer board.
So... since we were confronted with doing (pretty much) new board layouts
anyway, we are also going to do redesigns of the memory and address/memory
buffer boards to allow the use of more readily available components.
(2102 (1k x 1) RAM for the memory, and I'm still checking on latches) The
unit will be functionally unchanged. I'm also considering making a
limited number of unmodified memory and address/memory buffer boards
is there is sufficient interest. (or if someone is sitting on a potload
of these latch parts!)
In any case... I need to complete the workup on the address/memory buffer
board changes so I can send the last updates over to my layout folks so we
can move forward on the boards... All I need is about another 2-3 days in
a week... B^{
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
7:58 a.m.
New subject: Mark 8
On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote:
As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set
and a bunch of TTL
chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. If
anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be
interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the
Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) To convert the artwork
in the magazine to decent PCB artwork would cost roughly $17 per board
for the negative and perhaps another $10 or so to get another copy
(after cleaning up the imperfections in the first negative.) Not sure
what the cost per finished board would be but single sided would most
likely be between $15 - $20, and double sided about 20% or so more.
Anyone else interested in this project? Since I am not in a rush, I
suspect we are talking several months to get the boards and artwork
done.
Sounds cool. I have absolutely no time, but I hope you carry through on
this and do it. I would be interested in building one from your
pioneering reconstruction eventually. Good luck.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
17 Jun
17 Jun
8:42 a.m.
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1:38 p.m.
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
Are you sure about that? The Disk ]['s I have on my Apples seem to be
based on shugart mechanics, and have the standard motor control board in
them, which doesn't seem to have been modified at all. In which case it
would rotate at a constant 300rpm.
Was the first computer to use variable speed disk
drives
(as the early Mac's did as well.)
I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88'
,88' alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk
--
-tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
19 Jun
19 Jun
2:38 a.m.
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote:
Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use
variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does
this.
That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18
to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35.
AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as
well.
As Chuck Peddle designed the PET for Commodore, it is not surprising that
he went on to use variable speed drives in his own company's machine.
So what exactly is a Victor 9000???
Just another PC clone?
Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as
standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives
(as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC.
I thought the Victor 9000 was from around 1982. There's a review of it,
and an interview with Chuck Peddle, in the November 1982 issue of BYTE.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
8:55 a.m.
Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the
first computer to use
variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does
this.
No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I
have service manuals for both of them)
The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data
clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
sectors on said tracks.
I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data
clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18
to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35.
AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as
well.
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
--
-tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
5:33 a.m.
Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said:
[snip]
The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the
speed of the data
clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
sectors on said tracks.
I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data
clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18
to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35.
AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as
well.
> Doug Spence
> ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca -tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this
and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive!
(Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives,
respectively?)
See Ya,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed,
Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should
zmerch(a)northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice.
6:07 a.m.
I snipped blank lines...
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep
deprivation, A.R. Duell said:
[snip]
>The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data
>clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
>sectors on said tracks.
>I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data
>clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
>up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
>> That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18
>> to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35.
>> AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as
>> well.
>> Doug Spence
>> ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
>-tony
>ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for
IBM PC's that do this
and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive!
(Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives,
respectively?)
With Linux (Or any Unix) I can get 2.0 meg on a 1.44 meg floppy. Those
disks are actually 2.0 meg, with .66 meg taken up by the filesystem. By
using the disk as a raw device, I can get tar to put 2 meg on a disk.
20 Jun
20 Jun
3:18 a.m.
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Not the Amiga, it uses a constant rotation speed and data rate. The Amiga
gets the "extra" space on the disk by simply not using sector headers.
When a sector is needed, the entire track it lives on is read into a
buffer, and when a modification is made the entire track is written back
out.
The lack of sector headers allows the Amiga to write 11 sectors per track,
instead of 9 as with the PC. (In practice, though, I can safely get 12
sectors per track, and I understand it's possible to go higher.)
Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep
deprivation, A.R. Duell said:
[snip]
>The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data
>clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
>sectors on said tracks.
>
>I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data
>clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
>up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
<snip>
-tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this
and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive!
(Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives,
respectively?) See Ya,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed,
Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should
zmerch(a)northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice.
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
2:53 a.m.
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote:
Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a
much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the
clarification!
Uh, I beg to
differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use
variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does
this.
No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I
have service manuals for both of them)
The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data
clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
sectors on said tracks. I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives.
Changing the data
clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
Yup, you're right.
--
-tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
1:11 a.m.
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote:
Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a
much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the
clarification!
That true regeading the mass of the flywheel motor on floppy drives
is pretty heavy. Hey, what about the Mac that did still use 4 speed
disk drive, you can hear the differences in speeds made clearly by
formatting a disk.
Jason D.
Uh, I beg
to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use
variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does
this.
No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I
have service manuals for both of them)
The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data
clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
sectors on said tracks. I never really saw the point of variable-speed
drives. Changing the data
clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
Yup, you're right.
--
-tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
1:11 a.m.
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote:
Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a
much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the
clarification!
That's true regeading the mass of the flywheel is
massive. But the
Mac does uses 4 speed made clearly by rate of spin rate and ticks of
head especially clearly heard during the formatting session.
Uh, I beg
to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use
variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does
this.
No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I
have service manuals for both of them)
The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data
clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more
sectors on said tracks. I never really saw the point of variable-speed
drives. Changing the data
clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle
up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time).
Yup, you're right. --
-tony
ard12(a)eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
9895
days inactive
9899
days old
18 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
alexios＠vennea.demon.co.uk -
ard12＠eng.cam.ac.uk -
dastar＠crl.com -
ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca -
dseagrav＠bsdserver.tek-star.net -
groberts＠mitre.org -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
jpero＠mail.cgo.wave.ca -
marvin＠rain.org -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca -
sinasohn＠crl.com -
spc＠armigeron.com -
zmerch＠northernway.net