3 Aug
2005
3 Aug
'05
11:52 a.m.
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch at
30below.com>
Hi
There was once a show in California called The West
Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one
of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They
had a really nice mix of large vendors and small
companies. Some even just had exhibits without any
specific sales ( they did advertise ).
Over the years, it did evolve and then died. First
I think it was that the fellow that originally ran it
sold it out. This meant that it was intended to be
a solid profit operation. No more loss leaders ( ask
a successful retailer what a loss leader is ).
Another thing happened at about the same time. Strong
union forces in San Francisco force the shows to only
use union riggers to move material from docks to displays.
There was no way the little interesting exhibits could
afford this.
What the owners of the show didn't realize then was
that they should have subsidized the smaller exhibits.
It quickly because another trade show that one couldn't
get their company to pay one to go to. No one would
want to go there just for hobby sake any more.
Let the Vintage Computer Fair evolve but remember that
it is intended to be a hobby related show. It should
be enjoyable for all that go there.
From my past experience, there are several changes I'd
make. First, I'd restrict the size of exhibits to not
much more than equipment size. I'm not much into museum
exhibits for these kinds of shows. If people are
interested in something, they should stop and talk to
the exhibitor. The display should not distract from
the machines and information ( despite trends I've seen
at the recent festivals ). If I was expecting such
empty presentations, I'd go to the Tech Museum in
San Jose or the Intel Museum ( I've only been to each
once and see no reason to return ).
Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not
in the aisles that the public use. There should be
a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with
the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF.
I realize that it is a space issue. I also realize that
some like the "crowd pleaser exhibits" that use several
tables to display a few items. I have no problem
with large exhibits like the analytical engine or the
Dec machine. I just feel that space should be used
more to create interaction between exhibitors
and visitors and not so much to create the one pass
Tech Museum type exhibits.
As for collecting from exhibitors, I have no issue
other than making it clearer to the exhibitors that
they'll have to pay such fees. The first time it was
a surprise to me as well. The fee amount wasn't an
issue.
Just my thoughts
Dwight
I see no reason VCF events should not also evolve.
Well, if you're talking VCF explicitly, I think that would be up to Sellam,
Pat, Hans and other that actually put them on. Others are certainly
entitled to start their own venues and set their own rules.
I can say one thing: If the VCF's evolve in the direction you're hinting
at, I'll bow out now, because I don't know if I'd have the same
"intestinal
fortitude" Sellam has to get the ball rolling on a similar project, and the
"New and Improved" VCF would be no fun for me whatsoever.
3 Aug
3 Aug
5:56 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update?
Hi
There was once a show in California called The West
Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one
of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They
had a really nice mix of large vendors and small
companies. Some even just had exhibits without any
specific sales ( they did advertise ).
Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can
you tell me more about how it was similar to and different
from VCF East 1 or 2?
I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding
of VCF events.
Over the years, it did evolve and then died. First
I think it was that the fellow that originally ran it
sold it out. This meant that it was intended to be
a solid profit operation. No more loss leaders ( ask
a successful retailer what a loss leader is ).
I think we all know what loss leaders are, they are products
you carry in order to make more profits from the other products
you carry.
You carry a loss leader because if you don't, your customers
will do their business with someone who does, and you
will loose profits. Loss leaders are all about profit.
Another thing happened at about the same time. Strong
union forces in San Francisco force the shows to only
use union riggers to move material from docks to displays.
There was no way the little interesting exhibits could
afford this.
Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a
bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your
system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here)
What the owners of the show didn't realize then
was
that they should have subsidized the smaller exhibits.
It quickly because another trade show that one couldn't
get their company to pay one to go to. No one would
want to go there just for hobby sake any more.
I don't think anyone wants to see VCF's become like trade
shows. That would be a disaster, no question.
But does anyone really need to subsidize a $10 fee? The cold
equations suggest that at $10, you already got a good deal.
Some exhibits might eat that just in power over a 2 day show!
But think about what we are collecting. Real vintage mini's
and some microcomputers are historically very similar to
antique steam and early gas engines. They are machines that
made a huge impact on society, an impact at least as large as
the first industrial revolution (brought on by those vintage engines).
Another collectable from the first industrial revolution are vintage
pocket watches. Once the engines moved workers from the
fields to the factories, they needed to get them there on time and
the mass production watch came to be.
Let the Vintage Computer Fair evolve but remember
that
it is intended to be a hobby related show. It should
be enjoyable for all that go there.
Have you ever seen a vintage engine show? Or a NAWCC show?
How about a vintage car show? They are all very different from
todays VCF event from what I've seen.
Vintage computers are very historically important inventions.
They need to be preserved because of their intrinsic value.
Maybe most people today collect and restore these machines
as a hobby. But thats also true for pocket watch collectors and
even vintage engine collectors too. A minority of these collectors
do this professionally. Hobby or not, at some point the financial
value of our beloved machines will reflect their intrinsic value.
This is already effecting our hobby. Its a fact of life, IMO.
No one had ever suggested that the shows should be fun.
Some have suggested that they could be even more fun.
Clearly people that go to a classic car show don't go there to have
a bad time.
From my past experience, there are several changes
I'd
make. First, I'd restrict the size of exhibits to not
much more than equipment size. I'm not much into museum
exhibits for these kinds of shows. If people are
interested in something, they should stop and talk to
the exhibitor. The display should not distract from
the machines and information ( despite trends I've seen
at the recent festivals ). If I was expecting such
empty presentations, I'd go to the Tech Museum in
San Jose or the Intel Museum ( I've only been to each
once and see no reason to return ).
Isn't a big part of the reason for VCF events to spread the
hobby to others? Maybe your not much into museum
exhibits, but didn't you say it should be enjoyable for all
who attend?
I think exhibits are needed that make vintage computing accessible
to people.
You should have heard some of the questions, and absolute
wonder that came from some of the Sun programmers who had
never seen a blinkinlights CPU before.
I really should have had a canned presentation that explains
how front panels are used, and how vintage systems were
bootstrapped, etc.
This simple technology has become totally forign to todays
techies. So why not make this stuff accessible, even to non
technical people who attend?
Or am I missing your point here totally?
Why restrict the exhibits? How does this make the show more
enjoyable for all?
Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not
in the aisles that the public use. There should be
a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with
the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF.
Good point.
At VCF East 1.0, exhibitors were mixed with the rest.
But I really did not see that as a problem.
But at VCF Ease 2.0, we had space behind the tables, and
there was even room to place chairs in front of consoles so
that people could sit and actually use some of the exhibits.
Clearly thats better, space permitting of course.
I realize that it is a space issue. I also realize
that
some like the "crowd pleaser exhibits" that use several
tables to display a few items. I have no problem
with large exhibits like the analytical engine or the
Dec machine. I just feel that space should be used
more to create interaction between exhibitors
and visitors and not so much to create the one pass
Tech Museum type exhibits.
I think this is really up to the design of the exhibit, not the
people running the show.
In fact at VCF East 1.0 a PDP-12 was playing spacewar.
This was set up as a free-standing, hands-on exhibit.
As for collecting from exhibitors, I have no issue
other than making it clearer to the exhibitors that
they'll have to pay such fees. The first time it was
a surprise to me as well. The fee amount wasn't an
issue.
Just my thoughts
Dwight
I totally agree with the last point, whatever arrangement
is needed to 'go on with the show' is fine. People really
should not be sup by this. Its always been clear to
me during the registration process.
6:12 p.m.
>> Interesting, I've never heard of this show
before now.
The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was
the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history
after shutting down a couple of years ago.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Bob Shannon
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:56 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update?
Hi
There was once a show in California called The West
Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one
of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They
had a really nice mix of large vendors and small
companies. Some even just had exhibits without any
specific sales ( they did advertise ).
Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can
you tell me more about how it was similar to and different
from VCF East 1 or 2?
I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding
of VCF events.
Over the years, it did evolve and then died. First
I think it was that the fellow that originally ran it
sold it out. This meant that it was intended to be
a solid profit operation. No more loss leaders ( ask
a successful retailer what a loss leader is ).
I think we all know what loss leaders are, they are products
you carry in order to make more profits from the other products
you carry.
You carry a loss leader because if you don't, your customers
will do their business with someone who does, and you
will loose profits. Loss leaders are all about profit.
Another thing happened at about the same time. Strong
union forces in San Francisco force the shows to only
use union riggers to move material from docks to displays.
There was no way the little interesting exhibits could
afford this.
Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a
bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your
system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here)
What the owners of the show didn't realize then
was
that they should have subsidized the smaller exhibits.
It quickly because another trade show that one couldn't
get their company to pay one to go to. No one would
want to go there just for hobby sake any more.
I don't think anyone wants to see VCF's become like trade
shows. That would be a disaster, no question.
But does anyone really need to subsidize a $10 fee? The cold
equations suggest that at $10, you already got a good deal.
Some exhibits might eat that just in power over a 2 day show!
But think about what we are collecting. Real vintage mini's
and some microcomputers are historically very similar to
antique steam and early gas engines. They are machines that
made a huge impact on society, an impact at least as large as
the first industrial revolution (brought on by those vintage engines).
Another collectable from the first industrial revolution are vintage
pocket watches. Once the engines moved workers from the
fields to the factories, they needed to get them there on time and
the mass production watch came to be.
Let the Vintage Computer Fair evolve but remember
that
it is intended to be a hobby related show. It should
be enjoyable for all that go there.
Have you ever seen a vintage engine show? Or a NAWCC show?
How about a vintage car show? They are all very different from
todays VCF event from what I've seen.
Vintage computers are very historically important inventions.
They need to be preserved because of their intrinsic value.
Maybe most people today collect and restore these machines
as a hobby. But thats also true for pocket watch collectors and
even vintage engine collectors too. A minority of these collectors
do this professionally. Hobby or not, at some point the financial
value of our beloved machines will reflect their intrinsic value.
This is already effecting our hobby. Its a fact of life, IMO.
No one had ever suggested that the shows should be fun.
Some have suggested that they could be even more fun.
Clearly people that go to a classic car show don't go there to have
a bad time.
From my past experience, there are several changes
I'd
make. First, I'd restrict the size of exhibits to not
much more than equipment size. I'm not much into museum
exhibits for these kinds of shows. If people are
interested in something, they should stop and talk to
the exhibitor. The display should not distract from
the machines and information ( despite trends I've seen
at the recent festivals ). If I was expecting such
empty presentations, I'd go to the Tech Museum in
San Jose or the Intel Museum ( I've only been to each
once and see no reason to return ).
Isn't a big part of the reason for VCF events to spread the
hobby to others? Maybe your not much into museum
exhibits, but didn't you say it should be enjoyable for all
who attend?
I think exhibits are needed that make vintage computing accessible
to people.
You should have heard some of the questions, and absolute
wonder that came from some of the Sun programmers who had
never seen a blinkinlights CPU before.
I really should have had a canned presentation that explains
how front panels are used, and how vintage systems were
bootstrapped, etc.
This simple technology has become totally forign to todays
techies. So why not make this stuff accessible, even to non
technical people who attend?
Or am I missing your point here totally?
Why restrict the exhibits? How does this make the show more
enjoyable for all?
Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not
in the aisles that the public use. There should be
a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with
the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF.
Good point.
At VCF East 1.0, exhibitors were mixed with the rest.
But I really did not see that as a problem.
But at VCF Ease 2.0, we had space behind the tables, and
there was even room to place chairs in front of consoles so
that people could sit and actually use some of the exhibits.
Clearly thats better, space permitting of course.
I realize that it is a space issue. I also realize
that
some like the "crowd pleaser exhibits" that use several
tables to display a few items. I have no problem
with large exhibits like the analytical engine or the
Dec machine. I just feel that space should be used
more to create interaction between exhibitors
and visitors and not so much to create the one pass
Tech Museum type exhibits.
I think this is really up to the design of the exhibit, not the
people running the show.
In fact at VCF East 1.0 a PDP-12 was playing spacewar.
This was set up as a free-standing, hands-on exhibit.
As for collecting from exhibitors, I have no issue
other than making it clearer to the exhibitors that
they'll have to pay such fees. The first time it was
a surprise to me as well. The fee amount wasn't an
issue.
Just my thoughts
Dwight
I totally agree with the last point, whatever arrangement
is needed to 'go on with the show' is fine. People really
should not be sup by this. Its always been clear to
me during the registration process.
6:19 p.m.
Doh!
From the context I thought we were talking about a past
series
of vintage computer shows, not vintage shows of then current
computers!
Have there ever been any shows of vintage computer hardware
other than the VCF events?
----- Original Message -----
From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" <news at
computercollector.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update?
>>
Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now.
The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was
the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history
after shutting down a couple of years ago.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire
7:24 p.m.
Yes, we've been building up the vintage computer section of the MGC every
year for the past 4 years (and I've also asked list members to partake,
as well as ask to have us host the Midwest VCF). The show is for vintage
to present, and covers computers, pins/em's, video coin-ops, and home
video game consoles. We had 1300 in attendance over the two days last
year, and took this year off to deal with the growth and plan for even
more growth next year.
Consequently, we'll be back in 2006 (June 3rd and 4th) and moving the show
to an actual resort to make it an entire weekend "destination" event
(perfect for those of us with families, etc.) Roughly 20,500 square feet
to work with. Olympia, Wisconsin - about 30-45 minutes outside of
Milwaukee.
Marty
Doh!
From the context I thought we were talking about a
past series
of vintage computer shows, not vintage shows of then current
computers!
Have there ever been any shows of vintage computer hardware
other than the VCF events?
----- Original Message -----
From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" <news at
computercollector.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update?
>>
Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now.
The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was
the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history
after shutting down a couple of years ago.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire
4 Aug
4 Aug
11:57 a.m.
And thusly Martin Scott Goldberg spake:
Yes, we've been building up the vintage computer section of the MGC every
year for the past 4 years (and I've also asked list members to partake,
as well as ask to have us host the Midwest VCF). The show is for vintage
to present, and covers computers, pins/em's, video coin-ops, and home
video game consoles. We had 1300 in attendance over the two days last
year, and took this year off to deal with the growth and plan for even
more growth next year.
Consequently, we'll be back in 2006 (June 3rd and 4th) and moving the show
to an actual resort to make it an entire weekend "destination" event
(perfect for those of us with families, etc.) Roughly 20,500 square feet
to work with. Olympia, Wisconsin - about 30-45 minutes outside of
Milwaukee.
website? :)
Cheers,
Bryan
3 Aug
3 Aug
7:03 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
>>> Interesting, I've never heard of this
show before now.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of
computer history! It was
the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history
after shutting down a couple of years ago.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire
WRONG! WRONG!
AMATEUR, INACCURATE SOURCE.
That says that Comdex was a renaming/transformation of WCCF.
THAT IS FALSE.
Comdex started independently of WCCF in about 1981? (first that I went to
(NOT the first one, it was already bigger than NCC) was 1983), and for
about 10 years they were in active competition, with both getting
larger and larger, and then WCCF stopped growing, but Comdex continued to
get bigger for a while. WCCF was a dim remnant of its former glory when
Interface Group (Comdex) finally bought it and killed it.
I may very well be misrecollecting McGraw Hill v Prentice Hall. But
Shelley Adelson was NOT EITHER. He owned the Sands, and built the
Bellagio. He owned Comdex, and had the power to prevent exhibitors from
renting meeting rooms anywhere in town, or sometimes even suites, without
going through him. One taxi driver in Vegas said, "the reason there's no
mafia in town any more is cause they're scared of Adelson" :-)
In 1988? there was a trivial news story about some Interface Group
execs who went to a "gentlemen's club", bought the "special bottle of
wine", and didn't get laid; the place burned down the next day.
Also, the 8th WCCF (1983) was NOT the last one. Maybe the last GOOD one.
It continued to about 13th!
In 1986, I started to exhibit at Comdex, and for quite a few years
was exhibiting at BOTH.
BTW, I have some Comdex show directories if anybody collects them.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
7:17 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
Hmm... moral: never trust Wikipedia without doing your own homework!
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:03 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
>>> Interesting, I've never heard of this
show before now.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of
computer history! It
was the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer
history after shutting down a couple of years ago.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire
WRONG! WRONG!
AMATEUR, INACCURATE SOURCE.
That says that Comdex was a renaming/transformation of WCCF.
THAT IS FALSE.
Comdex started independently of WCCF in about 1981? (first that I went to
(NOT the first one, it was already bigger than NCC) was 1983), and for about
10 years they were in active competition, with both getting larger and
larger, and then WCCF stopped growing, but Comdex continued to get bigger
for a while. WCCF was a dim remnant of its former glory when Interface
Group (Comdex) finally bought it and killed it.
I may very well be misrecollecting McGraw Hill v Prentice Hall. But Shelley
Adelson was NOT EITHER. He owned the Sands, and built the Bellagio. He
owned Comdex, and had the power to prevent exhibitors from renting meeting
rooms anywhere in town, or sometimes even suites, without going through him.
One taxi driver in Vegas said, "the reason there's no mafia in town any more
is cause they're scared of Adelson" :-) In 1988? there was a trivial news
story about some Interface Group execs who went to a "gentlemen's club",
bought the "special bottle of wine", and didn't get laid; the place burned
down the next day.
Also, the 8th WCCF (1983) was NOT the last one. Maybe the last GOOD one.
It continued to about 13th!
In 1986, I started to exhibit at Comdex, and for quite a few years was
exhibiting at BOTH.
BTW, I have some Comdex show directories if anybody collects them.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:31 p.m.
Bob Shannon wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update?
> Hi
> There was once a show in California called The West
> Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one
> of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They
> had a really nice mix of large vendors and small
> companies. Some even just had exhibits without any
> specific sales ( they did advertise ).
Back when all our crap was new, there was a show that may
be this one held in San Mateo. I recall the Bill Godbout auctions
for the extras from the factory, and all the vendors having
exhibits, and stuff for sale.
We all need time machines to go back to this show, stock up,
and make a fortune on ebay, or be the best at VCF with perfect
stuff from that show!.
Several of us got tickets on Air California (now long gone, part
of AA) and flew up for the Saturday. Biggest challenge was the
guy who organize the trip was of the type who thought Rent a Wreck
was too expensive. Got unlimited milage, gas included for $11 for
the day.
anyway I don't recall what it was called, maybe it was this one,
or someone of the bay area people on the list will know what
show that was. It would have been from 78 to 84 or so, there
was no PC at all at the time we first went.
Jim
7:17 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (was: VCF Midwest update?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote:
WCCF was never in San Mateo.
Perhaps John Craig's Computer Swap (usually in San Jose)
or Computer Swap America?
There were at least 4 outfits that had swaps at San Mateo County
Fairgrounds.
My favorite was the time that Shugart showed up with a tractor trailer of
"administrative returns", prototypes!, trade show samples, etc.
> There was
once a show in California called The West
> Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one
> of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They
> had a really nice mix of large vendors and small
> companies. Some even just had exhibits without any
> specific sales ( they did advertise ).
Back when all our crap was new, there was a show that may
be this one held in San Mateo. I recall the Bill Godbout auctions
for the extras from the factory, and all the vendors having
exhibits, and stuff for sale.
6:34 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
There was once
a show in California called The West
Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one
of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They
had a really nice mix of large vendors and small
companies. Some even just had exhibits without any
specific sales ( they did advertise ).
Interesting, I've never heard of this show before
now. Can
you tell me more about how it was similar to and different
from VCF East 1 or 2?
I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding
of VCF events.
West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e')
was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren
(think Intelligent Machines Journal, Dr. Dobbs, etc.)
He's a big guy, and rolled around the shows on roller skates.
There was no significant differentiation between exhibitors, attendees,
and staff.
The 1st one was San Francisco? (I missed that one)
The 2nd one was in San Jose (and resembled VCF)
The 3rd one was in Anaheim (and started to look like a trade show)
(exhibitors and staff started being differentiated from attendees)
The 4th one was in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium (SF) (1st one I
exhibited at)
They also started a spinoff show of "PC Faire"
After a bunch of years in Brooks/Civic, filling the whole place, including
selling booth space in the balcony of Civic, and in the hallway outside
the crappers, Jim sold the show to McGraw Hill.
Exhibitors, attendees, and staff became three separate groups.
Apple objected to the number of non-Apple booths and pulled out. Some
Apple people insist on calling the WCCF "PC Faire", because it was not
exclusively Apple.
After McGraw Hill mismanaged it for a few years, including trying to hold
it in Moscone Hall, they sold the show to Interface Group (Comdex).
Staff became a separate entity, with exhibitors and attendees lumped
together.
If you wanted carpet in your booth, you had to either rent it from the
show management for $75 for the weekend, or pay them $75 to unroll yours.
We had one nut that wasn't a wing-nut in our booth - it cost us $70 to get
caught using a wrench to tighten it.
The show got smaller, and almost as expensive as Comdex; exhibitors became
disgruntled. Some Apple people boycotted the show, and Apple ONLY shows
started up.
Show management stopped respecting seniority for booth selection priority.
I was tied for #1 on booth selection priority, and had a 10 x 10 corner
booth, when they rearranged the floorplan and reassigned all of the space
without consultation with exhibitors.
The show went under.
A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates
back on.
Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want
a
bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your
system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here)
7:02 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
Conversely, I -- like many of you, probably -- was too young for the
original WCCF but attended Comdex during the dot-com heyday. I went every
year from 98-2003 (or maybe it was 2002, whichever was the final year).
Along with CES in January, Comdex filled up every hotel room in Vegas, had
mutliple hundreds (thousands?) of exhibitors, and probably neared 100,000
attendees in its biggest years of the late 1990s/early 2000s. Working for
PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous Spencer Katt parties.
But in those last two or three years, we all joked that could gauge the
show's success by the size of the cab lines, which went from intolerable to
a breeze.
Sorry for the OT, just reminiscing...
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:34 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote:
There was once
a show in California called The West Coast Computer
Fair. When it first started it was one of the most interesting shows
I've ever been to. They had a really nice mix of large vendors and
small companies. Some even just had exhibits without any specific
sales ( they did advertise ).
Interesting, I've never heard of this show before
now. Can you tell
me more about how it was similar to and different from VCF East 1 or
2?
I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding
of VCF events.
West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e') was started as
an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren (think Intelligent Machines
Journal, Dr. Dobbs, etc.) He's a big guy, and rolled around the shows on
roller skates.
There was no significant differentiation between exhibitors, attendees, and
staff.
The 1st one was San Francisco? (I missed that one)
The 2nd one was in San Jose (and resembled VCF)
The 3rd one was in Anaheim (and started to look like a trade show)
(exhibitors and staff started being differentiated from attendees)
The 4th one was in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium (SF) (1st one I
exhibited at)
They also started a spinoff show of "PC Faire"
After a bunch of years in Brooks/Civic, filling the whole place, including
selling booth space in the balcony of Civic, and in the hallway outside the
crappers, Jim sold the show to McGraw Hill.
Exhibitors, attendees, and staff became three separate groups.
Apple objected to the number of non-Apple booths and pulled out. Some Apple
people insist on calling the WCCF "PC Faire", because it was not exclusively
Apple.
After McGraw Hill mismanaged it for a few years, including trying to hold it
in Moscone Hall, they sold the show to Interface Group (Comdex).
Staff became a separate entity, with exhibitors and attendees lumped
together.
If you wanted carpet in your booth, you had to either rent it from the show
management for $75 for the weekend, or pay them $75 to unroll yours.
We had one nut that wasn't a wing-nut in our booth - it cost us $70 to get
caught using a wrench to tighten it.
The show got smaller, and almost as expensive as Comdex; exhibitors became
disgruntled. Some Apple people boycotted the show, and Apple ONLY shows
started up.
Show management stopped respecting seniority for booth selection priority.
I was tied for #1 on booth selection priority, and had a 10 x 10 corner
booth, when they rearranged the floorplan and reassigned all of the space
without consultation with exhibitors.
The show went under.
A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates
back on.
Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a
bunch of union
workers who may know nothing about your system moving it? (I'm
thinking mini's and larger stuff here)
7:23 p.m.
New subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
Conversely, I -- like many of you, probably -- was too
young for the
original WCCF but attended Comdex during the dot-com heyday. I went every
year from 98-2003 (or maybe it was 2002, whichever was the final year).
Along with CES in January, Comdex filled up every hotel room in Vegas, had
mutliple hundreds (thousands?) of exhibitors, and probably neared 100,000
attendees in its biggest years of the late 1990s/early 2000s. Working for
Comdex's peak size was in about 1989.
By 1994, it was starting to shrink, but they kept inflating the published
numbers.
2003 was the end. I attended from 1983 - 2002, and exhibited 1986 - 1992
PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous
Spencer Katt parties.
But in those last two or three years, we all joked that could gauge the
show's success by the size of the cab lines, which went from intolerable to
a breeze.
Sorry for the OT, just reminiscing...
It's too bad that you missed the years with parties in the UNLV stadium
(Temptation, Mitch Rider, etc.)
7:36 p.m.
New subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
>> hey kept inflating the published numbers.
Interesting... I guess they lied.
Of course, fun as Comdex was, it's no VCF! :)
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:23 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
Conversely, I -- like many of you, probably -- was too
young for the
original WCCF but attended Comdex during the dot-com heyday. I went
every year from 98-2003 (or maybe it was 2002, whichever was the final
year).
Along with CES in January, Comdex filled up every
hotel room in Vegas,
had mutliple hundreds (thousands?) of exhibitors, and probably neared
100,000 attendees in its biggest years of the late 1990s/early 2000s.
Working for
Comdex's peak size was in about 1989.
By 1994, it was starting to shrink, but they kept inflating the published
numbers.
2003 was the end. I attended from 1983 - 2002, and exhibited 1986 - 1992
PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous
Spencer Katt parties.
But in those last two or three years, we all joked that could gauge
the show's success by the size of the cab lines, which went from
intolerable to a breeze.
Sorry for the OT, just reminiscing...
It's too bad that you missed the years with parties in the UNLV stadium
(Temptation, Mitch Rider, etc.)
4 Aug
4 Aug
10:57 a.m.
New subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
That's right, and it never will be ;)
I think part of the reason I started the VCF was to live the thrill of the
WCCF which I was too young to attend. I was just getting in to computers
by the time they were waning. I did get to go to the last AppleFest in
SF. That was fun.
And remember, the 'F' in VCF is for "Festival", not "Faire"!
;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
>> hey
kept inflating the published numbers.
Interesting... I guess they lied.
Of course, fun as Comdex was, it's no VCF! :) 
3 Aug
3 Aug
8 p.m.
New subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
On 8/3/05, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Comdex's peak size was in about 1989.
I never made it, but my stuff did... I wrote the demo for "Wordvision
64" for Bruce and James Publishers. It first appeared at the Fall
1982 Comdex. It showed once or twice more before the company folded.
The demo was all there ever was for the C-64. They did sell the
PC-DOS (1.0!) version, but the C-64 version was pure vapor.
I always wanted to go, but Comdex was a long way from Ohio.
-ethan
8:19 p.m.
New subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
Anybody have any good photo's from those days, I think its Jim's
Computer Museum that had some up. I'm looking for any photo's of the
Atari booth's at the shows.
Curt
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 8/3/05, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
wrote:
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005
Comdex's peak size was in about 1989.
I never made it, but my stuff did... I wrote the demo for "Wordvision
64" for Bruce and James Publishers. It first appeared at the Fall
1982 Comdex. It showed once or twice more before the company folded.
The demo was all there ever was for the C-64. They did sell the
PC-DOS (1.0!) version, but the C-64 version was pure vapor.
I always wanted to go, but Comdex was a long way from Ohio.
-ethan
8:15 p.m.
New subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
Fred Cisin wrote:
...
> PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous
Spencer Katt parties.
Huh. I always enjoyed Cringley's parties at Macworld. But then I never
liked Las Vegas. Except for fly-away :-) gotta love a DC-3 prop in your
face!
-brad
7:07 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
Off by about 20 years there. ;) 1977.
Marty
West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e')
was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren
(think Intelligent Machines Journal, Dr. Dobbs, etc.)
He's a big guy, and rolled around the shows on roller skates.
There was no significant differentiation between exhibitors, attendees,
and staff.
The 1st one was San Francisco? (I missed that one)
The 2nd one was in San Jose (and resembled VCF)
The 3rd one was in Anaheim (and started to look like a trade show)
(exhibitors and staff started being differentiated from attendees)
The 4th one was in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium (SF) (1st one I
exhibited at)
They also started a spinoff show of "PC Faire"
After a bunch of years in Brooks/Civic, filling the whole place, including
selling booth space in the balcony of Civic, and in the hallway outside
the crappers, Jim sold the show to McGraw Hill.
Exhibitors, attendees, and staff became three separate groups.
Apple objected to the number of non-Apple booths and pulled out. Some
Apple people insist on calling the WCCF "PC Faire", because it was not
exclusively Apple.
After McGraw Hill mismanaged it for a few years, including trying to hold
it in Moscone Hall, they sold the show to Interface Group (Comdex).
Staff became a separate entity, with exhibitors and attendees lumped
together.
If you wanted carpet in your booth, you had to either rent it from the
show management for $75 for the weekend, or pay them $75 to unroll yours.
We had one nut that wasn't a wing-nut in our booth - it cost us $70 to get
caught using a wrench to tighten it.
The show got smaller, and almost as expensive as Comdex; exhibitors became
disgruntled. Some Apple people boycotted the show, and Apple ONLY shows
started up.
Show management stopped respecting seniority for booth selection priority.
I was tied for #1 on booth selection priority, and had a 10 x 10 corner
booth, when they rearranged the floorplan and reassigned all of the space
without consultation with exhibitors.
The show went under.
A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates
back on.
Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would
want a
bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your
system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here)
4 Aug
4 Aug
3:36 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
>West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious
trailing 'e')
>was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote:
Off by about 20 years there. ;) 1977.
Thanks
I wasn't sure whether it was 1976 or 1977; so I ended up making a mistake
just as serious as the Wikipedia article that had claimed that Comdex was
built from WCCF.
In the early ("good ol'") days, WCCF was a lot like VCF.
Now VCF is bigger than WCCF or even Comdex! (and is still fun)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8:26 p.m.
New subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update?
On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote:
In the early ("good ol'") days, WCCF was
a lot like VCF.
Now VCF is bigger than WCCF or even Comdex! (and is still fun)
And just a few more years and I'll have been going for longer than both as
well.
If I can make it...burn out is setting in :(
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
10:28 a.m.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote:
Space constraints. The sellers were segregated in one section (the
consignment section had to be where it was for logistical reasons). But
with a room that small (something like 50x30) everything is mashed
together anyway no matter how you try to arrange it.
But does anyone really need to subsidize a $10 fee?
The cold
equations suggest that at $10, you already got a good deal.
Some exhibits might eat that just in power over a 2 day show!
For the record, the costs of the VCF exhibit area break down as follows
(in no particular order):
1) Venue cost
2) Power
3) Exhibit infrastructure (setup)
4) Awards, prizes, exhibitor badges, tags, etc.
The exhibitor fee also gives you full admission for both days of the event
and, with most VCFs where the budget allows, a VCF t-shirt. I try to make
it fair for everyone: fair to the exhibitors by giving them stuff in
return for their exhibit fee and fair to me to help defray the costs of
putting on the event.
No one had ever suggested that the shows should be
fun.
Some have suggested that they could be even more fun.
Clearly people that go to a classic car show don't go there to have
a bad time.
If the VCF isn't fun then there's no point to it. I certainly put in a
lot of time and effort into it for the nominal bit of fun I have with it
(it would be more fun if I didn't have to manage everything so closely).
I certainly don't do it for the minimal profit I make, and if you count
the loss on the first three events I think I've just about broken even by
now. The money made certainly isn't commensurate with the time I put in.
Isn't a big part of the reason for VCF events to
spread the hobby to
others? Maybe your not much into museum exhibits, but didn't you say it
should be enjoyable for all who attend?
Right, it's not JUST for hobbyists. It has to be enjoyable for the
VISITORS as well. Otherwise, it would just be a big room filled with
geeks. Not fun at all.
Exhibitors
should have a place to sit that is not
in the aisles that the public use. There should be
a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with
the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF.
Good point.
At VCF East 1.0, exhibitors were mixed with the rest.
But I really did not see that as a problem. But at VCF Ease 2.0, we had space behind the tables,
and
there was even room to place chairs in front of consoles so
that people could sit and actually use some of the exhibits.
Clearly thats better, space permitting of course.
Exhibitors generally sit in front of their exhibits because that's the way
the exhibit layout usually has to work in order to make it fit into the
space. I think it also has the side effect of making for better
interaction between exhibitors and visitors.
If anyone has any comments about this then please send them to me. In
fact, I'm always open to comments, suggestions, complaints, criticism,
etc. Please do give me feedback or else I'll keep doing the same crap
over and over again, because as far as I know I'm doing everything right.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
7079
days inactive
7081
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21 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bpope＠wordstock.com -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
dwight.elvey＠amd.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jwstephens＠msm.umr.edu -
news＠computercollector.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
wgungfu＠csd.uwm.edu