20 Mar
2007
20 Mar
'07
11:45 p.m.
On 3/20/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd
party disk controller with the bootstrap built in.
That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696,
and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all
have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were
much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI drives
are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but not
as much as for a large working MFM drive.
Another plus of a SCSI controller is that you might be able to use it
to boot a SCSI CD-ROM. I have that working with a Dilog SQ706A SCSI
controller and a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM in my 11/73.
But if you do have a working RQDX3 and working RD drives it's probably
still cheaper to get a board you can put a boot ROM on. That's an
exercise I haven't gone through myself, yet.
-Glen
21 Mar
21 Mar
5:58 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 20:45 -0700, Glen Slick wrote:
On 3/20/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at
aracnet.com> wrote:
I have one of these, and no (working) boot ROMs. So what I do is I have
the bootstrap programmed into one of the programmable function keys on
my VT520.
It works, and there's enough room for an RL02 bootstrap on another key
too.
Gordon
You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd
party disk controller with the bootstrap built in.
That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696,
and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all
have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were 
10:22 a.m.
You might want
to keep your eye out for a 3rd
party disk controller with the bootstrap built in.
That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696,
and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all
have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were
much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI drives
are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but not
as much as for a large working MFM drive. 
10:35 a.m.
Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF
for my KDJ11-AA and
some other stuff? I have a bunch of MicroVAX I and
II parts and a
BA23 chassis. Also a number of KDF11 CPU boards.
Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU
board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I
have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you
want.
-Ian
11:33 a.m.
On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and
is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, boot
ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you don't
"need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup).
What he's asking for is a KDJ11-B, a quad-height CPU with accessories
such as a console SLU, and boot ROMs. If he had a KDJ11-B, he'd
already be up and running.
-ethan
Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe
-BF
for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff?
Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU
board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I
have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you
want.
11:43 a.m.
Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board
is dual-height and
is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the
mini-computer world, boot
ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front
panel, you don't
"need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast
startup).
Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an
onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in
the middle for then?
Well, at least the PDP-11 can load bootstrap code from
ROM. On a Prime it is all handled through the VCP, and
bootstrap code has to be loaded from floppy. (slowly).
-Ian
12:22 p.m.
On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use
an
onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in
the middle for then?
The 40-pin socket? AFAIK, it's not for a boot ROM. Given that there
are 40-pin sockets on other Qbus CPUs for things like EIS, FIS, etc.,
it must be one of those. I don't have a KDF11A, so I've never worried
about extending the instruction set. Most of my Qbus PDP-11 work has
been with the KDF11 and older (11/03, 11/23...)
-ethan
12:24 p.m.
On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an
onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in
the middle for then?
The empty socket on a KDJ11-A is for the floating-point accelerator.
I think you need either a M7195 MXV11-B or a M8578 MRV11-D for a Q22
board on which you can install EPROMs. Earlier versions of those
boards are not 22-bit.
-Glen
12:52 p.m.
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:43, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
Without having one handy to look at, it's probably the FP accelerator
socket. Is it a 40-pin DIP socket?
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Dave has
nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board
is dual-height and
is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the
mini-computer world, boot
ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front
panel, you don't
"need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast
startup).
Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't use an
onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in
the middle for then? 
5:09 p.m.
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:43, Mr Ian Primus
wrote:
I won't be home to check the exact board model till late tomorrow,
but there is a half-wide M8192 CPU with a 40-pin DIP socket for the FPA.
The accelerator socket's disabled.
Doc
Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't
use an
onboard ROM on a KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in
the middle for then?
Without having one handy to look at, it's probably the FP accelerator
socket. Is it a 40-pin DIP socket? 
5:21 p.m.
I'm trading him a DLV11-J which should solve his problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:10 PM
To: General at mdrconsult.com; Discussion at mdrconsult.com
:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:43, Mr Ian Primus
wrote:
accelerator
Ah, OK. I wasn't aware that you couldn't
use an onboard ROM on a
KDJ11-A. What's that empty socket in the middle for then?
Without having one handy to look at, it's probably the FP socket. Is it a 40-pin DIP socket?
I won't be home to check the exact board model till late
tomorrow, but there is a half-wide M8192 CPU with a 40-pin
DIP socket for the FPA.
The accelerator socket's disabled.
Doc
12:56 p.m.
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:33, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at
yahoo.com> wrote:
Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height
and is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world,
boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you
don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup).
True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't have
some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for
those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which
had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on
some other board.
At least that's been my experience on the systems I've seen.
In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a QBUS system that didn't have a
boot or code rom in it, unless someone had pulled parts out of the
system already.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Either
that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF
for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff?
Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU
board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I
have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you
want.
2:30 p.m.
On 3/21/07, Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> wrote:
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 11:33, Ethan Dicks wrote:
In the specific case of Qbus systems, you are correct. I was
(apparently unclearly) describing the general nature of PDP-11s,
PDP-8s, etc., with regard to boot ROMs to distinguish them from the
microcomputers that most people have had experience with. Yes, early
S-100 micros had front panels and might or might have had boot ROMs,
but for all pre-6100-microprocessor PDP-8s, one could have a boot ROM,
or a front panel, or both. A similar arrangement exists for Unibus
PDP-11s (boot ROM, or a front panel, or both).
I don't know of any front panels for Qbus machines, so perhaps I could
have been clearer in my explanation.
-ethan
(yes, in the mini-computer world,
boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you
don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup).
True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't have
some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for
those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which
had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on
some other board.
2:31 p.m.
Either that or
a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF
for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff?
Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU
board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I
have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you
want. 
4:29 p.m.
Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA? I'm pretty sure the -BF will
boot, as well as the various MXV-11's (which would solve the console port
problem). Any flavor of DLV11 should work as a console.
Selection usually depends on individual needs and backplane space.
If you need any of these, feel free to contact me off list.
Paul Anderson
On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote:
True, but it's unlikely that any system with a KDJ11-A in it didn't
have
some sort of boot ROM; there wasn't any front-panel that I know of for
those machines. The -A version was typically used in OEM gear which
had a boot-rom (or just a rom with the system's runtime code in it) on
some other board.
The problem is, I got the KDJ11-A board by itself and not in a
system. I do have some MXV11-A modules but I guess they can't boot an
RD53 or ESDI drive. I think I can use one for a console port though.
I guess I'll have to do that because my CPU card doesn't have one of
those either. I believe I need to disable the onboard RAM though
because the RAM on the MXV11-A isn't Q22 compatible.
> Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF
> for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff?
Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU
board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I
have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you
want.
Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height
and is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world,
boot ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you
don't "need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). 
8:46 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 3/21/07, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
wrote:
It uses BBS7 as part of its addressing logic so will work correctly with
a J11.
You should do the EC0 to terminate BDAL18,19,20,21 The extra termination
resistors
are already on the BDV11 so it's only 4 jumpers.
I'm using a BDV11 in my Q-22 system.
joe lang
Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA?
I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It works fine with a
KDF11-A (11/23)
-ethan
9:26 p.m.
On 3/21/07, joe lang <jclang at notms.net> wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Good to know. I'll probably ECO my BDV-11s the next time I tear down
one of my Qbus systems.
-ethan
I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It
works fine with a
KDF11-A (11/23)
It uses BBS7 as part of its addressing logic so will work correctly with
a J11. You should do the EC0 to terminate BDAL18,19,20,21 The
extra termination resistors are already on the BDV11 so it's only 4 jumpers.
I'm using a BDV11 in my Q-22 system. 
8:51 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 3/21/07, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
wrote:
(A KDF11 is 22-bit, if it has the MMU, except for Rev.A KDF11-A.)
Everything on a BDV11 is addressed as part of the I/O page, so the
question of whether it's 16/18/22-bit addressing is irrelevant.
However, the original version only had termination for BDAL0...17,
although there's an FCO to connect the traces for the extra 4 bits.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
Will the BDV11 (M8012) work with the KDJ11-AA?
I think the BDV-11 is 18-bit-addressing only. It works fine with a
KDF11-A (11/23)
11:35 a.m.
Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe
-BF
for my KDJ11-AA and
some other stuff? I have a bunch of MicroVAX I and
II parts and a
BA23 chassis. Also a number of KDF11 CPU boards.
Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU
board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I
have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you
want.
12:02 p.m.
You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd
party disk controller with the bootstrap built in.
That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog
DQ696,
and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all
have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were
much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI
drives
are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but
not
as much as for a large working MFM drive.
12:30 p.m.
On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote:
Okay, I just opened up another box (a MVII in a BA123)
and found that
it contains a SCD-RQD11-EC controller. I believe this is an ESDI
controller with onboard boot ROM. This ought to work but since it
came out of a MicroVAX, I'm assuming that the boot ROM will only work
on a VAX. Is that correct? Or is there both PDP-11 and VAX code in
the ROM? Also, I can't find a manual for this board. Manx doesnt have
it and Bitsavers has a manual for the RQD11-ECPlus but that doesn't
seem to match the board layout of my board so I can't use it to
determine the switch settings. Anyone have documentation on this board?
Ok, now you're in luck. The SCD-RQD11-EC will work with the KDJ11-A
and your Maxtor EXT 4380 ESDI drive.
I couldn't find the manual either, but extrapolated enough out of the
RQD11-ECPlus manual to figure out how to configure it. The onboard
"WOMBAT" utilities will let you format the drive and boot the drive,
and will run on the PDP-11. The controller also has cache on board,
maybe 512MB, I forget without checking.
I have some notes on the switch settings to enable the ROM and set the
addresses. I'll dig those out tonight.
-Glen
12:43 p.m.
On 3/21/07, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote:
Okay, I just opened up another box (a MVII in a BA123)
and found that
it contains a SCD-RQD11-EC controller. I believe this is an ESDI
controller with onboard boot ROM. This ought to work but since it
came out of a MicroVAX, I'm assuming that the boot ROM will only work
on a VAX. Is that correct? Or is there both PDP-11 and VAX code in
the ROM?
Lacking documentation, I can speculate that it would be unlikely to be
able to boot this card off of either a VAX or PDP-11 without some
change, either a jumper to enable which processor's boot code is
presented to the bus, or a different ROM entirely.
You _might_ be able to use this card just to hold a copy of a PDP-11
boot ROM, but if you want to stuff it into the same box as an RQDX3
(and boot from the RQDX3), you'll need to restrap the CSR on the
SCD-RQD11 to something other than the primary address.
If you wanted to test the theory, stick this card into the BA23 with
your KDJ11-A and use ODT to read out the default boot address (1730000
/ 7730000 or something like that, off the top of my head). If you see
random octal numbers that look like code, you are probably reading the
ROM. Try pulling the ROM from the SCD-RQD11 and repeating the test.
If you get some sort of uniform memory garbage (all 00s, all 177777s,
etc.), you should have a reasonable expectation that you are reading
that ROM. Replace it with one that has the PDP-11 MSCP bootstrap at
the front, and you should be in business. I think, though, that you
said you didn't have a console SLU, so that will make ODT tests
difficult.
Also, what do I have to watch out for when using stuff
that
originally came from a MicroVAX to build a PDP-11 system? The BA23
chassis that I'm using started out life as a MicroVAX-I and many of
the boards came from VAXen.
Hmm... PMI memory boards are not (to the best of my knowledge)
compatible between MicroVAXen and PDP-11s, but you don't have a
PMI-capable CPU anyway. The disks and serial cards and network cards,
etc., should all be compatible. Where it really comes into play is at
the OS level - there are probably lots of cards found in VAXen that
there wouldn't be a RSTS or RT-11 driver for, for example. Not that
you need synchronous serial comms, but we used to ship RSTS drivers
_and_ VMS drivers for our Qbus COMBOARD, but not everyone did that. I
am not aware of any MSCP limitations between the platforms, so you
should be OK with any semi-modern disk controller you turn up. Serial
peripherals are the ones most likely to have spotty support between
VAX and PDP-11, in my estimation.
The expected base configurations may be different (PDP-11 + DLV11 +
disk... vs uVAX + DZQ + disk...) may be different, but except for
known serial issues (no support for DLV11J under VMS, console SLU
always provided on uVAX, optional on PDP-11 CPU board, etc.), the Qbus
is quite indifferent to the nature of the CPU in the first slot.
I hope this has been illuminating.
-ethan
6327
days inactive
6328
days old
23 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
dbetz＠xlisper.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fireflyst＠earthlink.net -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
jclang＠notms.net -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
useddec＠gmail.com