4 Oct
2007
4 Oct
'07
8:41 p.m.
This is semi-OT, but if you use an OS X capable Power Mac to run legacy Mac
software, 10.5 apparently no longer supports Classic even on PowerPC machines.
http://www.lowendmac.com/mail/mb07/0716.html#2
This is a shame, since a lot of early Mac software will surprisingly still
run on my G5 running Tiger. In fact, I use an old System 6-era version of
Caere OmniPage for simple OCR tasks since it's so unbelievably fast by
comparison.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
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-- In memory of Howard Caine --------------------------------------------------
4 Oct
4 Oct
9:24 p.m.
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
This is semi-OT, but if you use an OS X capable Power
Mac to run legacy Mac
software, 10.5 apparently no longer supports Classic even on PowerPC machines.
http://www.lowendmac.com/mail/mb07/0716.html#2
This is a shame, since a lot of early Mac software will surprisingly still
run on my G5 running Tiger. In fact, I use an old System 6-era version of
Caere OmniPage for simple OCR tasks since it's so unbelievably fast by
comparison.
"Doesn't support" as in "will not run the Classic environment",
or
"does not ship with Classic"?
Tiger (v10.4) did not ship with Classic either.
Doc
9:36 p.m.
http://www.lowendmac.com/mail/mb07/0716.html#2
This is a shame, since a lot of early Mac software will surprisingly still
run on my G5 running Tiger. In fact, I use an old System 6-era version of
Caere OmniPage for simple OCR tasks since it's so unbelievably fast by
comparison.
"Doesn't support" as in "will not run the Classic
environment", or
"does not ship with Classic"?
Tiger (v10.4) did not ship with Classic either. 
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:43 a.m.
On 05/10/2007, Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> wrote:
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
You misunderstand, badly. You are confusing the older OS with the VM
environment in which is runs.
"Classic", to be precise and accurate, means the support for running
MacOS 9 in a VM under OS X. Classic is the *compatibility environment*
for MacOS 9, it is not MacOS 9. MacOS 9 remains itself; it's the OS,
"Classic" is the subsystem it runs in. You launch MacOS 9 inside
Classic.
Leapard - OS X 10.5 - lacks that subsystem. It cannot launch MacOS 9
in a VM, and thus it cannot run MacOS 9 apps at all in any way. OS X
10.5 is the first version that is not in any way backwardly software
compatible with previous MacOS versions.
In this way, 10.5 brings fast G4s and G5 PowerPC machines to parity
with x86-based "Macintels". Now, neither can run "classic MacOS"
code.
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This is semi-OT, but if you use an OS X capable
Power Mac to run legacy Mac
software, 10.5 apparently no longer supports Classic even on PowerPC machines.
http://www.lowendmac.com/mail/mb07/0716.html#2
This is a shame, since a lot of early Mac software will surprisingly still
run on my G5 running Tiger. In fact, I use an old System 6-era version of
Caere OmniPage for simple OCR tasks since it's so unbelievably fast by
comparison.
"Doesn't support" as in "will not run the Classic
environment", or
"does not ship with Classic"?
Tiger (v10.4) did not ship with Classic either.
6:51 a.m.
"Doesn't support" as in "will not run the Classic environment",
or
"does not ship with Classic"?
Tiger (v10.4) did not ship with Classic either.
You misunderstand, badly. You are confusing the older OS with the VM
environment in which is runs. 10.5 is the first version that is not in any way
backwardly software
compatible with previous MacOS versions.
In this way, 10.5 brings fast G4s and G5 PowerPC machines [down] to parity
with x86-based "Macintels". Now, neither can run "classic MacOS"
code.
T,FTFY. ;)
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------
9:50 a.m.
On 05/10/2007, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
No, Doc is well aware of the difference -- I think he misspoke here. I'm
also pretty certain that 10.3 didn't come with OS 9 either, but obviously
runs Classic, of course. I need to go find my retail Panther box.
Oh, OK. No, I don't think OS X's been /supplied/ with OS9 in the box
for a long time. However, a couple of years ago, I set up a client's
then-new iBook G4 and discovered that OS9 was on the DVD as a separate
installer if you looked. That machine came with 10.4, I think. It may
be a peculiarity of the new-machine bundle.
[Googles] Ahh, yes!
It's a real pain. Not that I have any burning /need/ for OS9 apps any
more, but I kinda feel that a so-called "Mac" that can't run Mac apps
isn't really a Mac any more. I was sorry when they stopped booting
original MacOS; that was bad enough. I am vaguely looking for a dual
G4 when I can find one cheap enough or free...
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"Doesn't support" as in "will
not run the Classic environment", or
"does not ship with Classic"?
Tiger (v10.4) did not ship with Classic either.
You misunderstand, badly. You are confusing the older OS with the VM
environment in which is runs. 10.5 is the
first version that is not in any way backwardly software
compatible with previous MacOS versions.
In this way, 10.5 brings fast G4s and G5 PowerPC machines [down] to parity
with x86-based "Macintels". Now, neither can run "classic MacOS"
code.
T,FTFY. ;)
1:35 p.m.
No, Doc is
well aware of the difference -- I think he misspoke here. I'm
also pretty certain that 10.3 didn't come with OS 9 either, but obviously
runs Classic, of course. I need to go find my retail Panther box.
Oh, OK. No, I don't think OS X's been /supplied/ with OS9 in the box
for a long time. However, a couple of years ago, I set up a client's
then-new iBook G4 and discovered that OS9 was on the DVD as a separate
installer if you looked. That machine came with 10.4, I think. It may
be a peculiarity of the new-machine bundle. In this way, 10.5 brings fast G4s and G5 PowerPC
machines [down] to parity
with x86-based "Macintels". Now, neither can run "classic MacOS"
code.
T,FTFY. ;) 
2:46 p.m.
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
It's just a shame when until the MacIntel
transition, even big beefy G5s
could still run many ancient Mac 128K-era apps (I still like to play Zero
Gravity from time to time, which is actually quite playable despite the
speed disparity -- probably a testament to very good programming). Running
code in Basilisk II just isn't the same.
. . . and the incompatabilities have been solved, so that "modern" Macs
can now run malware intended for Windoze?
3:02 p.m.
On 05/10/2007, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
No, not directly, but if it runs real actual Windows, even in a VM,
then Windows is the same old malware-magnet it is running natively.
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It's just a shame when until the MacIntel
transition, even big beefy G5s
could still run many ancient Mac 128K-era apps (I still like to play Zero
Gravity from time to time, which is actually quite playable despite the
speed disparity -- probably a testament to very good programming). Running
code in Basilisk II just isn't the same.
. . . and the incompatabilities have been solved, so that "modern" Macs
can now run malware intended for Windoze?
3:01 p.m.
On 05/10/2007, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
It's just a shame when until the MacIntel transition, even big beefy G5s
could still run many ancient Mac 128K-era apps (I still like to play Zero
Gravity from time to time, which is actually quite playable despite the
speed disparity -- probably a testament to very good programming). Running
code in Basilisk II just isn't the same.
I absolutely agree. Running an emulator doesn't make it a Mac.
Anything can run an emulator; because a Windows box or an Amiga can
run a Mac emulator doesn't mean they're Macs. By the same token, a
Macintel can emulate a VAX or a PDP or an S/370, but it is none of
those things!
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6 Oct
6 Oct
12:45 a.m.
On 10/5/07, Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> wrote:
Tiger (v10.4) did not ship with Classic either.
I happen to be running an Intel MacBook Pro and have already run into
this issue... for emulating various classic environments, I've already
installed VICE, have tried to install Dosbox (and had
as-yet-unresolved problems with its source not being able to find the
X-11 header files on my disk - yes... I _did_ install X)... what I
would love to do, but don't seem to be able to, is to run some OS 9
PPC Mac programs.
Presumably, I'm screwed since I have an Intel processor, but if
there's a way to run Classic PPC Mac apps on an Intel Mac running OS
10.4, I'd love to hear about it.
Thanks,
-ethan
1:02 a.m.
At 9:45 AM +0200 10/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote:
X-11 header files on my disk - yes... I _did_ install
X)... what I
would love to do, but don't seem to be able to, is to run some OS 9
PPC Mac programs.
Have you tried? I thought that "carbon" apps should run under
Rosetta. Of course your apps might not be "carbonized" (I think
those are the right terms, it's been years, and it's late).
Presumably, I'm screwed since I have an Intel
processor, but if
there's a way to run Classic PPC Mac apps on an Intel Mac running OS
10.4, I'd love to hear about it.
I suspect you are out of luck. Most of us with non-Mac OS X apps are
trying to run stuff so old that they're 68k apps. I've found that
anything I am interested in that had a PPC version now has a Mac OS X
version.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
1:41 a.m.
I happen to be running an Intel MacBook Pro and have
already run into
this issue... for emulating various classic environments, I've already
installed VICE, have tried to install Dosbox (and had
as-yet-unresolved problems with its source not being able to find the
X-11 header files on my disk - yes... I _did_ install X)... what I
would love to do, but don't seem to be able to, is to run some OS 9
PPC Mac programs.
Carbon PPC binaries will run under Rosetta (and OS 9). Non-Carbonized ones
will not.
Presumably, I'm screwed since I have an Intel
processor, but if
there's a way to run Classic PPC Mac apps on an Intel Mac running OS
10.4, I'd love to hear about it.
Your other option is Sheepshaver and/or Basilisk II, which are emulators
for PPC and 68K respectively. Sheepshaver can host up to OS 9.0.4.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
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-- Computers are like air conditioners. They stop working if you open windows.
1:44 a.m.
On 10/6/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
Your other option is Sheepshaver and/or Basilisk II,
which are emulators
for PPC and 68K respectively. Sheepshaver can host up to OS 9.0.4.
I have set up vMac, but not Basilisk II yet. I can probably do that
when I find enough free-time to play games in the first place.
-ethan
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:39 a.m.
On 05/10/2007, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
This is semi-OT, but if you use an OS X capable Power
Mac to run legacy Mac
software, 10.5 apparently no longer supports Classic even on PowerPC machines.
http://www.lowendmac.com/mail/mb07/0716.html#2
Hmph!
I pointed that out on LowEndMac's UnsupportedOSX list /months/ ago.
It's one good reason that I probably won't be going to 10.5 for a
while.
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10:10 a.m.
At 8:41 PM -0700 10/4/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
This is semi-OT, but if you use an OS X capable Power
Mac to run legacy Mac
software, 10.5 apparently no longer supports Classic even on PowerPC machines.
http://www.lowendmac.com/mail/mb07/0716.html#2
This is a shame, since a lot of early Mac software will surprisingly still
run on my G5 running Tiger. In fact, I use an old System 6-era version of
Caere OmniPage for simple OCR tasks since it's so unbelievably fast by
comparison.
<bad word><bad word><bad word><bad word><bad word><bad
word><bad
word><bad word><bad word><bad word><bad word><bad
word><bad word><bad
word><bad word><bad word><bad word><bad word><bad
word><bad word><bad
word>
OK, that <bad word> STINKS! Just the night before last I had to fire
up ClarisDraw as even though I own copies of more modern drawing
app's, nothing works as well. First in 10.4 they dropped support for
classic AppleTalk breaking things for me, now this. Well, we may
just stay on 10.4.x for the next few years. As a result of the
Appletalk issue I didn't upgrade to 10.4 till earlier this year, even
though I bought it the day it came out.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
1:32 p.m.
OK, that <bad word> STINKS! Just the night
before last I had to fire
up ClarisDraw as even though I own copies of more modern drawing
app's, nothing works as well. First in 10.4 they dropped support for
classic AppleTalk breaking things for me, now this. Well, we may
just stay on 10.4.x for the next few years.
Given how long Apple has (probably unwillingly but still) continued to
support Panther, I expect that there will be a similar lag between Leopard
and Housecat or whatever 10.6's going to be called and thus Tiger will
remain in support for a while too.
My OS X fileserver runs Panther for exactly the reason you specify, although
I've got a 7100+G3 doing nothing that will probably get made into a classic
AFP server for the IIgs and 68K systems.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- You've become useful again. -- "Die Another Day"
---------------------------
6288
days inactive
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days old
16 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com