1 Feb
2008
1 Feb
'08
2:21 p.m.
Dan Gahlinger wrote:
There *IS* a Vax named a "Saul" or
"SOL", I've seen it.
It's a "luggable" (so to speak) like the Rainbow, but it's a Vax.
They existed, so don't insult my intelligence.
And btw I've been doing Vaxen since 1976, so I
think
I know a thing or two about reading Ascii
it's definitely "OS/2"
I think it's time for me to unsubscribe from this list and
get back to reality. Sure, let's make up names for already
existing products instead of figuring out what they are
(VS2000? VAXmate?) and then insist that that we've
been doing the VAX a year before it left the
factory, therefore OS/2 has to exist for the PDP-11.
Why do I even try to interject myself into this crap.
Tim.
5 Feb
5 Feb
2:19 p.m.
what are you talking about?
Vax existed before 1976 dude, where the hell have you been?
ever heard of the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP ?
You obviously have NO clue what you're talking about.
i was there in '76, and those had already been out for about a year.
I saw, physically handled, touched, used the "sol"
Sorry I can't remember the exact spelling, but it was like 30 years ago. sheesh.
but please, get a clue.
There are those of us who were there, we lived this. unlike some no one like yourself.
If you want to leave, go ahead. we have better things to do
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:21:41 -0500
From: tshoppa at wmata.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11?
Dan Gahlinger wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
There *IS* a Vax named a "Saul" or
"SOL", I've seen it.
It's a "luggable" (so to speak) like the Rainbow, but it's a Vax.
They existed, so don't insult my
intelligence.
And btw I've been doing Vaxen since 1976, so
I think
I know a thing or two about reading Ascii
it's definitely "OS/2"
I think it's time for me to unsubscribe from this list and
get back to reality. Sure, let's make up names for already
existing products instead of figuring out what they are
(VS2000? VAXmate?) and then insist that that we've
been doing the VAX a year before it left the
factory, therefore OS/2 has to exist for the PDP-11.
Why do I even try to interject myself into this crap.
Tim.
2:42 p.m.
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 14:19 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
what are you talking about?
Vax existed before 1976 dude, where the hell have you been?
ever heard of the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP ?
You obviously have NO clue what you're talking about.
i was there in '76, and those had already been out for about a year.
Oh, you mean the VAX 11/750 which came out around 1980? No wonder the
computer industry is so screwed up! DEC was sitting on VAXen models for
years before showing them to the world.
*rolls eyes*
2:45 p.m.
ever heard of the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with
the PDP-8 FEP ?
Sure you don't mean the 780? I didn't think the 750 had a FEP at all;
at least, on the ones I used I didn't see anything identifiably FEPish,
either hardware or software. (I also *think* the 750 wasn't around
pre-1980, but I'm a lot less sure of that.)
You obviously have NO clue what you're talking
about.
This smacks of pots and kettles. (Admittedly, the 750/780 thing could
have been a typo, but it's still amusingly ironic.)
And, both of you, I don't care who you are and when you were working
with what; the kind of remarks you've been throwing at one another are,
in my opinion, way over the top.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
3:38 p.m.
der Mouse wrote:
The VAX-11/750 had no FEP. The VAX-11/780 had a PDP-11/23 (iirc)
which kicked it into life, ran the floppy etc. All clear in the
prints. The VAX-11/750 prints are definitely on the net. I think
the VAX-11/780 ones are too.
Everyone knows that KO flicked the switch on the first VAX-11/780
off the production lines on 25-OCT-1977. There were no VAXes
before then (and the VAX-11/780 was not luggable by any human
definition).
If Bob Supnik says there was no luggable VAX on his watch, then
that's more than good enough for me. If there were luggable VAXes
before his watch, one has to wonder why DEC made such a hoopla
about the MicroVAX II (mid 1980s, distinctly non-luggable, although
it could make a comfortable seat if you were tired).
I know der Mouse knows all this, but just in case someone trips over
this thread 20 years from now, I thought I'd throw in a few easily
verifiable facts for them check out. Rumours start way too easily.
Antonio
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04/02/2008 20:42
ever heard of
the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP ?
Sure you don't mean the 780? I didn't think the 750 had a FEP at all;
at least, on the ones I used I didn't see anything identifiably
FEPish,
either hardware or software. (I also *think* the 750 wasn't around
pre-1980, but I'm a lot less sure of that.) 
3:52 p.m.
On Tuesday 05 February 2008, der Mouse wrote:
The VAX-11/750 currently in my basement certainly doesn't have a PDP-8
installed in it. Pictures:
http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html
An 11/780 does have a PDP-11/03 in it as a console subsystem (it's
really really not a front-end processor, no sane person would let a
user bang away at the console of an 11/780... I've hosed the console
program a few times already on my 11/780 just by having the baud rate
at 9600 baud instead of 300). However, an 11/780 also doesn't have a
PDP-8 in it, and wasn't even announced until late 1977.
Pictures of my 11/780 showing the 11/03 in the bottom left of the CPU
rack:
http://flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/2203329938/
On Friday 01 February 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
ever heard of
the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP
?
Sure you don't mean the 780? I didn't think the 750 had a FEP at
all; at least, on the ones I used I didn't see anything identifiably
FEPish, either hardware or software. (I also *think* the 750 wasn't
around pre-1980, but I'm a lot less sure of that.) There *IS* a Vax named a "Saul" or
"SOL", I've seen it.
It's a "luggable" (so to speak) like the Rainbow, but it's a Vax.
On Tuesday 05 February 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
I know what it was, it was a true luggable-style
device. not a
vaxstation and not Vaxmate or something like that. but again, it's
been 30 years.
There must be something I'm missing here. You said that the VAXstation
(I'd guess people are taking about the 3100 series here, not the larger
versions that are on wheels) isn't a luggable, but a rainbow is. The
DEC Rainbow I've got at home is bigger than a VAXstation 3100, and
unlike the Osborne 1 and Exec that I've got, does not have a built-in
monitor, or detachable/attachable keyboard. Or, do you mean a form
factor that's not similar to the Osborne 1?
For that matter, are you saying that 30 years ago, in 1978, that Digital
was able to produce a VAX CPU, memory, some sort of storage, and a
monitor that would physically fit into a case the size of the Osborne
1, and which drew a small enough amount of power to comfortably run off
a single 15A, 120V outlet?
My "best guess" is that perhaps you are referring to the PDT series of
luggable PDP-11 systems that DEC produced. However, I don't know when
those were produced, and it could well have been less than 30 years
ago.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
4:10 p.m.
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 15:52, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
versions that are on wheels) isn't a luggable, but
a rainbow is. The
DEC Rainbow I've got at home is bigger than a VAXstation 3100, and
unlike the Osborne 1 and Exec that I've got, does not have a built-in
monitor, or detachable/attachable keyboard. Or, do you mean a form
factor that's not similar to the Osborne 1?
You have Osbornes too? Does your O-1 have the DD and screen-pac upgrades? I
saw a lot of those machines, there being a local club and me having my shop
in the building of the dealer who was selling them. I liked the exec pretty
much, excepting the single-sided drives, but never cared for the O-1 as
much, mostly because of that 52-column screen.
Remembering how after installing the screen-pac upgrade for folks I could
actually read those characters when it was set to 104 columns...! Not
something I think I could do these days, though they do have a pretty sharp
screen, there.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
4:43 p.m.
At 3:52 PM -0500 2/5/08, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008, der Mouse wrote:
The VAX-11/750 currently in my basement certainly doesn't have a PDP-8
installed in it. Pictures:
http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html
An 11/780 does have a PDP-11/03 in it as a console subsystem (it's
really really not a front-end processor, no sane person would let a
user bang away at the console of an 11/780
I'm with Pat on this. I managed a lot of /780s; they all had LSI-11s
as the front end.
Also, never saw a /750 with a PDP-8 front end. Managed a few of
these too, though this timeframe is a bit hazy. According to Gordon
Bell
<http://research.microsoft.com/Users/gbell/Digital/timeline/32-bit.htm>
the /750 was introduced in late 1980.
John
ever
heard of the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP
?
Sure you don't mean the 780? I didn't think the 750 had a FEP at
all; at least, on the ones I used I didn't see anything identifiably
FEPish, either hardware or software. (I also *think* the 750 wasn't
around pre-1980, but I'm a lot less sure of that.)
5:49 p.m.
John A. Dundas III wrote:
I'm with Pat on this. I managed a lot of /780s;
they all had LSI-11s
as the front end.
Me too (and I'm sorry I said 11/23 ... I'll go look next time rather
than
trying to rely on neurons!)
Also, never saw a /750 with a PDP-8 front end.
Managed a few of
these too, though this timeframe is a bit hazy. According to Gordon
Bell
<http://research.microsoft.com/Users/gbell/Digital/timeline/32-bit.htm>
the /750 was introduced in late 1980.
That timeline was originally from DEC and was on the 40th Anniversay CD
(and the web site). I wondered where it had gone.
Antonio
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9:44 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 01:43:19PM -0800, John A. Dundas III wrote:
As did every one I ever saw.
At 3:52 PM -0500 2/5/08, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
>On Tuesday 05 February 2008, der Mouse wrote:
>> > ever heard of the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP
>> > ?
Indeed - ???
>> Sure you don't mean the 780? I
didn't think the 750 had a FEP at
>> all; at least, on the ones I used I didn't see anything identifiably
>> FEPish, either hardware or software. (I also *think* the 750 wasn't
>> around pre-1980, but I'm a lot less sure of that.)
I completely agree. I managed two 11/750s between 1985 and 1994, and I still
have one of those two (S/N BT00000354). There is nothing FEPish, but
there is something like an ODT console program. You can examine registers
with it, but I only ever did that once (debugging a problem with a
second Unibus interface - L0010, IIRC). Mostly, folks just install
a boot ROM to match the boot device and twist the A-D selector
switch to the correct position and press "reset". We had three ROMs
in ours - the default console TU58 boot (position "D"), MSCP ("A" in
our
case), and a "DR" boot ROM for either an RM03 (or RM05) on the MASSBUS or
for our SI9900 w/SMD disk that I talk about here from time to time
(emulated dual RM03 plus an oversized RM05).
The 11/730 (and 11/725) has an on-board FEP - an 8085. You talk to
it much in the same way as you do to the LSI-11 in an 11/780, except
its console medium is TU58 tape, not RX01 disk. Syntactically, though,
I believe it's similar (I know the KA730 well, but not the KA780).
The VAX-11/750
currently in my basement certainly doesn't have a PDP-8
installed in it. Pictures:
http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html
An 11/780 does have a PDP-11/03 in it as a console subsystem (it's
really really not a front-end processor, no sane person would let a
user bang away at the console of an 11/780
I'm with Pat on this. I managed a lot of /780s; they all had LSI-11s
as the front end. Also, never saw a /750 with a PDP-8 front end.
Managed a few of
these too, though this timeframe is a bit hazy. According to Gordon
Bell
<http://research.microsoft.com/Users/gbell/Digital/timeline/32-bit.htm>
the /750 was introduced in late 1980.
Perhaps someone is confusing the 11/750 with some model of PDP-10? I
know that there was a PDP-8/i-based I/O subsystem for one of the -10s.
I've also seen an -8/a in the block diagram for a peripheral for some later
model of -10 (does a "DX10" ring a bell to anyone?) Most of the -10s I've
seen personally, have an -11 for an FEP, but I am not an exhaustive
authority on 36-bit hardware, especially not, say, a KA-10. I've stood
in front of a few KS-10s and perhaps a KL-10.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Feb-2008 at 02:30 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.2 F (-42.9 C) Windchill -70.6 F (-57.0 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 7.8 kts Grid 54 Barometer 674.5 mb (10836 ft)
Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
6 Feb
6 Feb
11:12 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11730 (was Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11?)
Ethan Dicks wrote:
The 11/730 (and 11/725) has an on-board FEP - an 8085.
You talk to
it much in the same way as you do to the LSI-11 in an 11/780, except
its console medium is TU58 tape, not RX01 disk. Syntactically, though,
I believe it's similar (I know the KA730 well, but not the KA780).
Indeed, the 730 CFE (Console Front End or FEP) was very much like the 780
- the commands were similar and the 730 even used indirect command files for
functions like booting and power up loading of microcode. All the
microstore on the 730 was RAM; the only ROM was a little EPROM that booted
the 8085 operating system from the console TU58. Everything else - all the
CPU microcode, the microcode for the IDC (integrated disk controller) the
FPA microcode, and VMB - were all loaded from the TU58. Although the 8085
operating system was some custom thing DEC wrote themselves, the TU58s used
an RT11 file system (again, just like the 780) and you could easily
manipulate them with EXCHANGE or FILEX.
The bad news was that TU58s are really, really, slow. With all the
microcode and indirect files that had to be read from the TU58, your 730
could easily take ten minutes from power on to the point where VMB was even
ready to start thinking about loading VMS. When working on one, you want to
do everything you can to avoid turning off the CPU box power:-)
Because everything about the KA730 microcode was "soft", it's fairly easy
to change the CPU microcode, update the console TU58 and reboot to change
the CPU behavior. I believe DEC even sold a set of microprogramming tools
for the 730, but I've never seen them and I don't know what's become of them
today.
Bob
12:52 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11730 (was Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11?)
Bob Armstrong wrote:
The bad news was that TU58s are really, really,
slow. With all the
I beg to differ. I remember booting standalone backup off a TU58 on a
VAX-11/750. Nearly an hour (including swapping cart once or twice).
"really, really slow" is being far, far too kind :-)
Because everything about the KA730 microcode was
"soft", it's
fairly easy
to change the CPU microcode, update the console TU58 and reboot to
change
the CPU behavior. I believe DEC even sold a set of microprogramming
tools
for the 730, but I've never seen them and I don't know what's become
of them today.
In one of the DEC Technical Journals, there's a description of the
work that was done to emulate a MicroVAX II before the hardware
was ready. They used a VAX-11/730 and reprogrammed it to be
a MicroVAX II (minus the bits that wouldn't fit, like some of the
floating point IIRC). It was good enough that they were confident
enough to redefine which instructions would not need to be
entirely done in hardware.
Reading between the lines, the microcode development stuff
was already "stale" by then. Finding it now would be a
challenge I would think!
Antonio
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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05/02/2008 20:57
2:39 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11730 (was Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11?)
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 08:12:11AM -0800, Bob Armstrong wrote:
That all sounds familiar.
Ethan Dicks
wrote:
The 11/730 (and 11/725) has an on-board FEP - an
8085. You talk to
it much in the same way as you do to the LSI-11 in an 11/780, except
its console medium is TU58 tape, not RX01 disk. Syntactically, though,
I believe it's similar (I know the KA730 well, but not the KA780).
Indeed, the 730 CFE (Console Front End or FEP) was very much like the 780
- the commands were similar and the 730 even used indirect command files for
functions like booting and power up loading of microcode. All the
microstore on the 730 was RAM; the only ROM was a little EPROM that booted
the 8085 operating system from the console TU58. Everything else - all the
CPU microcode, the microcode for the IDC (integrated disk controller) the
FPA microcode, and VMB - were all loaded from the TU58. Although the 8085
operating system was some custom thing DEC wrote themselves, the TU58s used
an RT11 file system (again, just like the 780) and you could easily
manipulate them with EXCHANGE or FILEX. The bad news was that TU58s are really, really,
slow. With all the
microcode and indirect files that had to be read from the TU58, your 730
could easily take ten minutes from power on to the point where VMB was even
ready to start thinking about loading VMS. When working on one, you want to
do everything you can to avoid turning off the CPU box power:-)
Using the stock console tapes from DEC, that was absolutely true. One of
the scripts I wrote a while back, built a load-order optimized console tape.
I think the 8085 must cache the directory, since the tape doesn't seek back
to the directory blocks between each file. With the files in the right order,
the file transfer time doesn't change, but the file-to-file time is just about
nil (I think there may be one seek from end-to-end because of how many files
there are to read and the block interleave on the tape).
Because everything about the KA730 microcode was
"soft", it's fairly easy
to change the CPU microcode, update the console TU58 and reboot to change
the CPU behavior. I believe DEC even sold a set of microprogramming tools
for the 730, but I've never seen them and I don't know what's become of them
today.
Back in the day, I remember occasionally seeing docs on PDP-11 microcoding,
but I don't recall seeing anything for any model of VAX.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Feb-2008 at 19:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -48.6 F (-44.8 C) Windchill -75.5 F (-59.7 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 8.2 kts Grid 50 Barometer 675.4 mb (10802 ft)
Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
3:23 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11730 (was Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11?)
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 08:12:11AM -0800, Bob
Armstrong wrote:
I've seen the tools for a /780 and have a copy of the manual for it
somewhere, but have never heard of them for the /730.
I think the manual for the /780 tools is over on bitsavers.
--
roger ivie
rivie at ridgenet.net
Because everything about the KA730 microcode
was "soft", it's fairly easy
to change the CPU microcode, update the console TU58 and reboot to change
the CPU behavior. I believe DEC even sold a set of microprogramming tools
for the 730, but I've never seen them and I don't know what's become of them
today.
Back in the day, I remember occasionally seeing docs on PDP-11 microcoding,
but I don't recall seeing anything for any model of VAX. 
7 Feb
7 Feb
6:12 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11730 (was Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11?)
On 07/02/2008, at 6:39 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Back in the day, I remember occasionally seeing docs on PDP-11
microcoding,
but I don't recall seeing anything for any model of VAX.
I used to have (and may still have somewhere) the VAX-11/780
microcode manuals - we'd planned to add some extra instructions to
speed up an application so I investigated this. In the end we just
waited and got a faster VAX :-)
Totally off topic but Ethan did you have a chance to look at the
eclipse today? Typical Melbourne weather cloudy most of the
afternoon :-(
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia | air, the sky would be painted green"
2 Mar
2 Mar
10:32 p.m.
New subject: DEC Infoserver 100
Is it possible to network boot Ultrix onto a VS3100 from an Infoserver
100? I found a webpage that talks about loading ISL_SVAXxxx.SYS to boot
VMS from, but nothing equivalent for Ultrix.
Clint
5 Feb
5 Feb
9:14 p.m.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
The VAX-11/750 currently in my basement certainly
doesn't have a PDP-8
installed in it. Pictures:
I'm not aware of any VAXen with a PDP-8 front end. The odd PDP-8 rumor
that I always heard was the the 11/780 had a secret, undocumented PDP-8
emulation mode, just because the guy that wrote the microcode liked
PDP-8s. I always suspected this was an urban legend, or a corruption of
the rumor about how software development for the DECmate started out on
a PDP-11/60 that was microcoded with a PDP-8 emulator (don't really know
if *that* one is true, either).
--
roger ivie
rivie at ridgenet.net
10:32 p.m.
At 09:14 PM 2/5/2008, Roger Ivie wrote:
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
That's the first I've heard of a PDP-8 mode of the 780.
As far as the 11/60 emulator rumor, that one is true. Some of the WPS-8
software development (in Merrimack, NH IIRC) was done on an 11/60 with
PDP-8 emulator microcode.
-Rick
The VAX-11/750 currently in my basement certainly
doesn't have a PDP-8
installed in it. Pictures:
I'm not aware of any VAXen with a PDP-8 front end. The odd PDP-8 rumor
that I always heard was the the 11/780 had a secret, undocumented PDP-8
emulation mode, just because the guy that wrote the microcode liked
PDP-8s. I always suspected this was an urban legend, or a corruption of
the rumor about how software development for the DECmate started out on
a PDP-11/60 that was microcoded with a PDP-8 emulator (don't really know
if *that* one is true, either). 
6 Feb
6 Feb
1:16 p.m.
Dan Gahlinger wrote:
what are you talking about?
Vax existed before 1976 dude, where the hell have you been?
ever heard of the Vax 11/750 ? You know, the one with the PDP-8 FEP ?
You obviously have NO clue what you're talking about.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! *plonk*
Peace... Sridhar
5985
days inactive
6016
days old
19 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
arcarlini＠iee.org -
bdwheele＠indiana.edu -
bob＠jfcl.com -
cctech＠vax-11.org -
chd_1＠nktelco.net -
dgahling＠hotmail.com -
dundas＠caltech.edu -
ethan.dicks＠usap.gov -
huw.davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rick＠rickmurphy.net -
rivie＠ridgenet.net -
rtellason＠verizon.net -
tshoppa＠wmata.com