21 Sep
2014
21 Sep
'14
3:59 p.m.
You may want to try to find a copy of the presentation Malcolm gave at VCF
East 9.1
(see : http://www.vintage.org/2014/east/session.php#218)
It's actually on-line at :
http://www.avitech.com.au/disk-imaging/disk-imaging-vcfe-2014.pdf
It had lots of good details and info on a system that he set up and
demonstrated at the session.
Earl
21 Sep
21 Sep
4:54 p.m.
Earl,
Thanks. I saw that (linked through Bill's site). I agree a lot of good info. The
Adaptec card is an interesting choice. I would not have suspected it to be that capable. I
am planning on using a CompatiCard which does both SD and DD 8" drives. I just need
to get my hand on a nice 8" drive.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
Of Earl Baugh
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 3:59 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
You may want to try to find a copy of the presentation Malcolm gave at VCF East 9.1 (see :
http://www.vintage.org/2014/east/session.php#218)
It's actually on-line at :
http://www.avitech.com.au/disk-imaging/disk-imaging-vcfe-2014.pdf
It had lots of good details and info on a system that he set up and demonstrated at the
session.
Earl
6:18 p.m.
On 09/21/2014 04:54 PM, Ali wrote:
Earl,
Thanks. I saw that (linked through Bill's site). I agree a lot of
good info. The Adaptec card is an interesting choice. I would not
have suspected it to be that capable. I am planning on using a
CompatiCard which does both SD and DD 8" drives. I just need to get
my hand on a nice 8" drive.
Careful that that Compaticard is a CC IV, and not a I or II. As the
latter came out before the 5170, the port conventions are different from
the standard AT-type and the CC IV. You will probably be disappointed
if you use the CC I or II.
Regarding Adaptec SCSI cards with floppy controllers. The magic device
is the National Semi DP8473 FDC. It's also present on some Future
Domain 16-bit ISA controllers, as well as Ultrastor and some DTC ones.
One cute trick that I thought I reported on is that the 8473 has
fully-decoded 4 drive support--and is capable of driving a floppy with
no added buffering. Just a matter of bringing the drive select leads
out. Both the DTC and Ultrastor controllers do this using some unused
pins on the floppy connector for the added motor and drive selects. It's
quite easy to add a small couple of wires to the Future Domain cards to
provide the same 3rd drive (on the same cable) support. The Tulin 3rd
floppy driver can be used with DOS.
Naturally, utilities that use direct hardware access don't care about
BIOS support or drivers. E.g., 22Disk and IMD will work just fine with
a third drive.
One other interesting tidbit is that some of the DTC controllers have a
couple of jumper blocks to allow 4 drives on the same cable. The gotcha
is that drives are all configured for a "flat" cable and each uses a
different drive select. Motor control is the same for all 4
drives--turn one motor on, they all come on. A fair compromise for
convenience.
--Chuck
8:35 p.m.
Chuck,
I have both a CompatiCard II and a CC IV. My plan actually was to use the CC II on a 5160
system which I have the top open all the time. As I understand it the CC II should work as
a secondary FDC in the 5160 without issues. I was going to setup the 8" drive as a
3rd FDD. Does that sound right or am I setting myself up for disappointment? Anything I
need to watch out for? TIA.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 6:19 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
On 09/21/2014 04:54 PM, Ali wrote:
Earl,
Thanks. I saw that (linked through Bill's site). I agree a lot of good
info. The Adaptec card is an interesting choice. I would not have
suspected it to be that capable. I am planning on using a CompatiCard
which does both SD and DD 8" drives. I just need to get my hand on a
nice 8" drive.
Careful that that Compaticard is a CC IV, and not a I or II. As the latter came out
before the 5170, the port conventions are different from the standard AT-type and the CC
IV. You will probably be disappointed if you use the CC I or II.
Regarding Adaptec SCSI cards with floppy controllers. The magic device is the National
Semi DP8473 FDC. It's also present on some Future Domain 16-bit ISA controllers, as
well as Ultrastor and some DTC ones.
One cute trick that I thought I reported on is that the 8473 has fully-decoded 4 drive
support--and is capable of driving a floppy with no added buffering. Just a matter of
bringing the drive select leads out. Both the DTC and Ultrastor controllers do this using
some unused pins on the floppy connector for the added motor and drive selects. It's
quite easy to add a small couple of wires to the Future Domain cards to provide the same
3rd drive (on the same cable) support. The Tulin 3rd floppy driver can be used with DOS.
Naturally, utilities that use direct hardware access don't care about BIOS support or
drivers. E.g., 22Disk and IMD will work just fine with a third drive.
One other interesting tidbit is that some of the DTC controllers have a couple of jumper
blocks to allow 4 drives on the same cable. The gotcha is that drives are all configured
for a "flat" cable and each uses a different drive select. Motor control is the
same for all 4 drives--turn one motor on, they all come on. A fair compromise for
convenience.
--Chuck
22 Sep
22 Sep
2:57 a.m.
I have both a CompatiCard II and a CC IV. My plan actually was to use the
CC II on a 5160 system which I have the top open all the time. As I
understand it the CC II should work as a secondary FDC in the 5160 without
issues. I was going to setup the 8" drive as a 3rd FDD. Does that sound
right or am I setting myself up for disappointment? Anything I need to
watch out for? TIA.
-Ali
A few years ago I managed to have an 8" DSDD YE-data drive on the CC IV.
After formatting as a systems disk, I could even boot MS-DOS 3.something
from it. I used it (also) together with the Uniform
software to read CP/M
and IBM 3740 floppies. No problems encountered.
While we are talking about the CC IV, I saw one lately on e-bay, sold for
150 US$. Would that still be an obtainable price?
/Nico
7:29 a.m.
On 09/21/2014 08:35 PM, Ali wrote:
I have both a CompatiCard II and a CC IV. My plan
actually was to use
the CC II on a 5160 system which I have the top open all the time. As
I understand it the CC II should work as a secondary FDC in the 5160
without issues. I was going to setup the 8" drive as a 3rd FDD. Does
that sound right or am I setting myself up for disappointment?
Anything I need to watch out for? TIA.
Ali,
The point I was trying to make about the CC I and II is that the
operation of the density select register is completely unknown to
utilities such as ImageDisk, since it's in a non-conventional place
(IIRC, if the controller base port address is 0x3f2, the density select
register is 0x7f2--and the meaning of the register bits themselves is
different. 22Disk can handle the controller if you indicate it in the
DISKETTE.CFG file, but it--and Microsolutions own products and drivers
are the only other programs that do.
Also, to your list of controllers, don't forget the XT-FDC project over
at Erik's Vintage Computer Forum. There are PCBs available--and that
one even has a 50-pin header for connecting 8" drives.
--Chuck
12:10 p.m.
Chuck,
Thank you for clarifying that. I was not aware of that particular issue. So is this only
an issue when trying to use a HD drive (e.g. 5.25" HD or an 8" DD made to
simulate 5.25" HD) or can the card be used at least as a secondary controller for SD
drives (e.g. 5.25" 320K/360K and 3.5" 720K)? Also does this apply if I set the
drive as type 4 w/ CCDRIVER.SYS? I.E. is Type 4 considered HD even though it is to deal
with SD and DD 8" drives?
Speaking of the DISKETTE.CFG file I ran across your "Notes for Micro Solutions
CompatiCard(tm) Users" while searching the web for more info on this. I wish I had
seen it first as you clearly state the HD issue in there. I will try contacting Dave
Dunfield and see if he can/is willing to support the CC II in his program. I got the
impression from reading that document that all old Sydex products used that CFG file (e.g.
Teledisk).
I have been following the XT-FDC on and off but I thought it was still in the design and
testing phase. I had asked if it would be possible to combine it with a XT-IDE for an AIO
controller (i.e. FDD and IDE HDD/CF) but there wasn't much support for that. Is there
another run of PCBs planned? Also, I have no idea how much PCBs cost, but was cost the
reason not to go with 3/4 length board?
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 7:29 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
Ali,
The point I was trying to make about the CC I and II is that the operation of the density
select register is completely unknown to utilities such as ImageDisk, since it's in a
non-conventional place (IIRC, if the controller base port address is 0x3f2, the density
select register is 0x7f2--and the meaning of the register bits themselves is different.
22Disk can handle the controller if you indicate it in the DISKETTE.CFG file, but it--and
Microsolutions own products and drivers are the only other programs that do.
Also, to your list of controllers, don't forget the XT-FDC project over at Erik's
Vintage Computer Forum. There are PCBs available--and that one even has a 50-pin header
for connecting 8" drives.
--Chuck
1:10 p.m.
On 09/22/2014 12:10 PM, Ali wrote:
Thank you for clarifying that. I was not aware of that
particular
issue. So is this only an issue when trying to use a HD drive (e.g.
5.25" HD or an 8" DD made to simulate 5.25" HD) or can the card be
used at least as a secondary controller for SD drives (e.g. 5.25"
320K/360K and 3.5" 720K)? Also does this apply if I set the drive as
type 4 w/ CCDRIVER.SYS? I.E. is Type 4 considered HD even though it
is to deal with SD and DD 8" drives?
I'm not sure what you mean by "SD", which to me means FM. But if you're
talking about 250Kb/sec MFM "low" density, then yes, I believe so. As
for the rest, the CC I/II manual is your best guide--I've got one here
somewhere, probably buried. AFAIK, all 8" drives operate in
high-density (500Kb/sec) mode--the big difference is that some systems
use FM instead of MFM encoding. As far as I am aware, *all* PC/MS-DOS
systems use MFM encoding on floppies. Indeed, the original 5150 FDC
(and many later ones) are incapable of reading or writing FM.
Speaking of the DISKETTE.CFG file I ran across your
"Notes for Micro
Solutions CompatiCard(tm) Users" while searching the web for more
info on this. I wish I had seen it first as you clearly state the HD
issue in there. I will try contacting Dave Dunfield and see if he
can/is willing to support the CC II in his program. I got the
impression from reading that document that all old Sydex products
used that CFG file (e.g. Teledisk).
Pretty much, since most use the same library.
I have been following the XT-FDC on and off but I
thought it was
still in the design and testing phase. I had asked if it would be
possible to combine it with a XT-IDE for an AIO controller (i.e. FDD
and IDE HDD/CF) but there wasn't much support for that. Is there
another run of PCBs planned? Also, I have no idea how much PCBs cost,
but was cost the reason not to go with 3/4 length board?
There was one revision to the PCB artwork, not so much as to changing
the circuitry, but rather correcting a couple of nits and repositioning
things a bit. The original pretty much worked as advertised.
--Chuck
3749
days inactive
3750
days old
7 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠fahimi.net -
earl＠baugh.org -
nico＠farumdata.dk