23 Oct
2001
23 Oct
'01
3:40 p.m.
I talked to Ken this afternoon.
He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage
and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and
sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000
Well, hey, if a CoCo is worth $2500 . . .
Glen
0/0
23 Oct
23 Oct
5:25 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
We'll if there's a complete working PDP-10 (KL10), with
disks, it might have a collector value of 20-30K$US,
but you'd have to search carefully to find a rich buyer...
Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$,
as might a KA10 or KI10. If all that was needed to
cover back-rent was 3-4KUS$, then a couple of PDP-8s
or early PDP-11s should do the trick.
There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen paying
big dollars for not so rare machines...I've even heard
of unscrupulous "museum" collectors selling off machines
that were donated to so called ~not-for-profit~ organizations.
I don't think paying the rent is a bad idea, but selling off
donated valuable items for huge personal profit is wrong,
unless of course, you paid for or removed the machines,
made no misrepresentations, and it's a legitimate business.
Still no matter what the source, it would bet better for these
machines to find good homes (even in eccentric millionaire's
collections) than to end up in the scrap heap or raped for their
gold plating.
I wonder what item Al K. is looking for that could be worth
any good part of 100KUS$, or 3KUS$ ;)
Regards,
Heinz Wolter
Glen Goodwin wrote :
I talked to
Ken this afternoon.
He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage
and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and
sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000
Well, hey, if a CoCo is worth $2500 . . .
10:17 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
We'll if there's a complete working PDP-10
(KL10), with disks, it
might have a collector value of 20-30K$US, but you'd have to search
carefully to find a rich buyer...
"Might" being the operative word.
Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$,
...to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and absolutely HAS to have
the first PDP-1 he comes across or else he'll die, no exceptions.
I can't think of any such collector that exists.
There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen paying
big dollars for
not so rare machines...
The particular frenzy you are referring to bombed out with the stock
market.
I think you misread the message, but I just wanted to dispel the myths you
forwarded :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
24 Oct
24 Oct
2:02 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
> Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$,
..to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and
absolutely HAS to have the first PDP-1...
Worth, Costs, Is Valued at... all highly relativistic concepts
don't you think?
What about history? My book says that only 50 PDP-1's
were produced. Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped.
Anybody know where all the PDP-1's are? I'd like to see
one (or more).
John A.
BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW
and docs can fetch over $4K, to the original question.
John A.
2:55 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote:
BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW
and docs can fetch over $4K, to the original question.
Really? I wonder how much my 11/70 with all original fuses, bulbs,
switches, etc. is worth.
Peace... Sridhar
6:04 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote:
I take exception to Heinz' proclamation that it is "certainly" worth that
much. I disagree with his value. Yes, this pricing is all relative and
subjective.
> Now a
PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$,
..to a collector who had US$100K to throw away
and
absolutely HAS to have the first PDP-1...
Worth, Costs, Is Valued at... all highly relativistic concepts
don't you think? What about history? My book says that only 50
PDP-1's were produced.
Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped. Anybody know where all the
PDP-1's are? I'd like to see one (or more).
Maybe Heinz wants to pay US$100K for a PDP-1, but I don't think the rarity
and demand for this system justifies such a value.
BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW
and docs can
fetch over $4K, to the original question.
Sounds reasonable to me, but it also depends highly on the particular
model.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:16 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Sellam Ismail wrote:
I'd pay 4k$ for a pristine 11/45 with tape & disks running Unix v6, but you
couldn't probably give away an 11/70 ? Why? Some machines are just
more lovable than others ;) The '45 was the first non IBM machine I used,
so it holds some sentimental value. Many people spending thousands on
30+ year old metal probably do it because it brings back fond memories-
for them - and maybe for no one else. It's a very personal thing. For many,
it's the idea of having a real machine with lights and switches and noisy
fans that couldn't possibly ever run anything made by Microsoft ;)
Would it surpise you to know of customers' standing orders for PDP10
KA/KI machines in the $US140 range? Is that too much for unobtanium?
I wouldn't be keen n such a machine, unless I already had a KS, a KL etc.
Offhand, what do people think a working KS10 would go for? 10K$?
Putting a value on old machines is of course a pointless task. Most of
us would never sell our beloved machines, and most of them have
negative value to pretty well any normal individual. It's sad that some
rich collectors buy up anything classic, and drive the prices up. But that's
life. If I just paid 4k$ for a machine that will make me happy, should I
be upset to hear that someone else picked one up for free? It doesn't
make the free machine worth 4k$ (maybe to someone), but it also doesn't
make the 4k$ machine worthless. We should not be upset to see people
put prices on these machines; though it might make some reluctant to
give them away for free...
Heinz
I take exception to Heinz' proclamation that it is
"certainly" worth that
much. I disagree with his value. Yes, this pricing is all relative and
subjective.
It wasn't exactly a proclamation; just an opinion based on 20 years of
collecting DEC, and seeing and knowing what the prices are.
I agree it's truly relative. Check out Ebay for some steals and rip-offs.
It is, and always has been a matter of whatever the market will bear.
Maybe Heinz wants to pay US$100K for a PDP-1, but I
don't think the rarity
and demand for this system justifies such a value.
I never said I'd pay that. But someone would... If I was so rich as not to
notice 100k$, I'd have people scouting machines for me, as Mr. Allen does.
If I was planning to open a computer museum and had every (close to) other
machine DEC ever made - wouldn't I make that extra effort for the PDP-1?
We're talking obsessed here - most collectors aren't exactly ~normal~ ;)
If you have such a machine to sell, the trick is to find someone crazier
than you...
BTW, on
thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW and docs can
fetch over $4K, to the original question.
Sounds reasonable to me, but it also depends highly on the particular
model.
2:40 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
But that's life. If I just paid 4k$ for a machine
that will make me
happy, should I be upset to hear that someone else picked one up for
free? It doesn't make the free machine worth 4k$ (maybe to someone),
but it also doesn't make the 4k$ machine worthless. We should not be
upset to see people put prices on these machines; though it might make
some reluctant to give them away for free...
Everything has some value to some person. What has bugged me, and this
community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in
pricing caused by eBay.
I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get $X
for it on eBay".
Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price
guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known
very soon.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8:14 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the
form of a price
guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known
very soon.
Maybe it will make some money for the author, but prices are just too
variable and too fast changing for a printed guide to be of much practical
use. What I would rather see is a hunters handbook, say 125 pages with the
top 500 things to look for, each item getting an average of a 1/4 page for
a photo, or maybe a shared photo, with a description and price range. Sell
one to every scrapper in the world, and those 500 things become a LOT more
available.
working title, "How much money did you throw away today?"
25 Oct
25 Oct
6:27 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
Maybe it will make some money for the author, but
prices are just too
variable and too fast changing for a printed guide to be of much
practical use. What I would rather see is a hunters handbook, say 125
pages with the top 500 things to look for, each item getting an
average of a 1/4 page for a photo, or maybe a shared photo, with a
description and price range. Sell one to every scrapper in the world,
and those 500 things become a LOT more available.
The guide I speak of is in the manner of what you describe.
Prices are in ranges. The underlying caveat, as with anything, is that
actual value can range from "free" to "umpteen gazillion dollars".
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:51 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
At 07:40 PM 10/24/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Everything has some value to some person. What has
bugged me, and this
community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in
pricing caused by eBay.
Wow, now you're speaking for the "community as a whole".
A quick review of the archives would reveal a number of
people who aren't "bugged" by eBay.
This is like blaming the Internet for societal woes.
The market spoke, and it said, "We need a sanfordandson.com,
for there isn't a nation-wide market for the salt-and-pepper
shaker collections we were unable to unload at the
rummage sale last Saturday." And the market saw that it
was good, and that it was one of the few Internet plays
where a single site made the most sense.
And never mind the Beanie Baby collectors or the baseball
card traders, as it turns out there was pent-up unmet
demand for national and worldwide trading of old computer bits.
And prices crested, and more old crap came out of the closet,
and nerds were fulfilled, and prices dropped. All Econ 101
and nothing to lose sleep about. You might as well blame
this mailing list or VCF 1.0 for inflated prices due to increased
awareness - which leads to demand, which leads to higher prices,
which leads to more people searching, which leads to a glut,
which leads to lower prices than before.
Don't fret about Altair prices - tell me why it's nearly
impossible to sell an old 486, but hoo-boy, you can probably
rip the old 2x CD-ROM out of it and get $10 on eBay.
To me, that's *interesting.*
I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the
words, "...but I can get $X
for it on eBay".
Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price
guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known
very soon.
A price guide to eBay prices? Neat!
As an aside, I'm now writing a book about pottery. After
writing for and editing computer magazines for years, and
contributing to a number of computer books, I'm pleasantly
surprised that my first self-published book will be about
clay. One of my e-commerce clients, a pottery, has a large
following of collectors who've never had a guidebook, so
I'm going to write it.
Yet even in this backwater collector's realm of one particular
company's line of reproduction salt glaze pottery, you can
go to eBay and there will be 100 to 200 of their pieces online at
any given time. At first, prices changed dramatically.
One little ten-year-old 5-inch Santa figurine went for $485.
Go figure. But now prices have fallen, and for many pieces,
they tend not to be much more than the price you'd find in
a dealer's shop.
- John
2:49 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
As an enthusiast of various hobbies, classic computing included, I've found
that the advent of E-Bay has actually created a few benefits:
1) The word gets out that "such-and-such" is a collectable item, thus
making it worth more than garbage, and somebody who otherwise might have
thrown that TRS-80 Model 4 in the dumpster is actually selling to somebody
who will preserve and use it.
2) Prices tend to stabilize somewhat, as everyone gets a feel for supply
and demand of a certain item. There are always exceptions, but generally
everyone involved gets more of a feeling for what something is worth.
3) Single listing source of obscure items. Sometimes it's worth paying a
little extra to just get that hard-to-find item from an E-Bay seller
quickly, rather than dig through a bunch of warehouses looking for that
elusive item. That takes the fun and excitement out of digging and
discovering, but maybe you need that last piece for your collection, or a
part to fix your prized piece.
In my other hobby of restoring coin-operated arcade games, I've found E-Bay
to be an invaluable resource. It helps me find out what people are willing
to pay for a game, thus setting a pricing range (usually at the upper
limit). It also makes the old game operators think twice before carting
another load of dead games to the landfill. Some games are worth something,
some are not, but most operators will now think twice before junking them.
As more people get involved in a hobby, the demand for items relating to
that hobby increases. It's a fact of life. Anyone see any old Lionel trains
at a garage sale recently? I doubt it. The "I found an N&W J-class for $25
at a garage sale" days are long gone. Those days were long gone before the
home computer user even heard of the Internet. The value of that particular
engine was $1000 in the late eighties.
As more people are exposed to this hobby, from your individual web pages,
newsgroups, mailing lists, and yes, E-Bay, prices for this hobby will rise.
Get used to it, and take a small measure in comfort in the fact that fewer
classic computers will be junked as more people see value in them.
- Matt
At 07:51 AM 10/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
At 07:40 PM 10/24/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
Everything has some value to some person. What
has bugged me, and this
community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in
pricing caused by eBay.
Wow, now you're speaking for the "community as a whole".
A quick review of the archives would reveal a number of
people who aren't "bugged" by eBay.
This is like blaming the Internet for societal woes.
The market spoke, and it said, "We need a sanfordandson.com,
for there isn't a nation-wide market for the salt-and-pepper
shaker collections we were unable to unload at the
rummage sale last Saturday." And the market saw that it
was good, and that it was one of the few Internet plays
where a single site made the most sense.
And never mind the Beanie Baby collectors or the baseball
card traders, as it turns out there was pent-up unmet
demand for national and worldwide trading of old computer bits.
And prices crested, and more old crap came out of the closet,
and nerds were fulfilled, and prices dropped. All Econ 101
and nothing to lose sleep about. You might as well blame
this mailing list or VCF 1.0 for inflated prices due to increased
awareness - which leads to demand, which leads to higher prices,
which leads to more people searching, which leads to a glut,
which leads to lower prices than before.
Don't fret about Altair prices - tell me why it's nearly
impossible to sell an old 486, but hoo-boy, you can probably
rip the old 2x CD-ROM out of it and get $10 on eBay.
To me, that's *interesting.*
I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the
words, "...but I can get $X
for it on eBay".
Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price
guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known
very soon.
A price guide to eBay prices? Neat!
As an aside, I'm now writing a book about pottery. After
writing for and editing computer magazines for years, and
contributing to a number of computer books, I'm pleasantly
surprised that my first self-published book will be about
clay. One of my e-commerce clients, a pottery, has a large
following of collectors who've never had a guidebook, so
I'm going to write it.
Yet even in this backwater collector's realm of one particular
company's line of reproduction salt glaze pottery, you can
go to eBay and there will be 100 to 200 of their pieces online at
any given time. At first, prices changed dramatically.
One little ten-year-old 5-inch Santa figurine went for $485.
Go figure. But now prices have fallen, and for many pieces,
they tend not to be much more than the price you'd find in
a dealer's shop.
- John
5:08 a.m.
New subject: Periodic rants on eBay
Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value
that I know of. Last night, really the past week, I have been digging
deeply into the purchases I have made in the last few months, and I found a
really cool looking box, HP SureStore 12000e. 10 minutes on the HP site,
and I knew all about the buttons on the front, but not what the damn thing
WAS. 2 minutes on eBay and I knew I had a nice 48 GB DDS tape array storage
thing worth $175 or so, that had drivers for windows etc. that I could
download for free (and had the links to do so in the eBay ad).
6:39 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source
of pricing or value
that I know of.
I find this comment to be INcredible.
Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is
"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream.
Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000
because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original
design team members"?
"...credible source of pricing..."
I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a
worthless pro/con debate about it.
I don't use eBay and wouldn't care if a big black hole suddenly formed
where their servers are co-located.
On the other hand, it is the only bright spot in a stock market filled
with downward spiraling stock valuations (if you don't count Bayer and
other companies that are set to benefit from the current state of chaos).
We'll be able to happily consume other people's used crap at inflated
prices while we pop Cipro and don gas masks that we were able to buy once
we were cleared for entry into the stores with our new National ID cards.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:25 a.m.
New subject: Periodic rants on eBay
I don't use eBay and wouldn't care if a big black hole suddenly formed
where their servers are co-located.
On the other hand, it is the only bright spot in a stock market filled
with downward spiraling stock valuations (if you don't count Bayer and
other companies that are set to benefit from the current state of chaos).
We'll be able to happily consume other people's used crap at inflated
prices while we pop Cipro and don gas masks that we were able to buy once
we were cleared for entry into the stores with our new National ID cards.
Sellam Ismail
Sellam, you're a "hard and cynical man." :)
I think that ebay is great for many reasons but the two that matter the most
to me are that it matches sellers with buyers, and I can find nearly
anything that I'm looking for (within reason) at a fair price. I collect
music, books, and old computers. For those items, ebay is hard to beat. It's
like the world's biggest garage sale, and the bottom line is that whenever
something sells there, it means that items is saved from filling our land
fills for at least a little while longer. Besides, how many old computers
have been saved from the scrap heap because they were sold on ebay? How many
TONS of junk were sold rather than thrown away? People make a little money
(rather than none,) UPS makes a bundle of money, and buyers find what they
want. What's the problem with that?
E.
8:12 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
Love it or
hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value
that I know of.
I find this comment to be INcredible.
Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is
"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream.
Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000
because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original
design team members"?
"...credible source of pricing..."
I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a
worthless pro/con debate about it. 
9:56 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
I've got to agree with this caution. I've seen some CRAZY fliers on some items.
I've still got two of my Cromemco TV DAZZLERs, though the dollar signs lit up in
my head when I saw that one about two years back that was auctioned at $14k.
Another was sold for $450 or so, but the week I went to list mine, one failed
even to get a second bid at $10. You've got to look at a number of auctions of
a given item before you can reasonably expect to draw useful information from
the eBay.
Going by one auction is like judging the climate based on what you observe on a
1-day visit.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
Don't act the fool! By credible I mean looking at several completed
auctions including reading the descriptions and shipping terms and applying
a little common sense. If I am really curious I go so far as to check on
the bidders and seller feedback rating and prior transactions. Lots of good
information is available for those who really look.
BTW I said most credible, so whats your alternative to ebay as a price
reference?
Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source
of pricing or value
that I know of.
I find this comment to be INcredible.
Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is
"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream.
Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000
because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original
design team members"?
"...credible source of pricing..."
I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a
worthless pro/con debate about it.
2:22 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
BTW I said most credible, so whats your alternative to
ebay as a price
reference?
Meditation while under the effects of Mescaline.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
26 Oct
26 Oct
10:37 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
BTW I said
most credible, so whats your alternative to ebay as a price
reference?
Meditation while under the effects of Mescaline. 
25 Oct
25 Oct
9:14 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
At 11:39 AM 10/25/01, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
Hi Sellam, I think its agreed that only "completed" auctions would count
towards the valuation. Just like in the home appraisal market where only
"closing" prices count, not listing prices.
Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible
source of pricing or value
that I know of.
I find this comment to be INcredible.
Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is
"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream. Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for
close to $1,000
because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original
design team members"?
Which why Ebay is so great. If that were the only sale of a Macintosh then
one would foolishly get the impression that a Macintosh was worth $1000.
However, when you plot the moving average of many sales, you get a much
more credible number. (Haven't done that for Macs)
"...credible source of pricing..."
I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a
worthless pro/con debate about it.
We have seen the enemy and he is us :-)
--Chuck
2:20 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Chuck McManis wrote:
This would be true if it weren't for the fact that eBay doesn't keep their
auction data around for people to make these sorts of analyses.
Another reason why I hate them. They obviously aren't doing anything with
the data...why don't they let someone else do something with it? It's not
their data to begin with, in the same respect that they are not content
providers, therefore they don't own the content of each auction.
That's another thing that pisses me off about eBay, how they re-define
rules to suit their own greedy purposes.
Boy howdy!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Fine. How
about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000
because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original
design team members"?
Which why Ebay is so great. If that were the only sale of a Macintosh then
one would foolishly get the impression that a Macintosh was worth $1000.
However, when you plot the moving average of many sales, you get a much
more credible number. (Haven't done that for Macs) I'm sorry
that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a
worthless pro/con debate about it.
We have seen the enemy and he is us :-) 
24 Oct
24 Oct
4:44 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay
Sellam Ismail wrote:
This would be true if it weren't for the fact that eBay doesn't keep their
auction data around for people to make these sorts of analyses.
Auctions are around for something like 30 days. Any longer and the
prices would be irrelavant.
Another reason why I hate them. They obviously aren't doing anything with
the data...why don't they let someone else do something with it? It's not
their data to begin with, in the same respect that they are not content
providers, therefore they don't own the content of each auction.
Who cares? What is there even TO DO with the data? Track people buying
habbits?
That's another thing that pisses me off about
eBay, how they re-define
rules to suit their own greedy purposes.
They are a company.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
25 Oct
25 Oct
7:02 a.m.
New subject: Periodic rants on eBay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:09 AM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Periodic rants on eBay
Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value
that I know of. Last night, really the past week, I have been digging
deeply into the purchases I have made in the last few months, and I found a
really cool looking box, HP SureStore 12000e. 10 minutes on the HP site,
and I knew all about the buttons on the front, but not what the damn thing
WAS. 2 minutes on eBay and I knew I had a nice 48 GB DDS tape array storage
thing worth $175 or so, that had drivers for windows etc. that I could
download for free (and had the links to do so in the eBay ad).
Yes, I agree about ebay being a knowledge base as well as a place to sell.
I've learned a lot from browsing through the ads, and it's also a good place
to see pictures of items that I'm curious about. Sure, most of the photos
are terrible but if all you want to do is see what something looks like,
then it's helpful.
About pricing though, it gives you a general idea of what something is worth
on the open market but it's also very much a hit and miss kind of thing. For
example, a while back I saw an Apple 3.5 unidisk drive sell for about
$100.00. Suddenly, five more drives appear from various sellers who see that
they have a hot item, and in essence the market is then flooded. That causes
the price to fall on drives offered after that. So what is the value of one
of those drives? Also, the more an items is listed (like an Apple IIe) the
better the statistical data becomes. Some will say that the value of an item
is exactly what someone will pay for it at a particular time, and that's
true but you can also say that generally speaking, an item's approximate
value is what people will likely pay for it. An Altair will likely sell for
more than $1000 but how much more? If I try to sell an Apple II clone on
ebay, one day it will go for $30 and the next it might go for $70.00
depending on who sees it. What is it's approximate value? If I start the
auction a $1.00, the bidding might end at $100.00 but if I start it at
$30.00, the auction might end at $32.00.
I know, I'm rambling again but I've been thinking about ebay strategies
lately because I'm about to post a bunch of stuff there. Does anyone have
any useful selling tips based on their own experiences -aside from the
obvious (photos.)
6:50 p.m.
New subject: Periodic rants on eBay
I know, I'm rambling again but I've been
thinking about ebay strategies
lately because I'm about to post a bunch of stuff there. Does anyone have
any useful selling tips based on their own experiences -aside from the
obvious (photos.)
Know your product, what it is, what it does, and who needs it. Look at
other peoples ads, do what the ones that sell for the most do, pictures,
information, and time of auction.
Don't sell anything of real value until you have about 20 or 30 positive
feedback.
Keep your feedback positive, act like even ONE negative is a stake through
the heart, support your buyer and ASSUME nothing.
Ship promptly, and stay on top of email. Keep your buyer informed.
Forget reserve auctions. If an item is thinly traded, make the minimum bid
your minimum acceptable price.
USE BUY IT NOW, and fill in the stuff for instant purchase (shipping costs).
Make your terms clear, especially things like shipping internationally.
Place items in batches, unless you LIKE spending time in a post office.
BTW selling collectible items is an ENTIRELY different thing from selling
commodity items.
2:17 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Aside from an occasional spike here and there, I'm not seeing this price
inflation. I find that people wanting to sell their goods list them and people
willing to bid do so. The prices compare favorably (from the buyer's
standpoint) with what's found in the misc.forsale.xxxxxx newsgroups. I've sold
very little on eBay, but have bought quite a number of items, all at prices well
below "market," whatever that means. I've been frustrated a number of
times,
but that was because someone else wanted something more than I did. On
occasion, I've lost a bidding contest by only a dollar or two, but, often
enough, I've ended up in the situation wherein I have bid more than I wanted,
just to win, and still paid less than I'd have had to pay locally, including
taxes, etc.
You can complain, I guess, but it won't do any good. A nationally advertised
internet auction puts an item in front of about as broad a market as one could
want, and that will bring the highest prices, for sure, but it will not force
anyone to pay more than they want to. That's why I advise folks wanting to sell
something they don't know how to price to go to eBay and check the "completed
items" prices. The occasional spike will stand out, and the ridiculous
"asking"
prices will stand out in the form of no-bid auctions.
I have to say, I've not been treated badly, overall, on the internet auctions.
Of course, I don't generally bid before I know what something I can buy
elsewhere costs. I also don't bid until I know what similar items have
auctioned for in the past. I think the latter is the way to find out what
something is "worth" rather than trusting one's "gut" feeling.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: value of classic DEC machines?
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
But that's life. If I just paid 4k$ for a
machine that will make me
happy, should I be upset to hear that someone else picked one up for
free? It doesn't make the free machine worth 4k$ (maybe to someone),
but it also doesn't make the 4k$ machine worthless. We should not be
upset to see people put prices on these machines; though it might make
some reluctant to give them away for free...
Everything has some value to some person. What has bugged me, and this
community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in
pricing caused by eBay.
I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get $X
for it on eBay".
Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price
guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known
very soon.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
31 Oct
31 Oct
4:26 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the
words, "...but I can get
$X for it on eBay".
I heard that three years ago when I tried to haggle for a copy of David
Ahl's BASIC Games book at the Dayton Hamvention. They guy said "I can get
$50 for it..." I asked him if he could, what he was doing at Dayton and
why didn't he just sell it on eBay in the first place.
Needless to say, the negotiations did not proceed smoothly. ;-)
-ethan
__________________________________________________
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1 Nov
1 Nov
8:23 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
I'm sure
everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get
$X for it on eBay".
I heard that three years ago when I tried to haggle for a copy of David
Ahl's BASIC Games book at the Dayton Hamvention. They guy said "I can get
$50 for it..." I asked him if he could, what he was doing at Dayton and
why didn't he just sell it on eBay in the first place.
26 Oct
26 Oct
12:30 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
I have an 11/70 and it's a beautiful machine. I'd love to have another to
play with.
Peace... Sridhar
On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
but you couldn't probably give away an 11/70
Well, I for one would be glad to take an 11/70 away from someone. :-)
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
4:15 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
I have an 11/70 and it's a beautiful machine.
I'd love to have another to
play with.
Peace... Sridhar
For every dog, there is a flea...
I'll send the scrap truck over to your huge warehouse next time;)
I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size-
you'll find most 11/70 configs too physically large for
most home or basement collections (3 racks?). They're also
hungry on the power side, so I don't run my Datasystem 570-
a repackaged 11/70 in a vax780-like "wide bay" - even if it
lives in a warehouse...
At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap
the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants
to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more
interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;)
Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those
unwanted machines?
Cheers,
Heinz
7:15 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
For every dog, there is a flea...
I'll send the scrap truck over to your huge warehouse next time;)
I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size-
you'll find most 11/70 configs too physically large for
most home or basement collections (3 racks?). They're also
hungry on the power side, so I don't run my Datasystem 570-
a repackaged 11/70 in a vax780-like "wide bay" - even if it
lives in a warehouse...
When I was born (indeed, before I was born, when the machine was new), up
to a point in the late 80's, my father had an 11/70 in the house. He was
a FORTRAN programmer, being a chemist by training. It's on what I learned
to program. I can find homes for 11/70s, even if I can't keep them. And
if I *really* want to keep one, I will take out a storage locker for one.
I also have machines that use more power than an 11/70.
At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically
scrap
the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants
to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more
interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;)
Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those
unwanted machines?
This breaks my heart. I love these machines. They're fast. It sucks
that these people would rather scrap out a machine than let a collector
have it for free.
Peace... Sridhar
Cheers,
Heinz
27 Oct
27 Oct
3:10 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
My father had an 11/70 in the house.
...It's on what I learned to program
I have to know... When did you compile your first
program? Care to list a few milestones?
I can find homes for 11/70s, even if I can't keep
them.
List me as one home-to-be for a working '11 system.
Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a single rack?
It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a
machine
than let a collector have it for free.
I think I could pay scrap (.gt. free ) value.
John A.
5:05 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
List me as one home-to-be for a working '11
system.
Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a single rack?
When Eric Smith picked up a bunch of 11/70's we had this discussion. With
some third party stuff (like eliminating a memory box) you could probably
get it into 1 rack but with original DEC parts the smallest was two racks
and you probably didn't have a tape drive.
--Chuck
6:29 a.m.
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28 Oct
28 Oct
3:27 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Tony Duell wrote:
Trying to put large things above the CPU will reduce the airflow to the
CPU. After having someone kindly give me two H960 racks, I was able to
put my own 11/70 system into a three rack configuration. This
eliminates everything from the CPU cabinet except the CPU and two large
fans in the top of the same cabinet. My MK11 memory, RX02, and SA72
storage are in a second cabinet. My BA11 expansion shelf, with all the
I/O panels that go with it, are in a third cabinet. This is closer to
what DEC would have configured, is much nicer to work on, and has much
better air circulation through the cabinets. Even at that, I don't have
the back doors on the cabinets, mostly because of all the cables.
The CPU needs lots of unrestricted airflow, especially if you are not
running it in a very well air conditioned equipment room. I believe
that DEC would only allow certain types of equipment to be placed above
the CPU. Basically, things that are not very deep, and would not
restrict airflow.
The only way I could see reducing it to a single cabinet would be to use
a third party memory solution (one that fits in the CPU), and not extend
the UNIBUS outside the CPU cabinet. This reduces you to using only the
4 SPC slots in the CPU.
Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a
single rack?
The CPU is 1 BA11-F box IIRC, which along with PSUs and cooling space is
going to take up half the rack. You could probably fit one or two of the
memory boxes above it without impeding the airflow through the top CPU
fans too much.
So you could get the CPU and (some) memory into a single rack. If you can
make do with one memory box then you can get a disk drive in there as well.
But I would think 2 racks (one for CPU + memory, the other for
peripherals) are more practical. 2 racks would give you enough space for
a reasonable system.
29 Oct
29 Oct
9:33 a.m.
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11:02 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Tony Duell wrote:
My guess is that if you take an 11/70 CPU, leave one 10.5" bay empty
above the CPU, then put 2 memory boxes in the top 2 rack bays, the
machine will be fine. If you are worried, rig up some air deflectors and
a fan in the bay immediately above the CPU box.
Actually, I found removing the 861C power controller from under the CPU,
and getting rid of all the cables that were stuffed under it made the
biggest difference for exhausting heat from the CPU itself.
If you've got the space for 3 racks then, sure it's nice to have the
stuff spread out. But my experience is that empty rack bays attract
BA11-K expansion boxes, RK05/RL drives, and so on... You keep on finding
other things to add to the machine
Isn't that the point? Actually, my two RL02 drives are in the bottom of
the two TU81 tape drive cabinets that sit on either side of the 11/70.
That way I have more room to put future goodies in the H960 racks. :)
Yes, some rules have to be followed. Don't put an RK05 or a BA11-K
immediately above an BA11-F (11/45 or 11/70 CPU). It will overheat. But
other rules cna most certainly be broken with no problems.
I can also say that some of this depends on where you are. Since I am
in Florida, heat removal from any interior space can be a problem.
Making it easier to get airflow through the PDP-11 cabinets makes it
much easier to get heat out of the room. Even at that, A/C can find it
hard to keep up in the warmer months. This time of year is when I can
actually think of running the system for a period of time without it
getting too hot, or costing a fortune to cool. It already costs a
fortune just to run.
---
Doug Carman
pdp11(a)bellsouth.net
11:30 a.m.
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1:26 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Tony Duell wrote:
As I know all too well from my trip to Hampshire last July. Your summer
is nothing like our weather in July. Everyone in the UK could use a
nice old warm computer to take the chill off. :)
Well, a heat pump (an air conditioner that runs in reverse) does work a
little more efficiently than TTL logic for heating the house. My
biggest problem is coming up with a way to duct the heat from the 11/70
to the rest of the house. It still seems that I end up with the heat on
in the house, and the windows open in the room with the 11/70.
---
Doug Carman
pdp11(a)bellsouth.net
Making it easier to get airflow through the
PDP-11 cabinets makes it
much easier to get heat out of the room. Even at that, A/C can find it
Air Conditioners are not common in private houses in the UK. They do
exist, but I only know one person to have one.
hard to keep
up in the warmer months. This time of year is when I can
actually think of running the system for a period of time without it
getting too hot, or costing a fortune to cool. It already costs a
fortune just to run.
If you have electric heating anyway, then it shouldn't make much
difference to the overall electricity bill, surely...
2:04 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Well, a heat pump (an air conditioner that runs in
reverse) does work a
little more efficiently than TTL logic for heating the house. My
biggest problem is coming up with a way to duct the heat from the 11/70
to the rest of the house. It still seems that I end up with the heat on
in the house, and the windows open in the room with the 11/70.
I installed a window AC unit in my computer room. My wife was against it,
but after I installed it she said she wished she'd let me get it sooner.
No more turning the AC down to 66 degrees F in the summer and turning the
heat down in the winter.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/
30 Oct
30 Oct
8:26 a.m.
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26 Oct
26 Oct
8:04 p.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to
size
Wha?!?! <8-O
At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically
scrap the 70's
(since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants to pay for
them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more interesting stuff
as part of the deal (and scrap them later;)
WHAAA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those
unwanted
machines?
Well, I could provide a home to *several*! We need to divert some of
those machines to me. How easily could that be arranged?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
27 Oct
27 Oct
1:39 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
At 03:04 AM 10/27/01 -0500, you wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
I got a call from a guy in Milwaukee who left an 11/34
on the curb a few months ago, before he discovered
there were collectors online. He still has a few
old DEC tape drives he needs to unload. Hes going to send a
list and I'll forward it here.
- John
P.S. - Al Kossow - it was Mike Hanus.
I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s
due to size
Wha?!?! <8-O 
9:12 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
Heinz Wolter wrote:
At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap
the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants
to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more
interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;)
Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those
unwanted machines?
If any 11/70 shows up in colorado, I'll be more than happy to pick it up
...
cheers
31 Oct
31 Oct
4:20 p.m.
New subject: PDP-11/70s (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?)
--- emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> wrote:
Heinz Wolter wrote:
I already have a pair. What I'm looking for is an inexpensive toggle-
switch console or two - mine both have the RDM console. Boring.
I've mentioned them before; they were two of a former set of 5 RSTS/E
PDPs at Bordon, Inc. (you know, the guys that made milk and glue and
all that sort of stuff). The CPUs are in their own racks, with a
memory cabinet each, plus a wad of Fuji Eagles on SI9900 controllers.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap
the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants
to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more
interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;)
Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those
unwanted machines?
If any 11/70 shows up in colorado, I'll be more than happy to pick it up
... 
27 Oct
27 Oct
4:58 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
What about history? My book says that only 50
PDP-1's
were produced. Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped.
A good rule of thumb is that one or two precent of anything survives.
While it does not sound good for PDP-1s (the reached the "limit"), this
rule offers hope for others.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
24 Oct
24 Oct
8:38 a.m.
New subject: value of classic DEC machines?
...to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and
absolutely HAS to have
the first PDP-1 he comes across or else he'll die, no exceptions.
I can't think of any such collector that exists.
Think again! The fellow that sold me my KL sold one to
Paul Allen's organization for 30k$. Certainly he has more
pocketchange in one of his pockets, than we make in a year...
Perhaps you haven't heard of his computer museum - he's playing
Noah - but trying to get at least one of every DEC machine made..
(he has two KLs, to my knowledge, one was free)
There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen
paying big dollars for
not so rare machines...
The particular frenzy you are referring to bombed out with the stock
market. I think you misread the message, but I just wanted to
dispel the myths you
forwarded :)
No, I just wanted to add to the sillyness of a 2500$ Coco- want to buy mine
;)
One mans facts are another man's myths...
Regards,
heinz
8452
days inactive
8461
days old
48 comments
20 participants
participants (20)
-
acme_ent＠bellsouth.net -
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
dittman＠dittman.net -
edick＠idcomm.com -
emu＠ecubics.com -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
ernestls＠home.com -
fernande＠internet1.net -
foo＠siconic.com -
h.wolter＠sympatico.ca -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jss＠subatomix.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
msell＠ontimesupport.com -
pdp11＠bellsouth.net -
thompson＠mail.athenet.net -
vance＠ikickass.org