27 Nov
2004
27 Nov
'04
12:54 p.m.
At 16:28 27/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
Aside from keyboard ;-)
CPU intensive video design - lose video when program running (or SSLLOOWW
mode for ZX81).
This also makes it highly dependant on the internal firmware, so that it's
tough to adapt other Z80 software systems to run on it.
"RF only", and poorly shielded computer make it tough to get decent TV display.
Limited internal RAM - and expansion very prone to connector problems/flakiness
(practically useless without an external keyboard so that you didn't have to
touch the machine while it was running).
Slightly odd dialect of BASIC.
Never did like the use of single-key "shift" keywords (although this is
essential
given the keyboard) - also a matter of taste, so this cannot be considered a
"fault".
But... I still consider the ZX80/81 a rather interesting and innovative design,
because it truly was designed to get "something from almost nothing". Most of
the items listed above are just the "nature of the beast" - given what it was
(the lowest price entry on the block) and to be *VERY* cheap to manufacture.
I know guys who did a *LOT* with their ZX80 - they are a capable machine. But,
their limitations make them look very poor when compared to other more traditional
designs. To appreciate the ZX, you need to keep in mind that it is SUPPOSED to be
a very minimal machine. It makes more sense as an alternative to a programmable
calculator than as an alternative to a word processing or serious software
development machine.
The only really bad thing about the ZX is that I think a lot of people bought it
expecting more than it had to offer...
Regards,
Dave
--
dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Vintage computing equipment collector.
http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html
What's this love of the ZX81, which I regard
as a postively horrible
machine. I'd not rip one apart, though, mainly because there's little of
use to raid from it...
You regard it as horrible because . . . ? 
27 Nov
27 Nov
1:59 p.m.
designs. To appreciate the ZX, you need to keep in
mind that it is SUPPOSED to be
a very minimal machine. It makes more sense as an alternative to a programmable
calculator than as an alternative to a word processing or serious software
development machine.
Alas, I'd find it useless as a replacement for my programmable
calculator, since it needs a mains supply and a TV as the display.
Neither of which I can easily carry about with me, sit on top of a PDP11,
or whatever.
In any case, my programmable calculators have real mass storage
(including 3.5" floppies), 80 column video, decent printers, useful I/O,
and so on. I use HP41s with IL and most of the peripherals...
-tony
2:31 p.m.
In message <m1CYDPc-000JEDC@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
In any case, my programmable calculators have real
mass storage
(including 3.5" floppies), 80 column video, decent printers, useful I/O,
and so on. I use HP41s with IL and most of the peripherals...
Heh. I've been toying with the idea of buying one of the TI programmable
graphics calculators (probably a TI-84). Anyone got one? Can they be made to
do RPN, hex->bin conversion, bitwise operations, etc.?
Failing that, anyone care to suggest a nice, (fairly) low-cost programmers'
calculator? I know at least one person is going to say "HP 16C", but I
haven't seen any around my neck of the woods for a while, and the ones I've
seen on Ebay seem to go for insane amounts.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... I ran Doublespace on my monitor & get 2 more TV channels.
28 Nov
28 Nov
3:13 a.m.
At 01:31 AM 11/28/04 +0000, you wrote:
In message <m1CYDPc-000JEDC@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
TI made a "programmers" calculator at one time. LED display IIRC. I
doubt they still make it but you should be able to find one on E-bay and
TIs usually go cheap.
Joe
In any case, my programmable calculators have
real mass storage
(including 3.5" floppies), 80 column video, decent printers, useful I/O,
and so on. I use HP41s with IL and most of the peripherals...
Heh. I've been toying with the idea of buying one of the TI programmable
graphics calculators (probably a TI-84). Anyone got one? Can they be made to
do RPN, hex->bin conversion, bitwise operations, etc.?
Failing that, anyone care to suggest a nice, (fairly) low-cost programmers'
calculator? I know at least one person is going to say "HP 16C", but I
haven't seen any around my neck of the woods for a while, and the ones I've
seen on Ebay seem to go for insane amounts. 
6:18 a.m.
New subject: "Programmers" Calculator (was Re: ZX81 denigrated!)
At 09:13 AM 11/28/04 -0500, you wrote:
At 01:31 AM 11/28/04 +0000, you wrote:
They made an LCD version as well, I have one somewhere (not that I'm likely
to find it anytime soon). From memory it's a variant of the TI-55mk2.
If you want something cheaper still from memory the casio fx-100d has hex,
octal, binary and some logic functions. There shouldn't be any trouble
finding one. At least around here they were the standard "high school"
calculator before the graphic calcs came along.
In message <m1CYDPc-000JEDC@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
TI made a "programmers" calculator at one time. LED display IIRC. I
doubt they still make it but you should be able to find one on E-bay and
TIs usually go cheap. In any case, my programmable calculators have
real mass storage
(including 3.5" floppies), 80 column video, decent printers, useful I/O,
and so on. I use HP41s with IL and most of the peripherals...
Heh. I've been toying with the idea of buying one of the TI programmable
graphics calculators (probably a TI-84). Anyone got one? Can they be made to
do RPN, hex->bin conversion, bitwise operations, etc.?
Failing that, anyone care to suggest a nice, (fairly) low-cost programmers'
calculator? I know at least one person is going to say "HP 16C", but I
haven't seen any around my neck of the woods for a while, and the ones I've
seen on Ebay seem to go for insane amounts.
7:21 a.m.
New subject: "Programmers" Calculator (was Re: ZX81 denigrated!)
>>Heh. I've been toying with the idea of
buying one of the TI programmable
>>graphics calculators (probably a TI-84). Anyone got one? Can they be made to
>>do RPN, hex->bin conversion, bitwise operations, etc.?
>>Failing that, anyone care to suggest a nice, (fairly) low-cost programmers'
>>calculator? I know at least one person is going to say "HP 16C", but I
>>haven't seen any around my neck of the woods for a while, and the ones
I've
>>seen on Ebay seem to go for insane amounts.
[...]
If you want something cheaper still from memory the
casio fx-100d has hex,
octal, binary and some logic functions. There shouldn't be any trouble
finding one. At least around here they were the standard "high school"
calculator before the graphic calcs came along.
You might also consider an HP48 (or an HP28 if you can live without any
way to back yp your programs and data -- the 48 has an RS232 port, and
Kermit in ROM...). They're not that expensive second-hand (a lot cheaper
than a 16C anyway), they can handle hex/binary/octal numbers up to 64
bits long, have the normal bitwise logic functions nad shifts/rotates.
They do not have the floating point binary mode of the 16C, though. The
48 is a pretty nice calculator too, I really like the programming
language (RPL). It's stack based, and you can push _anything_ onto the
stack -- real numbers, complex numbers, arrays, lists, strings, even
programs (!), and then operate on them.
There's also the 49G. The keyboard is horrible, but the firmware, now
that they've got the bugs out, is rather nice. Just about all the 48
features + an assembler (!), systemRPL compiler, big integers (think of
working out 100! and getting _all_ the digits!), exact mode (1/2 + 1/3
evaulates to 5/6, square root of 8 evalutes to 2 * sqrt(2), all displayed
symbollically), and so on. Alas the 49G+ is unusable for me since they
replaced the useful RS232 port with that Useless Serial Botch thingy....
-tony
9:33 a.m.
New subject: "Programmers" Calculator (was Re: ZX81 denigrated!)
In message <3.0.3.32.20041129031802.0169fba0@pop-server>
"Dr. Ido" <dr.ido(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote:
They made an LCD version as well, I have one somewhere
(not that I'm likely
to find it anytime soon). From memory it's a variant of the TI-55mk2.
If you want something cheaper still from memory the casio fx-100d has hex,
octal, binary and some logic functions. There shouldn't be any trouble
finding one. At least around here they were the standard "high school"
calculator before the graphic calcs came along.
At the moment, I'm looking at the TI-89 Titanium. Hex and binary conversion
onboard, programmable in TI-BASIC, 68k assembler or C. 3.5MiB User FLASH,
180KiB User RAM, 160x100 greyscale LCD. Beats faffing around with Windoze
Calculator, anyway.
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... If at first you don't succeed, call it Ver 1.0
8:48 a.m.
I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a horrible death. I don't know
what became of it. I have the model that replaced it, a TI Programmer II,
an LCD model. It has number keys with binary representations ghosted over
the keys, CE, XOR, AND, OR to the left of the numbers, oh heck:
ON/C
DEC HEX OCT K OFF
STO RCL SUM ( )
SHF D E F / (<--divide symbol)
1'sC A B C X
OR 7 8 9 -
AND 4 5 6 +
XOR 1 2 3
CE 0 . +/- =
I used to use this thing all the time. I really should get some batteries
for it. I need a pair of Varta V13GA or similar.
At 09:13 AM 11/28/2004 -0500, you wrote:
At 01:31 AM 11/28/04 +0000, you wrote:
[Philosophy] "People can and will do things that no one could
possibly believe anyone would do. For examples look at most of human
history or the alt.sex.* hierarchy." --Ken Boucher on human stupidity
in sci.nanotech
--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -...
tpeters(a)nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square
EN53wc
WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA
In message <m1CYDPc-000JEDC@p850ug1>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
TI made a "programmers" calculator at one time. LED display IIRC. I
doubt they still make it but you should be able to find one on E-bay and
TIs usually go cheap.
Joe In any case, my programmable calculators have
real mass storage
(including 3.5" floppies), 80 column video, decent printers, useful I/O,
and so on. I use HP41s with IL and most of the peripherals...
Heh. I've been toying with the idea of buying one of the TI programmable
graphics calculators (probably a TI-84). Anyone got one? Can they be made to
do RPN, hex->bin conversion, bitwise operations, etc.?
Failing that, anyone care to suggest a nice, (fairly) low-cost programmers'
calculator? I know at least one person is going to say "HP 16C", but I
haven't seen any around my neck of the woods for a while, and the ones I've
seen on Ebay seem to go for insane amounts. 
11:58 a.m.
New subject: Programmer's calculator (was: ZX81 denigrated! (was Re: Approaches to projects)
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Tom Peters wrote:
I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a horrible
death. I don't know
That is a really nice calculator, IFF you can plug it in.
Battery life is negligible.
what became of it. I have the model that replaced it,
a TI Programmer II,
an LCD model.
The LCD model has great battery life. It's batteries often
outlast the life of the keyboard.
If you want something SMALLER, the Casio CFX40/CFX400 is
fantastic IFF you have excellent eyesight and good desterity.
3:30 p.m.
New subject: Programmer's calculator (was: ZX81 denigrated! (was Re: Approaches to projects)
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Tom Peters wrote:
I've heard that before and its not true, at least with the model I have. I get
around 1.5 to 2 years out of one 9V battery in mine, always on my desk, used
every couple of days. It does turn itself off after a short period of
inactivity (1 minute or so - first rotating decimal point pattern then off)
I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a
horrible death. I don't know
That is a really nice calculator, IFF you can plug it in.
Battery life is negligible. what became of it. I have the model that replaced
it, a TI Programmer II,
an LCD model.
The LCD model has great battery life. It's batteries often
outlast the life of the keyboard.
If you want something SMALLER, the Casio CFX40/CFX400 is
fantastic IFF you have excellent eyesight and good desterity.
3:41 p.m.
New subject: Programmer's calculator (was: ZX81 denigrated! (was Re: Approaches to projects)
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
It certainly IS "TRUE"!
The battery life of THREE that I have had has always been HOURS, NOT
YEARS.
OTOH, the LCD model gives years on batteries.
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Tom Peters wrote:
I've heard that before and its not true, at least
with the model I have. I get
around 1.5 to 2 years out of one 9V battery in mine, always on my desk, used
every couple of days. It does turn itself off after a short period of
inactivity (1 minute or so - first rotating decimal point pattern then off) I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a
horrible death. I don't know
That is a really nice calculator, IFF you can plug
it in.
Battery life is negligible. what became of it. I have the model that replaced it,
a TI Programmer II,
an LCD model.
The LCD model has great battery life. It's batteries often
outlast the life of the keyboard.
If you want something SMALLER, the Casio CFX40/CFX400 is
fantastic IFF you have excellent eyesight and good desterity.
3:48 p.m.
New subject: Programmer's calculator (was: ZX81 denigrated! (was Re: Approaches to projects)
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
Well my LED one gives > 1 Year use per battery, Did yours do the auto turnoff
thing?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
It certainly IS "TRUE"!
The battery life of THREE that I have had has always been HOURS, NOT
YEARS.
OTOH, the LCD model gives years on batteries. On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Tom Peters wrote:
I've heard that before and its not true, at least
with the model I have. I get
around 1.5 to 2 years out of one 9V battery in mine, always on my desk, used
every couple of days. It does turn itself off after a short period of
inactivity (1 minute or so - first rotating decimal point pattern then off) I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a
horrible death. I don't know
That is a really nice calculator, IFF you can plug
it in.
Battery life is negligible. what became of it. I have the model that replaced it,
a TI Programmer II,
an LCD model.
The LCD model has great battery life. It's batteries often
outlast the life of the keyboard.
If you want something SMALLER, the Casio CFX40/CFX400 is
fantastic IFF you have excellent eyesight and good desterity.
3:50 p.m.
New subject: Programmer's calculator (was: ZX81 denigrated! (was Re: Approaches to projects)
Batteries in the TI LCD Programmer lasted years. But I haven't opened that
drawer in YEARS.
At 06:41 PM 11/28/2004 -0800, you wrote:
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
[PATRIOTISM] A great British writer once said that if he had to
choose between betraying his country and betraying a friend he hoped
he would have the decency to betray his country. --The Hipcrime Vocab
by Chad C. Mulligan
--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -...
tpeters(a)nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square
EN53wc
WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
have. I get
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Tom Peters wrote:
I've heard that before and its not true, at least
with the model I I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a
horrible death. I don't know
That is a really nice calculator, IFF you can plug
it in.
Battery life is negligible. around 1.5 to 2 years out of one 9V battery in
mine, always on my desk,
used
every couple of days. It does turn itself off
after a short period of
inactivity (1 minute or so - first rotating decimal point pattern then off)
It certainly IS "TRUE"!
The battery life of THREE that I have had has always been HOURS, NOT
YEARS.
OTOH, the LCD model gives years on batteries.
> > what became of it. I have the model
that replaced it, a TI
Programmer II,
> > > an LCD model.
> > The LCD model has great battery life. It's batteries often
> > outlast the life of the keyboard.
> > If you want something SMALLER, the Casio CFX40/CFX400 is
> > fantastic IFF you have excellent eyesight and good desterity.
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics 
29 Nov
29 Nov
1:07 a.m.
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:48:17 -0600, you wrote:
I had a TI Programmer LED model. It died a horrible
death. I don't know
what became of it. I have the model that replaced it, a TI Programmer II,
an LCD model. It has number keys with binary representations ghosted over
the keys, CE, XOR, AND, OR to the left of the numbers, oh heck:
ON/C
DEC HEX OCT K OFF
STO RCL SUM ( )
SHF D E F / (<--divide symbol)
1'sC A B C X
OR 7 8 9 -
AND 4 5 6 +
XOR 1 2 3
CE 0 . +/- =
I used to use this thing all the time. I really should get some batteries
for it. I need a pair of Varta V13GA or similar.
There is a sort of a programmer's calculator hidden in as one of the
modes of the calculator built into my PalmOS-based Handspring Visor.
It has the Hex/Binary/Octal/Dec modes and the logic and arithmetic
functions of the classic Programmer's calculators. It's probably the
'default' calculator for all of the PalmOS (~3.0) devices from various
vendors (including Palm, if you must)
It is not anywhere as 'nice' an option as a classic 'real button'
calculator, lacking real buttons (touchscreen mapped keyboard) but
something that will do from time to time. And Visors and Palm PDAs of
that vintage go fairly cheap on eBay these days, particular old and
less 'glamorous' models with limited memory and greyscale/Black&White
screens.
27 Nov
27 Nov
10:11 p.m.
Hi,
Dave Dunfield said:
I know guys who did a *LOT* with their ZX80 - they are
a capable machine. But,
their limitations make them look very poor when compared to other more traditional
designs. To appreciate the ZX, you need to keep in mind that it is SUPPOSED to be
a very minimal machine. It makes more sense as an alternative to a programmable
calculator than as an alternative to a word processing or serious software
development machine.
Take at look at what these guys are doing, assuming they're still going:
http://home.freiepresse.de/befis/zx96_e.htm
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
28 Nov
28 Nov
9:13 a.m.
New subject: ZX96 (was: ZX81 denigrated!)
That link appears dead.
The current ZX96 English-language page is at:
http://www.fischerkai.de/zxteam/zx96_e.htm
Comments?
Glen
0/0
----- Original Message -----
From: Stan Barr <stanb(a)dial.pipex.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: ZX81 denigrated! (was Re: Approaches to projects)
Hi,
Dave Dunfield said:
> I know guys who did a *LOT* with their ZX80 - they are a capable
machine.
But,
> their limitations make them look very poor when
compared to other more
traditional
> designs. To appreciate the ZX, you need to keep
in mind that it is
SUPPOSED to be
> a very minimal machine. It makes more sense as an
alternative to a
programmable
> calculator than as an alternative to a word
processing or serious
software
development
machine.
Take at look at what these guys are doing, assuming they're still going:
http://home.freiepresse.de/befis/zx96_e.htm
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
7174
days inactive
7176
days old
15 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
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acme＠gbronline.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave04a＠dunfield.com -
dr.ido＠bigpond.net.au -
pcw＠mesanet.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
tpeters＠mixcom.com