15 Feb
2002
15 Feb
'02
3:38 p.m.
Hi,
so I just came home from BSDcon 2002 (was nice to see all the
old names as life people with noses in their faces.) Anyway
I just came home and there my new KFQSA card I got on eBay was
in the mail. So, now I can finally use some of my DSSI disks
that I bought for the time I'd get a KFMSA, now I get to use
the in my uVAX instead of having to bother with formatting that
MFM disk :-).
I don't know much about DSSI however and I'm not sure I have
all the pieces I need. I have a KFQSA, a 50-60 pin cable,
round and two connectors each side, then a bus cable, same
number of pins to be connected to that round cable and 3
connectors, apparently for three drives. Good. But at the
end of that cable is a male connector with about half as
many pins. What is that for, please don't say it's a terminator,
where the heck would I get such a terminator from? Could I
just connect the round cable directly to one DSSI drive without
that bus cable, such that I would not need that terminator?
Then there are some DIP switches on the card, what are they
for?
And of course the drives have front panels and I have three
drives and just one front panel. How essential is that front
panel?
Has anyone ever installed DSSI in a uVAX-II with the small
cabinet? It's pretty tight in there. How about this: right
now there is that cable for the RQDX3 that goes into the
front part of the box and apparently is spliced there to
connect to the MFM drive and the RX33/50 (?) floppy drive.
What if I throw all this stuff out and use that flat cable
to route the KFQSA into the front and hook up the DSSI
drive where I have the MFM drive now and put in a TK50
where the RX50 is now. Anyone ever done that?
I must also say I really appreciate the VAXBI and XMI busses
with their zero-insertion force and their clean way of
connecting peripherals all to the backplane instead of
just anywhere in the front. The way these Q-BUS and UNIBUS cards
are jammed into their slots with all the cables squeezed
between those cards, and the cards all bent to make room for
the cables and connectors is not beautiful, if not frightening.
Isn't that terribly rough on the hardware?
regards
-Gunther
--
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org
Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org
16 Feb
16 Feb
1:54 a.m.
On 16 Feb, Gunther Schadow wrote:
I don't know much about DSSI however
In
terms of cablning it is similar to SCSI. One bus, no Y, terminators
at bouth ends. Every drive needs his ID.
But at the end of that cable is a male connector with
about
half as many pins.
Sure about the pins? DSSI uses HD-DB 50 for external
connectors.
What is that for,
External devices or...
please don't say it's a terminator,
a
terminator.
where the heck would I get such a terminator from?
Comcrap?
Could I
just connect the round cable directly to one DSSI drive without
that bus cable, such that I would not need that terminator?
Hmm. I have a RF72 DSSI
disk in my MV 3900 _without_ terminator. This is
not the way it schould, but as the cable from the KFQSA to the drive is
only around 30cm, it works.
And of course the drives have front panels and I have
three
drives and just one front panel. How essential is that front
panel?
front panel != front panel. There are panels that can be connected to
three drives... The main purpose of the panel is to select the drive ID.
The RF72 in my MV3900 runns fine without panel.
Has anyone ever installed DSSI in a uVAX-II with the
small
cabinet?
You mean a BA23?
[RQDX3 cable]
What if I throw all this stuff out and use that flat
cable
to route the KFQSA into the front and hook up the DSSI
drive where I have the MFM drive now and put in a TK50
where the RX50 is now. Anyone ever done that?
Never done that, but it should work.
You don't need to unmount the RQDX3
distribution panel, just unplug the cable. Beware of the twist in the
cable. I had once a cable from a BA23 with that ID noses on the
connectors. One of the connectors was crimped the wrong way, i.e. pin 1
to pin 50. Due to the nose it was not possible to use the cable for
somthing else. But this problem can be fixed with a knife...
I must also say I really appreciate the VAXBI and XMI
busses
with their zero-insertion force and their clean way of
connecting peripherals all to the backplane instead of
just anywhere in the front.
Grmbl, grmbl. Not everyone is the happy owner of
multiple VAX 6000
systems ... So we MicroVAXer have to be satisfied with ordinary QBus
systems.
--
tschuess,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz
5:29 a.m.
But at the end
of that cable is a male connector with about
half as many pins.
Sure about the pins? DSSI uses HD-DB 50 for external
connectors. 
8:22 a.m.
At 12:38 AM 2/16/02 -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote:
I just came home and there my new KFQSA card I got on
eBay was
in the mail..
Great fun
I don't know much about DSSI however and I'm
not sure I have
all the pieces I need. I have a KFQSA, a 50-60 pin cable,
round and two connectors each side, then a bus cable, same
number of pins to be connected to that round cable and 3
connectors, apparently for three drives. Good. But at the
end of that cable is a male connector with about half as
many pins. What is that for, please don't say it's a terminator,
You have the 'innards' of the MicroVAX 3800/3900. The KFQSA connects to the
round cable it routes up through the BA213 then plugs on to the longer
cable which plugs into the three drives installed in the BA213 and then
exits on the left where you put, yes, the terminator.
The only thing you are missing is the drive bulkhead that lets you tell the
drive what Unit number it should appear as.
where the heck would I get such a terminator from?
Someone on the port-vax list ? :-)
Could I
just connect the round cable directly to one DSSI drive without
that bus cable, such that I would not need that terminator?
No. However, I've run DSSI drives that did not have termination and while
it did cause more retries than normal, it was ok for short term use. Send
me your address off list and I'll see if I can find a terminator for you.
Then there are some DIP switches on the card, what are
they
for?
You will need to search in the archives, and this is where you will have
some problems.
The KFQSA is a "smart" board. It can appear as 1, 2, 3, or even 6
MSCP/TMSCP controllers on the Qbus. Further, the drives themselves are
"smart" in that they talk to the controller like they are little HSC units.
All architecturally complete but someone complicated for simple setups.
There is a combination of the switches that will force the KFQSA to control
one drive and be one MSCP controller and whatever the drive thinks still
call it unit 0.
And of course the drives have front panels and I have
three
drives and just one front panel. How essential is that front
panel?
It comes in handy but you can run without it.
Has anyone ever installed DSSI in a uVAX-II with the
small
cabinet? It's pretty tight in there. How about this: right
now there is that cable for the RQDX3 that goes into the
front part of the box and apparently is spliced there to
connect to the MFM drive and the RX33/50 (?) floppy drive.
What if I throw all this stuff out and use that flat cable
to route the KFQSA into the front and hook up the DSSI
drive where I have the MFM drive now and put in a TK50
where the RX50 is now. Anyone ever done that?
I believe Megan Gentry has a setup like that. The issue is that there is no
provision on the DSSI drive itself to be terminated so you need to have
another connector coming off the drive to hang the terminator on. An
alternative you might consider is having the drive mount in an external
5.25" drive box and run the flat cable out to it. It wouldn't look very
pretty but you could put the terminator on it that way.
I must also say I really appreciate the VAXBI and XMI
busses
with their zero-insertion force and their clean way of
connecting peripherals all to the backplane instead of
just anywhere in the front. The way these Q-BUS and UNIBUS cards
are jammed into their slots with all the cables squeezed
between those cards, and the cards all bent to make room for
the cables and connectors is not beautiful, if not frightening.
Isn't that terribly rough on the hardware?
Generally, yes. Sometimes you can get a crack in a PCB trace that is only
an open circuit when the board is flexed *just* the right way.
I think you'll be happier with a BA213 but it should be possible to do what
you want to do.
--Chuck
12:08 p.m.
O.K. thanks to Jochen and Chuck and from some Google search I
learned that:
- terminator isn't absolutely necesary
- I can hook up the round cable directly to one drive
- don't need the front panel with the unit id if I set
the KFQSA to be unit 0 only
I could actually squeeze the round cable under the qbus backplane
where the RQDX3 cable runs through. So, it looks pretty neat now.
The Qbus is a full house (aren't the board touching each other
possibly causing all kinds of shorts?)
Anyway, my biggest problem was the power hookup which is
different on the RF72 from the normal ones that any SCSI,
IDE, MFM, TK70, etc. drives have. Luckily I could find a
connector in my nick-nack box but I don't know if I have
connected it properly, it doesn't work right. Here is how
I connected:
rd bl bl or/yl
| | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
||||||||||||DSSI||||||||||||| wt rd bl bl or
I removed that connector from a little adapder board on a
mounting bracket that I got with one of the drives. The
traced on that board told me that the orange cable isn't
connected at all and the white cable is hooked in the
middle of the series of pins that make the DSSI connector.
So I concluded that the white cable would better not be
connected to the power feed and left it open. But somehow
this isn't right.
What happens now when I power up is that the drive will
emit no sounds at all, like spinning or attempting to spin
or seeking or anything. When I do connect my one and only
front-panel I see all three LEDs lit: error, run, and
read-only. And no change when I push any of those buttons.
So, I suspect that my power hookup is wrong, could you
tell me how this power thing should be connected?
Thanks,
-Gunther
--
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org
Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org
12:23 p.m.
On Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 09:08:57PM -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote:
- don't need the front panel with the unit id if I set
the KFQSA to be unit 0 only
actually, you can connect to the drives and set their IDs in software. you
don't need the plugs. you need to know what ID they are (0 without a plug)
and then plug them into the machine one at a time and set their IDs to whatever
you want, then you can plug them all into the same bus.
DSSI rules. :)
-brian
1:22 p.m.
actually, you can connect to the drives and set their
IDs in software. you
don't need the plugs. you need to know what ID they are (0 without a plug)
and then plug them into the machine one at a time and set their IDs to whatever
you want, then you can plug them all into the same bus.
You don't even need to know the initial ID, as long as you
have one drive at a time. Scanning the bus will tell you
the ID.
DSSI rules. :)
I like DSSI. I which there was a high-speed followup.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/
3:45 p.m.
Eric Dittman / Brian Hechinger wrote:
Yes I like DSSI too, but could you give me an idea about
how the power supply plug for the RF drives are wired?
-Gunther
--
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org
Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org
actually, you
can connect to the drives and set their IDs in software. you
don't need the plugs. you need to know what ID they are (0 without a plug)
and then plug them into the machine one at a time and set their IDs to whatever
you want, then you can plug them all into the same bus.
You don't even need to know the initial ID, as long as you
have one drive at a time. Scanning the bus will tell you
the ID.
DSSI rules. :)
I like DSSI. I which there was a high-speed followup.
4:19 p.m.
actually, you can connect to the drives and set their
IDs in software. you
don't need the plugs. you need to know what ID they are (0 without a plug)
and then plug them into the machine one at a time and set their IDs to whatever
you want, then you can plug them all into the same bus.
You don't even need to know the initial ID, as long as you
have one drive at a time. Scanning the bus will tell you
the ID.
DSSI rules. :)
I like DSSI. I which there was a high-speed followup. 
17 Feb
17 Feb
2:56 a.m.
DSSI rules. :)
I do tend to like it as well.
Yes I like DSSI too, but could you give me an idea
about
how the power supply plug for the RF drives are wired?
I suppose I could find this out for you if it's important.
My question for the list:
I have seen control panels only with ID select keys of 0, 1
and 2. Anyone have higher numbered ones?
John A.
6 a.m.
My question for the list:
I have seen control panels only with ID select keys of 0, 1
and 2. Anyone have higher numbered ones?
I have a set, along with some blanks (clip off the right pins
to create the ID needed). I may have some spares. How many
do you need?
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/
4:42 a.m.
On 2002.02.17 03:08 Gunther Schadow wrote:
- terminator isn't absolutely necesary
If
DSSI uses similar line drivers as SCSI (OC), terminators _are_
absolutely necesary, as they put a defined signal level on the signal
lines. You _may_ get it going with only one terminator if the cable is
really short. 25cm or 30cm as in my setup. You have one terminator on
the KFQSA. Make sure it is installed.
rd bl bl or/yl
| | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
||||||||||||DSSI||||||||||||| wt rd bl bl or
The white line is power good from
the PSU or front panel, normaly +5V.
Red is +5V power from the PSU.
Black is GND.
Orange / yellow is 12V power from the PSU.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
5:41 a.m.
Great! Got it working. Don't know about the terminator-less
performance yet, but after connecting the white line, the
disk spins up and goes through normal tests etc.
Now, the question is what's next. I don't have the TK50
drive in there but a TQK50 card, I do have a TK70 drive but
no TQK70 card (was snipered away from me on the deal where
I got that KFQSA, ah well.) The uVAX-II console doesn't seem
to allow any DSSI configuration check/debugging/setting, so
my next step would be to boot NetBSD through BOOT XQA0 or
from the RX50 drive right?
thanks,
-Gunther
--
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org
Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org
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