24 Mar
2018
24 Mar
'18
10:29 p.m.
Picture here: https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg
Does anybody know how to talk to this thing?
I've got one of these devices but I don't have a reference for the
protocol. It's a serial device so it's probably not terribly complicated,
but trying to figure it out by throwing random bytes at it might take a few
years. SA23-2780-01 - "Option Instructions IBM 6094 010 Dials for AIX"
should have the description of the protocol, but I can't find this document
anywhere.
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.files…
gives some hints on how it is programmed - in particular it alludes to
"setting granularity" (sensitivity) which would be in addition to reading
the dials. Somebody with access to an AIX box and that "special file"
might be able to dig up the commands.
I know IBM has professional archivists so I can try them for the document
referenced above if I can't find it other ways. And I could probably find
the micro-controller inside, hope the ROM is readable, and try to
disassemble that, but that would be a last ditch effort.
Regards,
Mike
25 Mar
25 Mar
7:11 a.m.
On Mar 24, 2018, at 22:29, Michael Brutman via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Picture here: https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg <https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg>
Neat! I haven't seen one of those since 1987, when I briefly played with a workstation
that had one of those in an unguarded computer room in college. It was running some sort
of CAD demo in which you could rotate, translate, and scale a wireframe model with the
dials. I seem to recall that it was propped up diagonally on some sort of stand, but I
don't remember if that was a standard feature vs. something cobbled together locally.
Good luck learning how to talk to it. I can think of a number of different applications in
which a physical interface like that might be nice.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:49 a.m.
On Sunday (03/25/2018 at 07:11AM -0700), Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial boxes?? I have an SGI
one but don't know anything about the IBM ones. They were built by
Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box
http://yehar.com/blog/?p=3471
https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
On Mar 24, 2018, at 22:29, Michael Brutman via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Picture here: https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg <https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg>
Neat! I haven't seen one of those since 1987, when I briefly played with a
workstation that had one of those in an unguarded computer room in college. It was running
some sort of CAD demo in which you could rotate, translate, and scale a wireframe model
with the dials. I seem to recall that it was propped up diagonally on some sort of stand,
but I don't remember if that was a standard feature vs. something cobbled together
locally.
Good luck learning how to talk to it. I can think of a number of different applications
in which a physical interface like that might be nice. 
9:01 a.m.
On 03/25/2018 09:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial
boxes?? I have an SGI
one but don't know anything about the IBM ones. They were built by
Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box
It might be worth updating the Wikipedia article to reflect IBM's dial
box, including a picture.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
9:49 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial
boxes?? I have an SGI
one but don't know anything about the IBM ones. They were built by
Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...
I have seen the same dial box, as well as the "Button Box" and
possibly the CAD puck with the crosshairs, for HP and, IIRC, Sun
systems. It's a fair bet they're all based on the same models.
"Somewhere" in my overwhelming stacks of IBM docs, I have some sort of
guide to I/O devices with pics of each. I don't believe I've ever
seen a protocol description in them, unfortunately.
j
10:14 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Jason T via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I have an HP branded dial box, an A4362A. It looks identical front and
back to the photos of the SGI DLS80-1022 on Wikipedia. I have the
stand for it, but seem to be missing the two brackets that screw on to
the back of the case to hold the stand in place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box#/media/File:SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_f…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box#/media/File:SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_b…
Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI
dial boxes?? I have an SGI
one but don't know anything about the IBM ones. They were built by
Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...
I have seen the same dial box, as well as the "Button Box" and
possibly the CAD puck with the crosshairs, for HP and, IIRC, Sun
systems. It's a fair bet they're all based on the same models.
10:28 a.m.
On 3/25/18 8:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
a friend of mine made a MIDI controller out of a E&S dial box, which also has
alphanumeric LEDs over each dial.
the box looks like the one on the right here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/E%26S_Digistar%27s_part…
10:31 a.m.
and if anyone cares, I just listed three SGI IRIS dial boxes on ebay.
they are just rotary encoders, the smarts were in the button box, which had a 68008 in
it.
On 3/25/18 10:28 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 3/25/18 8:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
a friend of mine made a MIDI controller out of a E&S dial box, which also has
alphanumeric LEDs over each dial.
the box looks like the one on the right here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/E%26S_Digistar%27s_part…
12:48 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
and if anyone cares, I just listed three SGI IRIS dial
boxes on ebay.
they are just rotary encoders, the smarts were in the button box, which had a 68008 in
it.
I went noodling around eBay and found a couple of types - one looked
like your auction with what you describe - 8 rotary encoders just
piped directly out to what appears to be a DB25 on the back that
clearly need an external box with smarts. There's also another
variety with two vendors/case styles that appear to take serial and
+5V.
SN-921 (2.1mm barrel jack for +5V)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_fron…
DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 (+5V over DE9 serial cable - has
special Y-cable for power injection)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_…
I've been playing with the LPFK for years and I've been interested in
the dialboxes ever since I saw an early one on a VAXstation 8000 on
the show floor at DECUS. I decided to pick up one each of the DLS80
and SN-921. Should get to me in a week or so.
I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand. In the
meantime, I'm finding some of the common links to resources are now
dead. I did find these on the Internet Archive:
eventio.py (quite similar to dialbox.py)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070526101234/http://www.ysbl.york.ac.uk/~emsl…
Configure_Dials_for_OS_X.pdf (from May 2005, mentions OS X 10.3. Has
nice pics of the cables)
https://web.archive.org/web/20060518153503/http://sbgrid.org/downloads/Conf…
SGI Dialbox to O2/Octane/etc
https://web.archive.org/web/20071011031646/http://www.meadow.net/pinouts.ht…
I have worked with a number of devices that are powered by +5V via
their DE9. Routinely, that's done by not connecting Pin 9 (RI) from
the host and injecting +5V into the device on its Pin 9. I will be
checking my DLS80 for that once it arrives. I've made my own Y-cables
from scratch, and I found a brand of USB Serial adapter
in a large
2-piece plastic shell and modded those to inject USB +5V over DE9 Pin
9 to keep the cabling simpler. Both methods work.
-ethan
3:09 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
I went noodling around eBay and found a couple of
types
SN-921 (2.1mm barrel jack for +5V)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_fron…
DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 (+5V over DE9 serial cable - has
special Y-cable for power injection)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_…
I have worked with a number of devices that are powered by +5V via
their DE9. Routinely, that's done by not connecting Pin 9 (RI) from
the host and injecting +5V into the device on its Pin 9...
Not even close...
http://yehar.com/blog/?p=3471
The (Seiko?) SN-921 can apparently be powered via DE9 or the 2.1mm
jack next to it...
1. GND
2. SERIAL OUTPUT (?9 V)
3. SERIAL INPUT
4. POWER IN +5 V
5. POWER IN +5 V
6. NC
7. NC
8. GND
9. NC
The Danaher Controls DLS80-1022 has a DIN-5 at the end of its Y-cable
for input power. It's +5V and +/-12V (because it does not generate
serial voltages internally), I now gather...
1. POWER IN +12 V
2. NC
3. POWER IN +5 V
4. GND
5. SERIAL OUTPUT (?12 V)
6. NC
7. SERIAL INPUT
8. NC
9. POWER IN -12 V
Easy enough to feed, but good to know it's got an odd pin/power arrangement.
Now I'm really looking forward to unboxing these next month!
-ethan
28 Mar
28 Mar
7:23 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
Now I'm really looking forward to unboxing these
next month!
My dialboxes showed up today. The Seiko unit was advertised as having
a PS/2 adapter. They were mistaken. It's a DE9-MiniDIN8 adapter,
presumably for newer SGI or Sun machines. I'll have to check the
pinout. It also came with an external PSU so I don't need to make a
power-and-serial cable. The Danaher Controls DLS80-1022 did not come
with the DE9-DIN5 power-and-serial cable so I'll have to make one of
those.
-ethan
7:47 p.m.
On 2018-03-28 11:23 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks
<ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
IBM Dials used a connector like that it has the serial in and out and
+5V power on the connector.? You can find the pinout in the old
"Adapters Devices and Cabling Information for Microchannel Systems"?? I
have seen this manual on the web, back in the microchannel days there
was an adapter with 2 mini-din connectors on it for devices like this
the adapter had 2 async adapter chips and fuses for the +5V power.? I
seem to remember that the adapter was called "Graphics Device Adapter"??
Most of these IBM devices like dials, LPHK (Lighted PF Keys) and tablet
date back to the IBM 5080 graphics workstations that where initially
driven by mainframes but where later adapted to run off first RT system
and then later RS/6000, but where also used on RS/6000 with with
internal graphics adapters to support CAD programs like Catia.
Paul.
Now I'm really looking forward to unboxing
these next month!
My dialboxes showed up today. The Seiko unit was advertised as
having
a PS/2 adapter. They were mistaken. It's a DE9-MiniDIN8 adapter,
presumably for newer SGI or Sun machines. I'll have to check the
pinout. It also came with an external PSU so I don't need to make a
power-and-serial cable. The Danaher Controls DLS80-1022 did not come
with the DE9-DIN5 power-and-serial cable so I'll have to make one of
those.
-ethan
2460
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11 comments
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
cctalk＠gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net -
chrise＠pobox.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
mbbrutman＠brutman.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
phb.hfx＠gmail.com -
silent700＠gmail.com