9 Sep
2002
9 Sep
'02
5:05 a.m.
Yes, but go to a Best Buy or similar store, and you can still buy a VCR.
What gets my attention is the speed with which the newer medium/technology
is being pushed. It took a lot longer for CD's to replace LP's, and as
another recent thread mentioned, you can still buy LP's and turntables.
What I object to is being "forced" to switch, to have to buy new hardware
when what I have is still functional and functioning. We can keep our old
computers running, and functional, with old programs, or even newly written
programs for the old platforms. I still use NewWord (copyright 1986) on my
1994-vintage HP 200LX palmtop that I carry with me every day. I guess if I
purchesed prerecorded videocassettes like I purchased my old software, I
could keep playing them. In software,
if I rented (annually licensed) my software, it could be cut off at any
time, like WordPerfect was for certain Data Generals,IIRC, or like MS would
prefer.
Enough rambling, though.
-----Original Message-----
From: J.C. Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:41 AM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Obsolecence (Was RE: OT: PC Motherboard with a vacuum tube)
"I guess they are trying to force users to switch to DVD."
You make it sound like a conspiracy. It's a simple matter of
economics.
Every time you play a VHS cassette, you degrade it. DVD does not inherently
suffer from this, unless you mishandled a DVD. DVDs take less space, in a
vertical spine-out display configuration. DVDs do not need to be rewound.
DVDs have a better picture. DVDs have better sound.
In fact, the *only* disadvantage that DVD has as a medium is that
unlike
VHS, it's not readily recordable.
If I were a video rental store, I'd be dumping miserable VHS
cassettes as
fast as I could. Let the antique shops rent them. The DVD market now
represents a rather large percentage of the rental market, since a
reasonable DVD player is as cheap as a mid-range VHS deck.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Feldman, Robert
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 09:21
To: 'cctalk(a)classiccmp.org'
Subject: OT: Obsolecence (Was RE: OT: PC Motherboard with a vacuum tube)
Our local Blockbuster Video here in Chicago is rapidly decreasing the number
of video cassettes it rents, in favor of DVD's. Soon there won't be any
available, except at the public library or specialty rental stores. I guess
they are trying to force users to switch to DVD.
9 Sep
9 Sep
6:07 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Feldman, Robert wrote:
What I object to is being "forced" to
switch, to have to buy new hardware
when what I have is still functional and functioning. We can keep our old
I gotta say that "functional" is a relative term here. I won't argue
that "the producers" are pushing HARD for an inherently copy-unfriendly
format. However, if DVD weren't so very much easier to use, store,
ship, maintain, and produce -- let alone harder to ruin -- users,
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to DVD. VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky, temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of those things.
Notice that nowhere did I mention video quality. Napster proved
conclusively that nobody cares. ;)
Seriously. Superior video is not driving the market at all.
Doc
6:21 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Doc Shipley wrote:
I gotta say that "functional" is a
relative term here. I won't argue
that "the producers" are pushing HARD for an inherently copy-unfriendly
format. However, if DVD weren't so very much easier to use, store,
ship, maintain, and produce -- let alone harder to ruin -- users,
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to DVD. VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky, temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of those things.
Gaah!
I hereby crown myself King of the Unreadable Paragraph.
Doc
8:04 a.m.
Quothe Doc Shipley, from writings of Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 10:07:23AM -0500:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Feldman, Robert wrote:
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to DVD. VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky, temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of those things.
VCRs and video tapes are tempermental? Until a bad tape recently
damaged my VCR (it was a tape from a company selling parts and
instructions for laser printer repair), I've never had a single
problem with my Zenith 4-head VCR (made by JVC) that I purchased back
in 1984. Of course, I've never rented tapes for it, and only used new
or blank tapes in it (and only purchased high-quality blank tapes to
use).
As to DVDs, I can only say "what are those"? I never saw one, and am
in no hurry to see, or use, one. Again, they're digital rubbish,
whereas VCRs use tapes with nice analog signals recorded on them.
--
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
8:18 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, R. D. Davis wrote:
As to DVDs, I can only say "what are those"?
I never saw one, and am
in no hurry to see, or use, one. Again, they're digital rubbish,
whereas VCRs use tapes with nice analog signals recorded on them.
I'm sorry, VHS is the absolute worst format on earth. Worse than anything
digital. DVD is sooo much nicer. However, I would agree that 'good'
formats like BETA (even BETAmax) Umatic, or even Sony 1" are much better,
and probably surpass the quality of a DVD, only because of DVD's lossy
MPEG-2 compression.
OK, that's enough OT rant for me.
-- Pat
12 Sep
12 Sep
9:12 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, R. D. Davis wrote:
As to DVDs, I can only say "what are those"?
I never saw one, and am
in no hurry to see, or use, one. Again, they're digital rubbish,
whereas VCRs use tapes with nice analog signals recorded on them.
*shakes head*
Peace... Sridhar
9 Sep
9 Sep
9:19 a.m.
Doc Shipley wrote:
Notice that nowhere did I mention video quality.
Napster proved
conclusively that nobody cares. ;)
Seriously. Superior video is not driving the market at all.
If digital satellite
is anything to go by, Digital=crap, analog=good. IMO,
digital video looks blocky and horrible. Needless to say, I hate SkyDigital.
If anyone wants the full story, email me off list and I'll tell you my
experiences with it.
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
PGP Key ID: 0x0E18C95F
PGP Key Fingerprint: 2741 5CB7 1D45 6F77 D1FC FA3D 7A87 2DA4 0E18 C95F
3:27 p.m.
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9:56 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Doc Shipley wrote:
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to DVD.
VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky, temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of those things.
"big, clunky": The size difference is NOT that much.
"slow-to-set-up": When used for playing pre-recorded materials, the setup
for VCR v DVD is IDENTICAL. All of the differences lie in setup needed
for the "extra" features of VCR (signal input, timer, etc.) 'course
we've
seen that setting the clock of the timer crosses over the threshold of
competency of much of the public.
Notice that nowhere did I mention video quality.
Napster proved
conclusively that nobody cares. ;)
Seriously. Superior video is not driving the market at all.
Very true.
But abused DVD produces a better signal than abused VCR, just as
abused audio CD produces better sound than abused cassette tape.
10:07 a.m.
Maybe you've never put a SINGLE FINGERPRINT on a DVD.
Most players go absolutely wacky.
--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Doc Shipley wrote:
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to
DVD. VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky,
temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of
those things.
"big, clunky": The size difference is NOT that much.
"slow-to-set-up": When used for playing
pre-recorded materials, the setup
for VCR v DVD is IDENTICAL. All of the differences
lie in setup needed
for the "extra" features of VCR (signal input,
timer, etc.) 'course we've
seen that setting the clock of the timer crosses
over the threshold of
competency of much of the public.
Notice that nowhere did I mention video
quality.
Napster proved
conclusively that nobody cares. ;)
Seriously. Superior video is not driving the
market at all.
Very true.
But abused DVD produces a better signal than abused
VCR, just as
abused audio CD produces better sound than abused
cassette tape.
10:20 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Doc Shipley wrote:
I wasn't clear. Setup at my house includes skipping trailers and soda
ads. Therein lies a huge difference.
As for "big, clunky", have you raised toddlers around VCR's & CD
players? The relative invitation to insertion of foreign objects is
amazing.
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to
DVD. VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky, temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of those things.
"big, clunky": The size difference is NOT that much.
"slow-to-set-up": When used for playing pre-recorded materials, the setup
for VCR v DVD is IDENTICAL. All of the differences lie in setup needed But abused DVD produces a better signal than abused
VCR, just as
abused audio CD produces better sound than abused cassette tape.
Oh, I completely agree. I just meant that it's not germaine to the
question of market acceptance. More is the pity.
Doc
10:45 a.m.
Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
But abused DVD produces a better signal than abused
VCR, just as
abused audio CD produces better sound than abused cassette tape.
Anyone here see
the "first appearance" of CDs on the British TV show
"Tomorrow's World"? "And it even works if I smear strawberry jam all
over
it"... The guy demoing the CD player smears jam all over the *label* side of
the CD, plays it, wipes it clean then plays it again. It would have been far
more impressive if he had coated the data side of the CD in jam. I know CDs
certainly won't work when there are fingerprints comprised mostly of Nutella
(chocolate and hazelnut sandwich spread) all over the playing side. I found
that out when my brother pilfered one of my CDs and got Nutella all over it.
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
PGP Key ID: 0x0E18C95F
PGP Key Fingerprint: 2741 5CB7 1D45 6F77 D1FC FA3D 7A87 2DA4 0E18 C95F
11:57 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Anyone here see the "first appearance" of
CDs on the British TV show
"Tomorrow's World"? "And it even works if I smear strawberry jam all
over
it"... The guy demoing the CD player smears jam all over the *label* side of
the CD, plays it, wipes it clean then plays it again. It would have been far
more impressive if he had coated the data side of the CD in jam. I know CDs
certainly won't work when there are fingerprints comprised mostly of Nutella
(chocolate and hazelnut sandwich spread) all over the playing side. I found
that out when my brother pilfered one of my CDs and got Nutella all over it.
It is generally a LOT easier to wipe jam, Nutella, etc. off of a CD than
it is to disassemble and clean tape.
Neither one works well while the jam is on it.
11:41 a.m.
I gotta say that "functional" is a
relative term here. I won't argue
that "the producers" are pushing HARD for an inherently copy-unfriendly
format. However, if DVD weren't so very much easier to use, store,
ship, maintain, and produce -- let alone harder to ruin -- users,
vendors and rental shops would not be flocking to DVD. VHS cassettes &
players have always been a big, huge, clunky, temperamental-and-easily-
borked, slow-to-set-up PITA. DVD are none of those things.
No offense, but bull :-) My personal DVD player story involves the great
scourge known as Macrovision. I only own a 20" TV/VCR combination, which
means I have no choice but to connect the DVD player effectively "through"
the VCR. Thanks to Macrovision, the picture was then unviewable until I
got an additional $50 filter device.
Moreover, since Macrovision isn't compatible with a non-interlaced signal,
this means we get half the output lines we could get if we didn't have to
bother with that crap. (See
www-cse.stanford.edu/classes/cs201/projects-99-00/dmca-2k/macrovision.html
for a great explanation of how Macrovision works/sucks).
DVD is nice quality, yes, but the players are finicky, the technical issues
are legion, and the only reason I'm slowly converting at all is that my
beloved VHS tapes are starting to wear out and some just aren't carried on
videotape anymore. People have already discussed the other stuff that burns
my cookies like region encoding, so I'll just shut up for now. Anyway, the
marketroids behind DRM and likeminded cow patty policy should burn in hell
as far as I'm concerned.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- They make a desert and call it peace. -- Tacitus ---------------------------
12:58 p.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
DVD is nice quality, yes, but the players are finicky,
the technical
issues are legion, and the only reason I'm slowly converting at all is
that my beloved VHS tapes are starting to wear out and some just aren't
carried on videotape anymore.
Yep, DVD is the best thing for the porn industry since VHS. Now, no
matter how many times you watch it (and I'm sure it is a lot) it'll never
wear out.
(Of course the problem of keeping the discs clean is another issue, but I
won't go into that ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
1:15 p.m.
DVD is nice
quality, yes, but the players are finicky, the technical
issues are legion, and the only reason I'm slowly converting at all is
that my beloved VHS tapes are starting to wear out and some just aren't
carried on videotape anymore.
Yep, DVD is the best thing for the porn industry since VHS. Now, no
matter how many times you watch it (and I'm sure it is a lot) it'll never
wear out.
3:26 p.m.
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9:05 a.m.
Feldman, Robert wrote:
I still use
NewWord (copyright 1986) on my 1994-vintage HP 200LX palmtop that I
carry with me every day.
Wow - another person with a HP LX-series palmtop. I've
got an Omnigo 700LX
with the Nokia 2110 mobile to go with it. But that's going way OT for this
mailing list (my 700LX carries a manufacture date in 1996).
In software, if I rented (annually licensed) my
software, it
could be cut off at any time, like WordPerfect was for certain Data
Generals,IIRC, or like MS would prefer.
Anyone know the full story to this? Hmm...
Interesting.
Now everyone knows why I'm still using Windows 98. I'm also a cheapskate - I
won't buy anything unless I have to. Hence why I'm using OpenOffice. I also
hate spyware. When I get my Linux box working as a router, I'm going to have
a packet tracer running on it. It might be interesting to find out just what
is spying on me...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
PGP Key ID: 0x0E18C95F
PGP Key Fingerprint: 2741 5CB7 1D45 6F77 D1FC FA3D 7A87 2DA4 0E18 C95F
9:47 a.m.
Philip Pemberton wrote:
Feldman, Robert wrote:
Right in front of me here is an HP 95LX, which I use occasionally
for things like capturing GPS serial output. I also have an
OmniGo 100 but since it eats AA batteries, I don't use it much.
--
John Honniball
coredump(a)gifford.co.uk
I still use
NewWord (copyright 1986) on my 1994-vintage HP 200LX palmtop that I
carry with me every day.
Wow - another person with a HP LX-series palmtop.
I've got an Omnigo 700LX
with the Nokia 2110 mobile to go with it.
11:21 a.m.
> > I still use
> > NewWord (copyright 1986) on my 1994-vintage HP 200LX palmtop that I
> > carry with me every day.
> Wow - another person with a HP LX-series palmtop.
I've got an Omnigo 700LX
> with the Nokia 2110 mobile to go with it.
Right in front of me here is an HP 95LX, which I use
occasionally
for things like capturing GPS serial output. I also have an
OmniGo 100 but since it eats AA batteries, I don't use it much.
I've got two 95LXs. Until I got a Palm m505, a 95LX was my primary PDA, and
it still is in use as a mobile serial terminal.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- You're never too old to become younger. -- Mae West ------------------------
8:37 p.m.
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, John Honniball wrote:
Right in front of me here is an HP 95LX, which I use
occasionally
for things like capturing GPS serial output. I also have an
OmniGo 100 but since it eats AA batteries, I don't use it much.
I use my old OmniGo 120 (I used to work for Geoworks) every day and hadn't
ever noticed anything particularly appalling about battery life...
ok
r.
11:22 a.m.
At 07:03 PM 9/9/02 +0100, Philip wrote:
Feldman, Robert wrote:
> I still use
> NewWord (copyright 1986) on my 1994-vintage HP 200LX palmtop that I
> carry with me every day.
Wow - another person with a HP LX-series palmtop.
Are you kidding! I have one that I use frequently and I expect a good number of the
people on this list have one. I've tried a bunch of different palmtops including the
HP color Jornada (runs Windows CE, yuck!) and I still prefer the 200LX.
I've got an Omnigo 700LX
with the Nokia 2110 mobile to go with it. But
that's going way OT for this
mailing list (my 700LX carries a manufacture date in 1996).
Get a copy of Ad_Aware. It's free and works beautifully.
When I get my Linux box working as a router, I'm going to have
In software, if I rented (annually licensed) my
software, it
could be cut off at any time, like WordPerfect was for certain Data
Generals,IIRC, or like MS would prefer.
Anyone know the full story to this? Hmm...
Interesting.
Now everyone knows why I'm still using Windows 98. I'm also a cheapskate - I
won't buy anything unless I have to. Hence why I'm using OpenOffice. I also
hate spyware. a packet tracer running on it. It might be interesting
to find out just what
is spying on me...
Let us know when you find out.
Joe
11:57 a.m.
At 02:38 PM 9/9/02 +0000, Joe Rigdon wrote:
At 07:03 PM 9/9/02 +0100, Philip wrote:
Absolutely. I have two of them here, and still use them. The most interesting
use so far is in conjunction with a PCMCIA smartcard reader, but they're
very handy as a serially-connected computer terminal.
I disliked the 320LX and the later Jornadas, both because of Windows CE
cruft and
because software development suddenly got a lot more difficult than on the
200LX.
The 200LX would run (nearly any) straight DOS program and I wrote several
utilities using normal development tools, many of which made use of the
serial port
(the earlier 95LX had a different serial port configuration). Equivalent
development on
the Jornada series was expensive, time-consuming, and basically wasted effort.
It's off-topic, but I've got a 360LX (built 1997) here if anyone is
interested in a trade.
There is still a thriving 200LX "community" of users. See, for example,
http://www.palmtop.net/ and http://www.palmtoppaper.com/
Cheers,
Dan
www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html
Wow - another person with a HP LX-series palmtop.
Are you kidding! I have one that I use frequently and I expect a good
number of the people on this list have one. I've tried a bunch of
different palmtops including the HP color Jornada (runs Windows CE,
yuck!) and I still prefer the 200LX.
3:27 p.m.
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23 comments
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participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
coredump＠gifford.co.uk -
dan＠ekoan.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
pat＠purdueriots.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
rdd＠rddavis.org -
red＠bears.org -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com -
sloboyko＠yahoo.com -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
vance＠neurotica.com