29 Aug
2012
29 Aug
'12
3:37 p.m.
Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs?
ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80
NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in
the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go
through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and
sticking a RST instruction there instead.
--
John Elliott
30 Aug
30 Aug
7:36 a.m.
On 29 August 2012 23:37, John Elliott <jce at seasip.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I did not know that! I even have one of those, purchased a year or so
back as part of the research for this article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/
If only it took CF or SD cards & I could get stuff on and off it
without fiddling about, I'd use the thing. Ditto my Z88.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Any more
CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs?
ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80
NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in
the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go
through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and
sticking a RST instruction there instead. 
2:46 p.m.
On 29 August 2012 23:37, John Elliott <jce at seasip.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I did not know that! I even have one of those, purchased a year or so
back as part of the research for this article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/
If only it took CF or SD cards & I could get stuff on and off it
without fiddling about, I'd use the thing. Ditto my Z88.
I believe both units were made long befroe there _were_ CF or SD cards,
so I don't see how they could have used them :-)
Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that
way?
I do remember trying a Z88 once. The keyboard put be off ever wanting to
use it for anything serious. I stuck with my M100...
-tony
Any more
CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs?
ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80
NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in
the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go
through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and
sticking a RST instruction there instead.
31 Aug
31 Aug
4:22 a.m.
On 30 August 2012 22:46, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for
earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable.
On 29 August 2012 23:37, John Elliott <jce at seasip.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I did not know that! I even have one of those, purchased a year or so
back as part of the research for this article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/
If only it took CF or SD cards & I could get stuff on and off it
without fiddling about, I'd use the thing. Ditto my Z88.
I believe both units were made long befroe there _were_ CF or SD cards,
so I don't see how they could have used them :-) Any more
CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs?
ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80
NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in
the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go
through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and
sticking a RST instruction there instead. Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can
get text off them that
way?
As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your
bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for
about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and
straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive
nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain
serial device for about 15 years and that is just fine. I *VERY*
occasionally use proprietary modified-serial connectors, such as
Psion's, and it's still a PITA to get it working and talking to a
modern computer.
I know you don't like it, because you choose to live in the past, but
I really like USB for this. Right now, I have 4 computers on or under
this desk, 2 more on the coffee table, another standing by the sofa,
and 4 laptops by the bed, and all talk USB. Only 1 is so old that it
just has USB2 - all the others either have USB2 onboard or a PCI USB2
card fitted. Virtually all of them have Firewire for fast external
storage, too.
I have read of problems with it, but for me, USB has been remarkably
plain sailing since the first machine I saw with it - an IBM desktop
PC in about late 1994/early 1995 which had these two unlabelled ports
on the back fascia, with a strange little trident logo next to it.
Nothing drove these ports - the machine came with Windows for
Workgroups 3.11 - nothing identified them and they were glossed over
in the documentation.
I eventually managed to trace a reference and found they were a
proposed new standard bus from Intel.
I put the beta of Windows 4.0 "Chicago" on the machine and they were
identified, but I had nothing to connect to them.
For the next 4 years, the ports stayed obscure and few devices supported them.
Then the iMac launched in 1998, having no other general-purpose ports
/except/ USB, and suddenly, /everyone/ supported it and it took off
like a rocket.
Me, I have loved it since Win95. I still used parallel-port devices
from the mid-1990s to the end of the century and then
they, happily,
went away too.
It's great. Keyboards, mice, tablets, trackballs, trackpads, printers,
phones, PDAs, card readers, floppy drives, hard drives, optical
drives, scanners, multifunction devices, all-in-one devices, modems,
network adapters, displays, everything has one type of cable and one
type of port and you plug it in and it just works. I love it. This is
how computers /should/ be.
I still love the old stuff and retrocomputing, but I also have work to
do, and life is too short for parity bits and stop bits and guessing
how many data bits and trying to find a baud rate both ends can handle
and software handshaking versus hardware handshaking and what kind of
UART do you have and is your cable wired correctly and which of 42
"standard" connectors are you using.
At least eventually 9600,n,8,1 worked for most things most of the
time. Slowly. If you were lucky. Maybe.
The serial port is /the/ single aspect of 1980s (& pre-1980s)
computing I have been most glad to see go. Never again.
I do remember trying a Z88 once. The keyboard put be
off ever wanting to
use it for anything serious. I stuck with my M100...
It's not great, but it's very quiet but big enough and tactile enough
to touch-type on /in total silence./
The Amstrad NC100 is a proper keyboard; it feels better, but you clack
and rattle away on it. Distracting if you're a journo taking notes.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
11:55 a.m.
They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF
interfaces for
earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable.
I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines.
SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory
cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting...
Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you
can get text off them that
way?
As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your
bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for
about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and
straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive
nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain serial device for about 15 years and that is just
fine. I *VERY*
occasionally use proprietary modified-serial connectors, such as
Psion's, and it's still a PITA to get it working and talking to a
modern computer.
I know you don't like it, because you choose to live in the past, but
I really like USB for this. Right now, I have 4 computers on or under
I have a reason for disliking USB here, and it's got nothign to do with
the age of the interfaces. It's that USB is too 'asymmetirc'.
Let me expalin. With RS232, and posslby simpe null modem calbes, I can
link my M100, my HP95LX, my Eposn PX4, etc, etc, etc to my PC. I can a
also link them to each other. I can, for example, link an HP95LX to my PC
nad kermit an intel-hex file to progrma in to na EPROM. I can then take
that 95LX to my workbench and plug it into my EPROM programmer nad upload
the file. Or I can transfer the file to my M100. Or I can link the M100
striagn to the PC. Or to any of my otehr machines.
YOu simply can';t do that with USB. There is no way to link 2 USB mastes
or slaves together. USB gets round the problem of null-modme cables by
making them impossible, and prventing you from doing the thigns you
needed a null modem cable for with RS232.
It's great. Keyboards, mice, tablets, trackballs,
trackpads, printers,
phones, PDAs, card readers, floppy drives, hard drives, optical
drives, scanners, multifunction devices, all-in-one devices, modems,
network adapters, displays, everything has one type of cable and one
type of port and you plug it in and it just works. I love it. This is
how computers /should/ be.
No ti's not. It makes those staks that the manufacters intend you to do
-- plugging in the normal peripehrals -- easy, and other jobs, almost
impossible. Since I use computers in unconventional ways, I need to be
able to do the latter.
I still love the old stuff and retrocomputing, but I
also have work to
do, and life is too short for parity bits and stop bits and guessing
how many data bits and trying to find a baud rate both ends can handle
and software handshaking versus hardware handshaking and what kind of
UART do you have and is your cable wired correctly and which of 42
"standard" connectors are you using.
AS I said earlier, how come I naver have these sorts of problems?
-tony
12:37 p.m.
On 31 August 2012 19:55, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Good point, yes.
They were,
yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for
earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable.
I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines.
SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory
cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting...
I did some trivial research into this.
The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM.
There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash,
I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional
media readers.
The NC100 has a PCMCIA slot, but it can only take 1MB of SRAM and it
is used as RAM - there is no filesystem on it, so there's no way to
read it on anything else.
I have a reason for disliking USB here, and it's
got nothign to do with
the age of the interfaces. It's that USB is too 'asymmetirc'.
Let me expalin. With RS232, and posslby simpe null modem calbes, I can
link my M100, my HP95LX, my Eposn PX4, etc, etc, etc to my PC. I can a
also link them to each other. I can, for example, link an HP95LX to my PC
nad kermit an intel-hex file to progrma in to na EPROM. I can then take
that 95LX to my workbench and plug it into my EPROM programmer nad upload
the file. Or I can transfer the file to my M100. Or I can link the M100
striagn to the PC. Or to any of my otehr machines.
YOu simply can';t do that with USB. There is no way to link 2 USB mastes
or slaves together. USB gets round the problem of null-modme cables by
making them impossible, and prventing you from doing the thigns you
needed a null modem cable for with RS232.
Fair point. There are things like USB OTG but it's rarely implemented.
OTOH, I've never once wanted to do this...
How come I never have these sorts of problems? I
routinely link RS232
ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting
2 machiens, it often 'just works'
[...]
No ti's not. It makes those staks that the
manufacters intend you to do
-- plugging in the normal peripehrals -- easy, and other jobs, almost
impossible. Since I use computers in unconventional ways, I need to be
able to do the latter.
AS I said earlier, how come I naver have these sorts of problems?
I am not saying it's *impossible*. It works, very well in some cases,
and it was a long-lived, widely-adopted standard that is of very wide
use and applicability.
All that I am saying that I find it to be fiddly and irritating -- and
failure-prone until you get the settings right on both ends. I didn't
like it when it was current and I like it less now.
You thrive on such things, I am sure; my hateful administrivia is your
fun bit of fettling, and my fun bit of
fiddling - e.g. playing with non-traditional x86-32 OSs such as Haiku,
AROS and whatnot, installing multiple Linux distros, experimenting
with FreeBSD and Solaris and so on -- might well be your wretched
waste of time and effort.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
1 Sep
1 Sep
11:44 a.m.
On 31 August 2012 19:55, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Good point, yes.
Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the
ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be
known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them.
No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough
machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in.
They
were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for
earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable.
I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines.
SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory
cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting...
I did some trivial research into this.
The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM.
There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash,
I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional
media readers.
The NC100 has a PCMCIA slot, but it can only take 1MB of SRAM and it
is used as RAM - there is no filesystem on it, so there's no way to
read it on anything else.
Again, that surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA
interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can
read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make
sense of the Amstrad's card.
I have a reason for disliking USB here, and
it's got nothign to do with
the age of the interfaces. It's that USB is too 'asymmetirc'.
Let me expalin. With RS232, and posslby simpe null modem calbes, I can
link my M100, my HP95LX, my Eposn PX4, etc, etc, etc to my PC. I can a
also link them to each other. I can, for example, link an HP95LX to my PC
nad kermit an intel-hex file to progrma in to na EPROM. I can then take
that 95LX to my workbench and plug it into my EPROM programmer nad upload
the file. Or I can transfer the file to my M100. Or I can link the M100
striagn to the PC. Or to any of my otehr machines.
YOu simply can';t do that with USB. There is no way to link 2 USB mastes
or slaves together. USB gets round the problem of null-modme cables by
making them impossible, and prventing you from doing the thigns you
needed a null modem cable for with RS232.
Fair point. There are things like USB OTG but it's rarely implemented.
OTOH, I've never once wanted to do this... I am not saying it's *impossible*. It works, very
well in some cases,
and it was a long-lived, widely-adopted standard that is of very wide
use and applicability.
All that I am saying that I find it to be fiddly and irritating -- and
failure-prone until you get the settings right on both ends. I didn't
like it when it was current and I like it less now.
Actually, had both devices in the RS2232 connection been designed to work
together (adn not be general-porpose dvices), there would be no problem.
The paramerts would be pre-set. The reason RS232 can be a bit of a
fiddle and why there are a lot of things you may have to set, is that
it's a general-purpose interface.
You thrive on such things, I am sure; my hateful administrivia is your
acvtually, no. Much of the itme I want things to work. I want to be able
to set things as I want them (e.g. I do want to be able to set 5 data
bits, 1.5 stop bits to talk to my Creed 7E), but I don't want to try
comibnations at random until it all works.
I suspect that is the reason I have no problems. Before I connect 2 RS232
devives I've not used before, I sit down for a few minutes iwth the
manual (the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And
configure things accordingly.
fun bit of fettling, and my fun bit of
fiddling - e.g. playing with non-traditional x86-32 OSs such as Haiku,
AROS and whatnot, installing multiple Linux distros, experimenting
with FreeBSD and Solaris and so on -- might well be your wretched
waste of time and effort.
There is certainly something in that :-) However, I don;t object ot
readong an OS manual -- or even source code -- to get a classic computer
running. And I put sorting out an RS232 connection very much on that
level.
And once you have got it sorted out -- you know the settings for both
end,s oyu have a cable wired, it'll work properly for evermore. So for a
mahcine oyu are goign to use, it's worth taking a little time to sort out
how to link it to a PC and docuemtning it. Store the settings in a
configuration file on each machien, solder up an adapter or cable -- and
label it -- if need be.
For example, the HP82164 (HPIL to RS232 interface) is well known around
here for having a very unconventional use of the flow control lines. I
seem to remembr that it uses DTR/DSR as the main flow control lines. Unix
boxes tend to use RTS/CTS. I have a labelled adapter that does the
paporpriate swaps. I spent a little time etting my HPIL sytems to talk to
my linux box with this interface, suing a breakout box to get the
conenctions right. I then soldered up an adapter with the right signals
swapped round. I now just use that, I don't have to do the tests again.
It works.
-tony
12:38 p.m.
On 1 September 2012 19:44, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
They're just bigger versions of the same old design:
http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/z88/flash.html
?
The Cambridge Z88 Flash EPROM by Rakewell Limited is an innovative
solution to the problem of data storage on the Z88 Computer, fitting
into the third slot on the Z88.
This Flash EPROM provides 1Mb of storage space, at breakneck speeds.
The EPROM can be formatted by the Z88 itself in just 10 seconds, (no
need for a separate EPROM eraser). Saving and loading files is over
40 times faster than the standard EPROM pack - the speed is 6.6K/sec
compared to 0.16K/sec, meaning a 10Kb file takes just 2 seconds to
copy. However, just like the original EPROM packs, the Flash EPROM
does not lose its data when it is removed or if power is lost from the
Z88.
It also uses less power than standard EPROM packs. Files can be
deleted from the Flash EPROM singly or completely with the format
command.
A BASIC program is provided on the card to allow immediate use of
Format, Catalogue, Save, Fetch and Restore all files.
Only ?70 plus ?5 post and packing (in the UK)
?
On 31 August 2012 19:55, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Good point, yes.
Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the
ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be
known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them.
No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough
machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. They
were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for
earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable.
I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines.
SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory
cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting...
I did some trivial research into this.
The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM.
There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash,
I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional
media readers. Again, that surely depends on wht level of access you
have to the PCMCIA
interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can
read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make
sense of the Amstrad's card.
*WAY* too much trouble. The idea was something quicker, easier and
less work than RS232 file transfer.
Sure, I've done data-recovery from media before; I've even written my
own disc-sector editor to facilitate it. It is not something I am
going to do merely in order to use an antique to do some writing on.
If it takes that much hassle, sorry, no, I'm just going to use a
laptop instead.
You are lucky. I find I need to do it all the time
with my machines, it's
oen reason I use RS232 a lot.
Fair call. We long ago established that you & I want different things, Tony.
Perhaps if you could do it, you'd find you
wanted to do it :-)
Hey! Hold it right there. I /can/ do it. I don't /want/ to, but I am
perfectly able, same as I know enough woodwork to build a bookcase -
but I don't like doing woodwork, so I'd rather go to IKEA and spent
?20 and get one that I can assemble in a few minutes.
I did it in the 1980s because people paid me to, but as I said, I find
it a pain.
(My personal high-point was extracting text files from a proprietary
QUME wordprocessor with unreadable hard-sectored disks. I captured its
printer output via Procomm or something, then wrote a small QBASIC
program to de-bidirectionalise every other line and also remove the
overstrikes it had used to create boldface and underline. Quite a
triumph that was. *NOT* something I am going to do in order to
retrieve my copy from a 1980s portable that I would quite like to use
instead of a modern laptop PC, just for a change.)
Let me explain:
Before I connect 2 RS232
devives I've not used before, I sit down for a few minutes iwth the
manual (the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And
configure things accordingly.
That *is* the pain-in-the-backside element of RS232 for me.
When you say:
I suspect that is the reason I have no problems.
The thing is, that /is/ the problem for me. I don't want to do that -
life is too short. I am not interested, it's not fun, it's a nuisance.
There is certainly something in that :-) However, I
don;t object ot
readong an OS manual -- or even source code -- to get a classic computer
running. And I put sorting out an RS232 connection very much on that
level.
Depends what you want to do. I found it a very interesting exercise to
get VAX/VMS running in an emulator. If I had had to wire up a terminal
cable as well, I would not have bothered, because I hate soldering and
I hate making up cables.
Manuals, yes. OSs, yes. Cables, soldering, no, not if I can possibly avoid it.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:29 p.m.
The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM
or EEPROM.
There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash,
I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional
media readers.
Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the
ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be
known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them.
No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough
machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. Again, that
surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA
interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can
read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make
sense of the Amstrad's card.
*WAY* too much trouble. The idea was something quicker, easier and
less work than RS232 file transfer. Perhaps if you
could do it, you'd find you
wanted to do it :-)
Hey! Hold it right there. I /can/ do it. I don't /want/ to, but I am
perfectly able, same as I know enough woodwork to build a bookcase -
but I don't like doing woodwork, so I'd rather go to IKEA and spent
?20 and get one that I can assemble in a few minutes.
I did it in the 1980s because people paid me to, but as I said, I find
it a pain.
OK, most of us work with classic computers as a hobby, and by defintion a
hobby is soemthing you enjoy doing. You don't pick a hobby that you hate :-)
However, in classic computing (as in any hobby?) there are many different
things to do. So you will never want to do (I do not want to write an
emulator for any classic computer I own, I don't want to write a new OS
for such a machine. You don;'t want to attack a PDP11 with a logic
analyser). There are things you do enjoy (I _do_ want to attack a PDP11
with a logic analyser). That's fine, we each do the bits that interest us.
However, sometimes oyu have to do soemthing you don't like that much. I
don't like cleaning keycaps. It's boring. But I find I have to do it on
just aobut every classic computer I get. I don't enjoy cleaning up the
remains of a platten roller in an HP9810 (it's the most disgusting goo
you cna imagine, and it gets everyhwhere), but I love that family of
machines so muc htat I will do it. You don't enjoy soldering up cables,
but I would argue sometimes you would ahve to do it to get a mahcine running.
(My personal high-point was extracting text files from a proprietary
QUME wordprocessor with unreadable hard-sectored disks. I captured its
printer output via Procomm or something, then wrote a small QBASIC
program to de-bidirectionalise every other line and also remove the
As an aside, you were lucky. Qume had a strange 20-somethign bit parallel
itnerface to soem of their diasywheel printers, the bits sleecte the
chracter on the wheel, how much to move the carriage after pritning it,
etc. Not easy to capture on another machine at all.
Oh, and Diabloe had a similar interface on some models of the 630
printer. It wea similar, but certainly not the same...
manual (the
real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And
configure things accordingly.
That *is* the pain-in-the-backside element of RS232 for me.
When you say:
Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies.
-tony
I suspect that is the reason I have no problems.
The thing is, that /is/ the problem for me. I don't want to do that -
life is too short. I am not interested, it's not fun, it's a nuisance.
3 Sep
3 Sep
6:28 a.m.
On 2 September 2012 20:29, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
They're just bigger versions of the same old design:
Sure, but you misunderstood me. AFAIK the original cartridges were not
jsut a signle stnadard IC, and there is no single, stanmdard. IC with
more cpaactiy that you cna just plug in. Ot make a cartridge you have to
desgin some logic to interface a memory device to the Z88. And to design
that logic you have to understnad the interface between the cartridge and
the rest of the Z88.
I have no idea how easy it is to find this information, but it would
appear if you know it, it is possible to make other thigns that
interface to the cartridges (origianl or modern). In aprticular, say, a
USB-interfaced reader/writer.
[...]
[Amstrad PCMCIA card]
Surely it depends on how often you haev to do it. It's way too much work
if you only ever have to transfer data once. It nay be worth doing if you
need to do it time and again. It takes considerable time to set it up the
first tiem, after that it's very easy.
Sure. Bu to stick wit hthe bookcase example, you know enough about
woodwork that if Ikea don't ahve soemthign that will suit your needs, you
could make it from scratch. Or you could modify an Ikea bookcase to suit
your needs (been there, done that...)
To get back ot classic computing and making up cables. I have the tools
and probalby the skill to make a connector. I could turn the pins from
metal rod, drill the insualtor using the vertical side lto give X_Y
positioningm, mill the hosuing gto ma metal block (wasteful, but I don't
have a usitable press to firm it from a metal sheet) and so on. But I am
not going to do that for a DB25 plug. I will got to any one of a number
of suppliers and buy one. As will jsut about anyone elre here.
But if I need a strange connector that's no longer made -- say the large
9-pin plug used on old Creed teleprinters -- then I would make it myself.
It would be worth spending the tiem to get the machine running again.
SImialrly, I am not going to make M3 screws from scratch, I can buy a bag
of 100 for a few pounds. But when I needed M3*0.6mm screws -- the old
French ones -- to fix a telephone, of course I made them. There was no
other way.
I don't much like programming. But I know enough C to write simple
utilities when I have to. I'd rather not, but given the choice between
speind in evening writing a little code and having a non-working machine,
I'll do the former.
It's much less of a pain in the backside that finding you have a USB
device but no driver exists for the version of the OS you happen to be
running :-). At least with RS232 I have a fighting chance of being able
ot fix it myself. I would rather sit down with the 'scope and datacomms
analyser than play telephone tag with a so-called technical support
department...
Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
The Z88 has
proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM.
There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash,
I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional
media readers.
Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the
ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be
known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them.
No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough
machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. Again,
that surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA
interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can
read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make
sense of the Amstrad's card.
*WAY* too much trouble. The idea was something quicker, easier and
less work than RS232 file transfer. Perhaps
if you could do it, you'd find you
wanted to do it :-)
Hey! Hold it right there. I /can/ do it. I don't /want/ to, but I am
perfectly able, same as I know enough woodwork to build a bookcase -
but I don't like doing woodwork, so I'd rather go to IKEA and spent
?20 and get one that I can assemble in a few minutes.
I did it in the 1980s because people paid me to, but as I said, I find
it a pain.
OK, most of us work with classic computers as a hobby, and by defintion a
hobby is soemthing you enjoy doing. You don't pick a hobby that you hate :-)
However, in classic computing (as in any hobby?) there are many different
things to do. So you will never want to do (I do not want to write an
emulator for any classic computer I own, I don't want to write a new OS
for such a machine. You don;'t want to attack a PDP11 with a logic
analyser). There are things you do enjoy (I _do_ want to attack a PDP11
with a logic analyser). That's fine, we each do the bits that interest us.
However, sometimes oyu have to do soemthing you don't like that much. I
don't like cleaning keycaps. It's boring. But I find I have to do it on
just aobut every classic computer I get. I don't enjoy cleaning up the
remains of a platten roller in an HP9810 (it's the most disgusting goo
you cna imagine, and it gets everyhwhere), but I love that family of
machines so muc htat I will do it. You don't enjoy soldering up cables,
but I would argue sometimes you would ahve to do it to get a mahcine running.
(My personal high-point was extracting text files from a proprietary
QUME wordprocessor with unreadable hard-sectored disks. I captured its
printer output via Procomm or something, then wrote a small QBASIC
program to de-bidirectionalise every other line and also remove the
As an aside, you were lucky. Qume had a strange 20-somethign bit parallel
itnerface to soem of their diasywheel printers, the bits sleecte the
chracter on the wheel, how much to move the carriage after pritning it,
etc. Not easy to capture on another machine at all.
Oh, and Diabloe had a similar interface on some models of the 630
printer. It wea similar, but certainly not the same...
manual
(the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And
configure things accordingly.
That *is* the pain-in-the-backside element of RS232 for me.
When you say:
Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. I suspect that is the reason I have no problems.
The thing is, that /is/ the problem for me. I don't want to do that -
life is too short. I am not interested, it's not fun, it's a nuisance. 
1:15 p.m.
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a
single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE
QUTOTED EMAIL. *coughs*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies.
Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?)
4:20 p.m.
On 3 September 2012 21:15, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a
single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE QUTOTED
EMAIL. *coughs*
Hey, I have been liamproven at aol.com for sixteen years now and the last
time I checked it's still September. ;?)
Seriously, though, there was no one part of what Tony said that I
could trim out and say "I agree" without implying that I didn't agree
to the rest, and life is too short to time all the text of mine that
/he/ quoted, leaving only his, and still just append a line.
Anyway, grown-up email clients collapse quoted text that you've seen. ;?)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies.
Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?)
5:27 p.m.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
On 3 September 2012 21:15, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
I guess it could have been worse. <aol>Me too!</aol> :)
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
Hey, I have been liamproven at aol.com for sixteen years now and the last
time I checked it's still September. ;?)
Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a
single word of that. :?)
I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a
single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE QUTOTED
EMAIL. *coughs* Seriously, though, there was no one part of what Tony
said that I
could trim out and say "I agree" without implying that I didn't agree
to the rest, and life is too short to time all the text of mine that
/he/ quoted, leaving only his, and still just append a line.
^K is your friend. :) (or dd if you run that way) *laughs*
Anyway, grown-up email clients collapse quoted text
that you've seen. ;?)
Alpine forever!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
4 Sep
4 Sep
9:17 a.m.
On 2012 Sep 3, at 1:15 PM, geneb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only
add a single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE
OF THE QUTOTED EMAIL. *coughs*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a
duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
I enjoy it when people limit their sigs to perhaps 2 lines of text,
in contrast to sigs that are several times the size of their comment.
And advertising in sigs tends to make one's messages look a lot like
spam.
Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies.
Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of
that. :?)
9:29 a.m.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2012 Sep 3, at 1:15 PM, geneb wrote:
Touche'!
Number of fucks given? Zero.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a
single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE
QUTOTED EMAIL. *coughs*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
I enjoy it when people limit their sigs to perhaps 2 lines of text, in
contrast to sigs that are several times the size of their comment.
And advertising in sigs tends to make one's messages look a lot like spam.
Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies.
Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?)
11 a.m.
On 4 September 2012 17:17, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
I enjoy it when people limit their sigs to perhaps 2 lines of text, in
contrast to sigs that are several times the size of their comment.
And advertising in sigs tends to make one's messages look a lot like spam.
Good point - that might be why Gmail consistently flags Gene's
messages as spam for me.
I was under the impression that in the Good Old Days, the maximum
acceptable length of a .sig was 4 lines? That's what I try to stick
to.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
31 Aug
31 Aug
2:05 p.m.
On 08/31/2012 02:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
How come I never have these sorts of problems? I routinely link RS232
ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting
2 machiens, it often 'just works'
That's what I was about to say. Sure, you have to set up a few
things...just like driving a car. You have to pull the lever, pull the
door, get in, close the door, insert the key, turn the key, release the
key at the same time, put it in gear, and drive. That's fewer steps
than I think I've ever taking getting something talking via RS232.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can
get text off them that
way?
As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your
bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for
about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and
straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive
nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain
3 p.m.
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 08/31/2012 02:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
How come I never have these sorts of problems? I routinely link RS232
ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting
2 machiens, it often 'just works'
That's what I was about to say. Sure, you have to set up a few
things...just like driving a car. You have to pull the lever, pull the
door, get in, close the door, insert the key, turn the key, release the
key at the same time, put it in gear, and drive. That's fewer steps
than I think I've ever taking getting something talking via RS232.
Even worse - in 17 years of using Windows, I've never had a problem that
wasn't self-inflicted. Not. One. Problem.
Then again, in the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same
thing holds true. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can
get text off them that
way?
As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your
bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for
about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and
straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive
nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain
3:29 p.m.
On 31 August 2012 23:00, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
Even worse - in 17 years of using Windows, I've never had a problem that
wasn't self-inflicted. Not. One. Problem.
Wow. What, you've /never/ had a BSOD or anything? Not one?
OK, I will freely admit, they're /very/ rare these days, but even XP
threw 'em occasionally. I have seen Vista and Win7 throw blueys, but
it is a noteworthy occurrence now.
I've also had random Really Weird Sh*t like, for instance, installing
SP3 on a clean, stable, working XP machine, and it deleted absolutely
all the user's files. Left the home directory there, but empty except
for the default templates, samples etc. Removed /all/ their settings -
wallpaper, the lot.
I've never even heard of that one before.
All his data was backed up, 3 copies, but his backup mechanism was
flawed and didn't include his email in Outlook. :?(
Then again, in the 20+ years of using Unix &
Unix-like systems, the same
thing holds true. :)
I've seen kernel panics on Linux, but only a /looooooong/ time ago -
Red Hat 4.2 on SPARC, I think. I've seen the kernel "oops" recently,
but it kept running & there was no data loss.
I've seen Mac OS X kernel panic lots of times, from 10.0 to 10.5. (I
don't have any MacIntel kit so I can't run anything later.)
I've seen my iPhone (3GS, iOS 5.1.1) freeze and spontaneously reboot.
So, yeah, Unix isn't immune, either.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
3:59 p.m.
On 08/31/2012 06:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
I dunno. Seems pretty immune to me. (that's why I run it) I haven't
seen behavior like that on a UNIX box in well over a decade. And it's
not like I manage a small number of machines.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Then again, in
the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same
thing holds true. :)
I've seen kernel panics on Linux, but only a /looooooong/ time ago -
Red Hat 4.2 on SPARC, I think. I've seen the kernel "oops" recently,
but it kept running & there was no data loss.
I've seen Mac OS X kernel panic lots of times, from 10.0 to 10.5. (I
don't have any MacIntel kit so I can't run anything later.)
I've seen my iPhone (3GS, iOS 5.1.1) freeze and spontaneously reboot.
So, yeah, Unix isn't immune, either.
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:59 p.m.
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
I've seen two panics now that I think about it. Once on a .99 something
version of Linux and once on a new build of NetBSD for the MicroVAX II I
had at the time. I wasn't able to repeat either one unfortunately.
On 31 August 2012 23:00, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
The only BSODs I've had were due to beta video drivers (self-inflicted)
and I ran into a flakey 4GB DRAM stick a few years ago.
Even worse - in 17 years of using Windows, I've never had a problem that
wasn't self-inflicted. Not. One. Problem.
Wow. What, you've /never/ had a BSOD or anything? Not one?
Then again, in
the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same
thing holds true. :)
I've seen kernel panics on Linux, but only a /looooooong/ time ago -
Red Hat 4.2 on SPARC, I think. I've seen the kernel "oops" recently,
but it kept running & there was no data loss.
I've seen my iPhone (3GS, iOS 5.1.1) freeze and
spontaneously reboot.
I've wanted to throw my iPad at times. That damn Safari browser will fall
over and die at the first harsh word.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
4492
days inactive
4498
days old
20 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jce＠seasip.demon.co.uk -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com