24 Nov
2009
24 Nov
'09
9:43 a.m.
On the other hand, it isn't impossible to find
used red packs.
CLEAN packs may be more difficult, though.
One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack
is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it,
and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this
in the future.
Speaking of Farris - is someone keeping an eye on them? Some day they
are going to call it quits, and they have quite the pile to be saved.
--
Will
24 Nov
24 Nov
10:58 a.m.
One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to
*properly* clean a pack
is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it,
and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this
in the future.
I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack?
(disclaimer: I have nothing DEC, although I had a 11/750 years
ago...miss him. I'm asking just out of curiosity, to enhance my knowledge,
blah blah blah. You have been warned. Your milegage may vary. Batteries not
incluided, void were prohibited, blah blah blah.)
:o)
10:29 a.m.
On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05
and RL packs):
1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air
2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and
lint free cloths
3. disassemble the pack
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also
provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter
that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too
time consuming to waste on a marginal pack)
5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths.
6. use lots of compressed air
7. reassemble the pack
It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright
well lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash
since I started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this
way. However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-(
TTFN - Guy
One thing that
I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a
pack
is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it,
and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this
in the future.
I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack?
11:55 a.m.
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths.
This also provides
the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows
any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming
to waste on a marginal pack)
Thanks for the info, Guy! Very interesting information! :o) But isn't
there any kind of lubrification on the surfaces of these packs?
5:58 p.m.
On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Why would there be? The heads *never* touch the surface (if they do
that's a head crash). It's not like modern non-pack drives. The
heads are retracted back so they are completely clear of the surface
(s). Otherwise how would you remove the pack?
TTFN - Guy
4. clean
platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also
provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any
platter that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head
crash is too time consuming to waste on a marginal pack)
Thanks for the info, Guy! Very interesting information! :o) But
isn't there any kind of lubrification on the surfaces of these packs? 
12:53 p.m.
That's pretty much the method I use, mostly on RK05 packs. I think I still
have 2 alignment packs, which I should clean before using. I had a homemade
RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to someone on the
list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about 2 years
ago. Haven't heard from him since. I have 1 or 2 new linear positioners, and
maybe a few used ones here somewhere
Paul
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack
Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05 and
RL packs):
1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air
2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and lint
free cloths
3. disassemble the pack
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also provides the
opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows any
abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming to waste
on a marginal pack)
5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths.
6. use lots of compressed air
7. reassemble the pack
It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright well
lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash since I
started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way.
However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-(
TTFN - Guy
is going
away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it,
and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this
in the future.
I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack?
1:08 p.m.
Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk platters in the pack
matter on these systems? I suppose it might for interleaving purposes for data already
recorded.
________________________________
From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:53:27 PM
Subject: Re: Cleaning packs
That's pretty much the method I use, mostly on RK05 packs. I think I still
have 2 alignment packs, which I should clean before using. I had a homemade
RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to someone on the
list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about 2 years
ago. Haven't heard from him since. I have 1 or 2 new linear positioners, and
maybe a few used ones here somewhere
Paul
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack
Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05 and
RL packs):
1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air
2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and lint
free cloths
3. disassemble the pack
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also provides the
opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows any
abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming to waste
on a marginal pack)
5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths.
6. use lots of compressed air
7. reassemble the pack
It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright well
lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash since I
started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way.
However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-(
TTFN - Guy
is going
away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it,
and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this
in the future.
I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack?
2:13 p.m.
Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk
platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for
interleaving purposes for data already recorded.
Yes! Most of these drives are hard-secotred, the sector start is
determined by notches in the hub. If you move the platter(s) relative to
the hub, you'll not be able to read the sectors any more.
-tony
6:04 p.m.
On Nov 24, 2009, at 1:08 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote:
Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions
of the disk
platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for
interleaving purposes for data already recorded.
I would suspect yes but never having cleaned multi-platter packs, I'd
only do that on packs that I don't care about the data (ie I'm going
to format the pack as soon as it's "clean"). If I care about the data
that *might* be on them I probably wouldn't disassemble (ie de-stack)
the pack.
TTFN - Guy
________________________________
From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:53:27 PM
Subject: Re: Cleaning packs
That's pretty much the method I use, mostly on RK05 packs. I think I
still
have 2 alignment packs, which I should clean before using. I had a
homemade
RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to
someone on the
list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about
2 years
ago. Haven't heard from him since. I have 1 or 2 new linear
positioners, and
maybe a few used ones here somewhere
Paul
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>
wrote:
On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a
pack
Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned
RK05 and
RL packs):
1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air
2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol
and lint
free cloths
3. disassemble the pack
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also
provides the
opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows
any
abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming
to waste
on a marginal pack)
5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths.
6. use lots of compressed air
7. reassemble the pack
It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a
bright well
lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash
since I
started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way.
However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-(
TTFN - Guy
is going
away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do
it,
and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do
this
in the future.
I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack?
25 Nov
25 Nov
1:18 p.m.
On Nov 24, 2009, at 1:08 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote:
I qwould be very careful about dismantling the pack for another reason.
Often there is no automatic centring of the platters. If you seprate
them, you will have to centre them up. On the (crashed) 5-platter pack I
dismantled about 25 years ago (for interest), there were holes throuch
the top and bottom hparts of the hub through which you put long rods to
keep the platters and spacers _approximately_ cententerd. But then, I
think, you have to put the hu on the drive spindle (or a similar spindle
in a test rig) nd use a dial gauge to position the platters so there's
no run-out when you rotate the stack by hand. Given that moving one
platter is likely to slightly move all the others, this is a long and
tedious job.
-tony
Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative
positions of the disk
platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for
interleaving purposes for data already recorded.
I would suspect yes but never having cleaned multi-platter packs, I'd
only do that on packs that I don't care about the data (ie I'm going
to format the pack as soon as it's "clean"). If I care about the data
that *might* be on them I probably wouldn't disassemble (ie de-stack)
the pack. 
29 Nov
29 Nov
12:51 p.m.
Paul Anderson wrote:
I had a homemade
RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to someone on the
list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about 2 years
ago. Haven't heard from him since.
It's me. I still have it. I did 1/2
the job and then fell off the
planet with one of several
crazy consulting gigs. Customers... always gettting in the way of my
fun :-)
The good news is that I recently picked up two nice RK05J's and I plan
to get them
operational in the near future. I previously restored an RK05 in much
worse condition so
I'm hip to all the foam/filter/belt/voice-coil issues. At least some of
them anyway.
I promise to finish the job and return your tester. I should be able to
get get it done by year end.
And I'll publish everything as usual.
-brad
24 Nov
24 Nov
3:20 p.m.
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05
and RL packs):
1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air
2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and
lint free cloths
3. disassemble the pack
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also
provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter
that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too
time consuming to waste on a marginal pack)
5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths.
6. use lots of compressed air
7. reassemble the pack
It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright
well lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash
since I started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this
way. However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-(
TTFN - Guy
Seems straightforward enough. What is the source of compressed air and
what kind of lint free cloth do you use? Does vacuum have any use?
I imagine the process of cleaning an RK05 drive would be very similar.
Basically remove ALL the dust and then put it back together. Has anyone
experience in cleaning an RK05 drive? I have one that was left open for
several years before the machine was decommissioned.
-chuck
3:33 p.m.
Hi,
I imagine the process of cleaning an RK05 drive would
be very similar.
Basically remove ALL the dust and then put it back together. Has anyone
experience in cleaning an RK05 drive? I have one that was left open for
several years before the machine was decommissioned.
I got a very dirty one. Too dirty to touch...... I "defoamed" it using a
vacuum cleaner. Then I cleaned everything I could easily reach using a
wet cloth from the kitchen. So the drive still looks not too nice
inside. The heads were cleaned with IPA and "kitchen roll". Running
nicely....
Take care of foam residues and dirt in the air filter outlet. Keep in
mind that almost all dirt and dust that is not on the heads or in the
air filter outlet can be ignored.... Pure cosmetics.
Philipp
6:14 p.m.
On Nov 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote:
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Compressed air = air compressor with pressure regulator with filter
and water & oil trap (ie not a "hobby" air compressor). I have a
few. The "big" one is for running air tools (ie working on cars and
such). My smaller one I usually have the regulator set at 20psi and I
use a "blow gun" attachment.
I purchase disposable lint free cloths.
Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned
RK05 and RL packs):
1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air
2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol
and lint free cloths
3. disassemble the pack
4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also
provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any
platter that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head
crash is too time consuming to waste on a marginal pack)
5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths.
6. use lots of compressed air
7. reassemble the pack
It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a
bright well lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single
head crash since I started doing this. I've probably done a few
dozen packs this way. However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-(
TTFN - Guy
Seems straightforward enough. What is the source of compressed air
and what kind of lint free cloth do you use? Does vacuum have any use?
I imagine the process of cleaning an RK05 drive would be very
similar. Basically remove ALL the dust and then put it back
together. Has anyone experience in cleaning an RK05 drive? I have
one that was left open for several years before the machine was
decommissioned.
That's it basically except for dealing with the "DEC foam" which I
always replace (unless it's obvious that it was recently done).
TTFN - Guy
1:34 p.m.
It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so
we can do this
in the future.
For RK05s (which is what we started out discussing), the procedure for
cleaning the pack is in the maintenance manual. This is a fairly complete
procesure involving opening the plastic case and cleaning the disk iteslf
with a 91%/9% misuture of propan-2-ol and distilled water.
At least one edition of the manual includes the wonderful instruction
'Dry dust can be blwon of wiht the mouth. Do NOT spit on the disk'
Also, IIRC, when reassembling the casing, you _must_ insert a screw then
turn it anticlockwise until the threads engange before doing it up. If
you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you run the
risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk.
For the RLs and RK07s, etc, DEC specifically told you not to attempt any
cleaning other than the outside of the plasic housing. I would be very
interested to know how to go further than that!
-tony
3:29 p.m.
Also, IIRC, when reassembling the casing, you _must_
insert a screw then
turn it anticlockwise until the threads engange before doing it up. If
you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you run the
risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk.
This is something you should do in everything :)
3:28 p.m.
< If you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you
Of course. If you don't
take care, you get lose screws....
But... Info from DEC field service (no joke, one of my 8/Ls has been
repaired for me by an original DEC field service engineer!!!) is the
following: "It's not the "big stuff" that is dangerous for the disk
system, it's everything that fits between the head and the disk surface.
Normal dust and other stuff is simply kicked away"
I use near 100% IPA to clean packs. And kitchen roll. And some force.
But I take care not to scratch packs. I got a crashed pack back to life.
After loading such a cleaned pack, I always get some "dinging" sounds
when I move the heads over the surface for the first time. But then it's
ok. I tend to clean the heads after hearing noise.
I once had a real crash. Came from foam residue entering the cartridge.
What a mess! After cleaning, the drive and pack survived the data
reliability test (3.5 hours) without any problems without any single
error. DEC's original checkout criteria allowed to have a few soft
errors during this. But there was no error at all. I'm still using both.
And I sometime run the RK05 a whole day (especially when it's cold
outside...).
(Talking about RK05, no other experience)
Best wishes,
Philipp
run the risk
of puting little bits of plastic on the disk.
This is something you should do in everything :)
25 Nov
25 Nov
12:57 p.m.
< If you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you
Of course. If you don't
take care, you get lose screws....
Yes, if you re-cut the threads too many times. And then you have to stic
k some plastic shavings down the hole with a suitable solvent and try
again.
run the
risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk.
This is something you should do in everything :) But... Info from DEC field service (no joke, one of my
8/Ls has been
repaired for me by an original DEC field service engineer!!!) is the
following: "It's not the "big stuff" that is dangerous for the disk
system, it's everything that fits between the head and the disk surface.
Normal dust and other stuff is simply kicked away"
Hmmm. I would take that with a pinch of NaCl.
To be fari, the RK05 is _very_ forgiving. Even after a real headcrash the
heads are quite often still useable. Other drives may be a lot less easy
to keep going.
-tony
12:54 p.m.
Also, IIRC, when reassembling the casing, you
_must_ insert a screw then
turn it anticlockwise until the threads engange before doing it up. If
you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you run the
risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk.
This is something you should do in everything :)
3:05 p.m.
This is
something you should do in everything :)
Agreed. But the DEC RK05 manual is the
only one I've seen that
specifically tells you to do it.
26 Nov
26 Nov
10:44 a.m.
This
is something you should do in everything :)
Agreed. But the DEC RK05 manual is the
only one I've seen that
specifically tells you to do it. - Turning back the screw until you feels a
"bump" not to cross-thread
the hole
Particularly for self-tapping screws and threaded things that are
large-diameter compared to the pitch (e.g. locking rings in optical systems)
Related to that, if you have a number of screws holding something down,
fit and tighten them in a diagonal pattern. Many older books descried
this as ;ike torquing down the cylinder head on an engine' but I guess
few people have done that these days.
This is so ingraained in me that I even do it for things like the covers
on plastic project boxes.
-tony
27 Nov
27 Nov
9:50 a.m.
On Nov 26, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
This is frightening and disheartening. But yes, I see lots of
evidence of this every day. It makes me sick.
I'm
horrified to think that there are people who *don't* do that.
Dave, people who know "the works" are so uncommon that you'd be
surprised. I still believe the Radio Amateurs' Handbook
should be used on
schools...
Me too!!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
1:04 p.m.
Dave,
people who know "the works" are so uncommon that you'd be
surprised.
This is frightening and disheartening. But yes, I see lots of evidence of this every day. It makes me sick.
I witnessard an incidnet the other day (I will discuss it off-list only!)
which could have beena lot more serious than it was. But I am convinced
that if one of the people involved had had a very slight knowledge of
motor car engineering, it wouldn't have happeend at all.
> I still believe the Radio Amateurs' Handbook
should be used on
> schools...
Of failing that, H&H (for some odd reason this book is not popular in
educational establishments ove here...)
it others me -- a lot -- that the lowest level amatuer radio license over
here prohibits you from designing a transmitter. You have to use a
ready-uilt one, or one built from an approved kit (or maybe to an
approved design). Ouch!. Fortunately I have the full license...
-tony
3:22 p.m.
On Nov 27, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Of failing that, H&H (for some odd reason this
book is not popular in
educational establishments ove here...)
That's odd. H&H is a fantastic book. I have the great honor of
having the second 'H' (Win Hill) on a mailing list that I run. The
day he subscribed, I called my mother to tell her about it. :)
it others me -- a lot -- that the lowest level amatuer
radio
license over
here prohibits you from designing a transmitter. You have to use a
ready-uilt one, or one built from an approved kit (or maybe to an
approved design). Ouch!. Fortunately I have the full license...
Waaaaaitaminute. That kinda goes against one of the fundamental
tenets of ham radio!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
26 Nov
26 Nov
12:11 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Whispers *hot glue* after hiding all the TAR and Feathers.
This is so ingraained in me that I even do it for
things like the covers
on plastic project boxes.
I'm horrified to think that there are people who *don't* do that.
-Dave
5502
days inactive
5507
days old
28 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
chd_1＠nktelco.net -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
hachti＠hachti.de -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
oltmansg＠bellsouth.net -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
useddec＠gmail.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com