14 Dec
2009
14 Dec
'09
3:52 p.m.
On 12/14/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_
detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the
firmware.
It's not full circuit diagrams and datasheets, but from the software
side of things, much, much better than most devices.
It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive
devices. That's the model I was contemplating mounting the IDE-CF rig
on for the Click! experiment (since I already have some
3.5"-drive-bay-PCMCIA adapter frames on hand).
My main AP660 is on the fritz right now, but it's probably PSU issues.
Fortunately, I have a parts unit I can use to verify that everything
else is good with. I've had one since it was new and been very happy
with it.
-ethan
I suspect such players are too expenice _new_ for
me even to consider
buying, and contain suffieicently complex custom ICs that it's a bad idea
to buy one for which manufacuters spares are no longer available.
Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service manual
but full listing of the ROM :oD 
15 Dec
15 Dec
1:42 p.m.
Want
something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service manual
but full listing of the ROM :oD
I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_
detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the
firmware.
It's not full circuit diagrams and datasheets, but from the software
side of things, much, much better than most devices.
It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive
For which you don't get service data, presumably.
The transport (motors, laser pickup, etc) is probably the section most
likely to fail, and the section with the most alignment adjustments. I'd need
service data on that.
-tony
3:05 p.m.
On 12/15/09, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I am wondering how useful a ROM listing is without scheamtics. Surely for
something like this you need to know how the firmware interacts with the
hardware (what the various I/O ports do, etc), and that means (at least
to me) scheamtics and documented ICs.
Documented to the level of the register model, sure. You can't write
firmware without knowing where and what the I/O ports are, I agree.
What I can't promise is the level of detail at the circuit level -
i.e., I have not dug around for the specific datasheets for the major
chips involved.
I realize that it means "to you" schematics and documented ICs, but to
many others (myself included), a workable starting point is a memory
map and register model. I'm all in favor of schematics and
datasheets, and use them and collect them and occasionally create
them, but I also know I can often gain enough understanding to make
things work with a less-than-complete picture (something I often
encounter as a consultant).
Probably not, but if you don't like one transport, you can swap it out
for another device or even make your own IDE target from scratch (and
I have written IDE device drivers for host controllers, so I know the
command-level protocol isn't that bad, especially if you control both
sides of the cable, as you would with this unit).
Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from
Apex. No service
manual
but full listing of the ROM :oD
I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_
detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the
firmware.
It's not full circuit diagrams and datasheets, but from the software
side of things, much, much better than most devices. It also has a
bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive
For which you don't get service data, presumably. The transport (motors, laser pickup, etc) is probably
the section most
likely to fail, and the section with the most alignment adjustments. I'd
need service data on that.
No doubt. I've seen plenty of consumer devices with bad laser pickup
assemblies. So throw out the DVD player and install a hard disk or
flash disk. My point was that unlike most other DVD players, this one
talks to its transport via a PC-style IDE interface, and information
on that is widely available. It won't be a "DVD player" anymore, but
it will be a media player, and since others have done it before
(DVD->hard disk conversion), there's no reason not to expect success.
-ethan
4:05 p.m.
I am wondering how useful a ROM listing is without
scheamtics. Surely for
something like this you need to know how the firmware interacts with the
hardware (what the various I/O ports do, etc), and that means (at least
to me) scheamtics and documented ICs.
What about a COMMENTED rom listing? :o)
For which you don't get service data, presumably.
ATAPI docs are all around.
The transport (motors, laser pickup, etc) is probably
the section most
likely to fail, and the section with the most alignment adjustments. I'd
need
service data on that.
Alignment? Oh, seems you never got a DVD player on your hands.
All the mech aligns itself with the servo info from the DVD player. The
only thing you can do is change the optical unit (ok, you can change the
laser diode) and adjust the bias current - which is the same procedure for
almost everything with a laser pickup. I have a XBOX and **never** had to
change the laser pickup. But I have a spare one in case it fails, just
drop-in and it works.
I respect your oppinion and admire your will to repair everything. I'm
your fan, as I said before. But don't be so anal retentive. There is a world
of good things around that has a simplified service manual. :o)
16 Dec
16 Dec
10:30 a.m.
On Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote:
The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab
another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;)
/me ducks
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
It also has a
bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive
For which you don't get service data, presumably. 
3:14 p.m.
> > It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD
transport, unlike less expensive
> For which you don't get service data, presumably.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
The point is that you don't need to, you can just
pitch it and grab
another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;)
/me ducks
No, the point is that you can replace the drive with a properly documented
drive (as soon as one exists)
3:15 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote:
The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab
another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;)
You might, but you darn well know I don't. Heck, I repaired a
_transistor_ [1] the other day. And didn't we have athread on repairing
light bulbs the other week?
[1] No, I don;'t mean a transistorised radio (which was called a
'transistor' by some people over hear yeras ago). I mean a transsitor, a
single component. It was a 2SB705 (no, don't pretend you've heard of it),
the (PNP) pass transistor in the 24V suppy in am Epson printer. It's
bolted to a heatsing in said printer and connected to the logic board by
a 3-wire cable and cocket. Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine ;-(), all 3
pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source of a
replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package to expose
the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly it worked.
-tony
It also
has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive
For which you don't get service data, presumably. 
19 Dec
19 Dec
12:17 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work
situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to
carefully grind my way down to the metal. As I finished and handed the
board back to the EE in our group to solder on a wire, he looked at it
and rather quickly asked "Do you suppose we've voided the warranty on
that chip?" ;) The EE kept it hanging on the wall in his office for
quite a while.
Later,
Charlie C.
On Tuesday 15
December 2009, Tony Duell wrote:
The point is that you don't need to, you can just
pitch it and grab
another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;)
You might, but you darn well know I don't. Heck, I repaired a
_transistor_ [1] the other day. And didn't we have athread on repairing
light bulbs the other week?
[1] No, I don;'t mean a transistorised radio (which was called a
'transistor' by some people over hear yeras ago). I mean a transsitor, a
single component. It was a 2SB705 (no, don't pretend you've heard of it),
the (PNP) pass transistor in the 24V suppy in am Epson printer. It's
bolted to a heatsing in said printer and connected to the logic board by
a 3-wire cable and cocket. Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine ;-(), all 3
pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source of a
replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package to expose
the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly it worked.
-tony
It also
has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive
For which you don't
get service data, presumably. 
10:48 a.m.
CSquared wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work
situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to
carefully grind my way down to the metal. As I finished and handed the
board back to the EE in our group to solder on a wire, he looked at it
and rather quickly asked "Do you suppose we've voided the warranty on
that chip?" ;) The EE kept it hanging on the wall in his office for
quite a while.
Later,
Charlie C.
I got a DEAD tube here . Just connect the two filament peaces together.
The trickey part ... it is still in the tube. Anyone care to try. :)
Ben.
On
Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote:
You might, but you darn well know I don't. Heck, I repaired a
_transistor_ [1] the other day. And didn't we have athread on
repairing light bulbs the other week?
[1] No, I don;'t mean a transistorised radio (which was called a
'transistor' by some people over hear yeras ago). I mean a transsitor,
a single component. It was a 2SB705 (no, don't pretend you've heard of
it), the (PNP) pass transistor in the 24V suppy in am Epson printer.
It's bolted to a heatsing in said printer and connected to the logic
board by a 3-wire cable and cocket. Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine
;-(), all 3 pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source
of a replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package
to expose the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly
it worked.
-tony
> It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport,
unlike less expensive
For which you don't get service data, presumably.
The point is that you
don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab
another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;)
2:26 p.m.
[Repairing a transistor]
Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night,
long-hours, weekend work
situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to
I've done that sort of thing to PROMs and PAls that have lost the odd
pin.
I normally use a hand file (as I did on the transistor in the Epson
printer), it seems more controllable to me.
To be honest I'd rather have replaced the transistor, but I can't find a
sensible source of 2SB705s. I think I found one dubious-looking website
(who might well provide me witha fake, and I'd rather not have a dodgy
component in a PSU ...) and somebody else who would provide an
'equivalent' for quite a high price.
According to Towers [1] there's not must speical about the original
transistor other than the package (which is so odd that they don't give
the pinout...) I am pretty sure I could find soemthing that would work
for a lot less than the 'equivalent' I was offered.
[1] Tower's International Transistor Selector. I don't know if this book
is known outside the UK, but it basically gives 1 line of specs on just
about every transistor ever made. There's a similar one for FETs (JFETs
and MOSFETs( and one for Op-amps/Comaparators. And some others that are
less useful IMHO. But those 3 (and in particular the bipolar transsitor
one) ave very useful for anyone fixing old stuff.
-tony
3:48 p.m.
On 19 Dec 2009 at 19:26, Tony Duell wrote:
To be honest I'd rather have replaced the
transistor, but I can't find
a sensible source of 2SB705s. I think I found one dubious-looking
website (who might well provide me witha fake, and I'd rather not have
a dodgy component in a PSU ...) and somebody else who would provide an
'equivalent' for quite a high price.
Well, there's the NTE92:
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/10to99/pdf/nte92.pdf
I usually end up going to the NTE cross-reference for discrete
semiconductors. Sometimes they actually offer something.
--Chuck
20 Dec
20 Dec
1:29 p.m.
[2SB705]
Well, there's the NTE92:
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/10to99/pdf/nte92.pdf
NTE parts are unknwon across the Pond. The only time I come across them
is on lists like this.
Does the fact that there is an NTE cross-reference imply it's still
available?
As I mentioned, I have the basic characteristics (apart from the pinout)
from Towers. Getting the pinout was trivial (only one
combination makes
electrical sense -- from memory, with the pins down and the
mounting face
away from you, the pins are B C E in that order). Since this is a linear
PSU, it's likely that anything with the same specs would work (I would be
more careful in an SMPSU of course).
-tony
19 Dec
19 Dec
10:58 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
[Repairing a transistor]
This chip was soldered (on all 4
sides) in the middle of a fair size PCB
so I don't think I could have gotten to that spot with a file. It also
had several lifted pins with "blue-wires" going various places, and I
absolutely did not want to disturb any of those. The pin got broken off
in the first place while trying to blue-wire it. Some IC pin metal
seems to be quite brittle. Also, to be honest, I probably would not
have thought a file would cut through the encapsulation or be precise
enough in this case to expose just that one bit of metal. I can
visualize what you mean though; until I got a bit of a pit created it
was difficult to hold the bit in the right spot.
Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night,
long-hours, weekend work
situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to
I've done that sort of thing to PROMs and PAls that have lost the odd
pin.
I normally use a hand file (as I did on the transistor in the Epson
printer), it seems more controllable to me.
To be honest I'd rather have replaced the transistor, but I can't find a
sensible source of 2SB705s. I think I found one dubious-looking website
A new CPU
would have been nice for us too, except for all the other
blue-wired pins. I was the "software" guy and I'm not sure what hot-air
soldering tools the other guy had access to either. I think there may
have been something out in the manufacturing area. I know there were
none in the engineering lab - typical mom and pop operation - I was
lucky to find a small cutter for the Dremel tool.
[1] Tower's International Transistor Selector. I
don't know if this
book
is known outside the UK, but it basically gives 1 line
of specs on just
about every transistor ever made. There's a similar one for FETs (JFETs
and MOSFETs( and one for Op-amps/Comaparators. And some others that are
less useful IMHO. But those 3 (and in particular the bipolar transsitor
one) ave very useful for anyone fixing old stuff.
I'm not familiar with that;
thanks for the tip.
-tony
21 Dec
21 Dec
5:04 a.m.
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Tony Duell wrote:
[Repairing a transistor]
Oh, that nothing ;-)) Have you ever "repaired" an EPROM with melted and
broken bond wires?
Some years ago I had an EPROM which I wanted to read out (with a very
simple programmer without any safety circuits)... I put it in the wrong
way, so the bolt wire for Vcc was open-circuit after that :-(( So I tried
to break the glass window and managed to break some more wires.
Oh well... So I took that EPROM, put it in a real good programmer, took a
microscope, three more hands ;-), some very fine needles etc. I connected
the needles (with a wire) to the programmer socket where the EPROM had a
broken wire, pressed the needles (by hand!) onto the bonding pad of the
EPROM chip and (with the help of another hand) triggered the read-out
process. I think I managed to correctly read the contents after the fifth
try.
BTW bond wires look so thick and sturdy under a microscope until you see
the needle right next to them...
Christian
Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night,
long-hours, weekend work
situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to
I've done that sort of thing to PROMs and PAls that have lost the odd
pin.
3:33 p.m.
Oh, that nothing ;-)) Have you ever
"repaired" an EPROM with melted and
broken bond wires?
Err no. But I have repaired an Avalanche photodiode that had lost its
bondout wire (the other connection was made by having the substrate of
the device on a metal header). The fact there was only one wire made it a
lote eaiser. I literally soldered a piece of very fine, well-tinned wire
to the pin on the header, got it to the right point on the die and just
touched it with a hot soldering iron. Amazingly the device worked
afterwards...
-tony
20 Dec
20 Dec
1:42 p.m.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:15:14 +0000 (GMT)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine ;-(), all 3
pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source of a
replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package to expose
the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly it worked.
That is
about the same way as I attach new batteries to "Sun NVRAMs"...
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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days inactive
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17 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
csquared3＠tx.rr.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com