18 Sep
2014
18 Sep
'14
10:50 a.m.
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Subject: Re: "Smartcom II" package available
FYI , while not to disagree with the conclusion that this package is on
5.25 media,
there WERE MS-DOS machines that came with 8 inch floppies (as the only
floppies)
I have one of these : http://oldcomputers.net/nec-apc.html (which instead
of APC it
is lovingly refereed to as the "hernia-ator" since it's ridiculously
heavy.... :-) )
So, while I'm not sure there was Smartcom ever for this system, having it
on 8 inch
floppies would be the way to get it loaded...
Earl
From: Fred Cisin
The fact that it was ... in a package of similar
size does NOT mean
that it contains 8" disks.
Argh! I looked at the package for like 12 msec, hefted it for 29 msec to
see
what kind of noise it made / how the internal mass felt, and _guessed_,
based
on 17 nsec of thinking about it, that 'I suspect ... 8" floppies'.
Had I stopped to think, I probably would have come to the same conclusion:
for original PC; original PC only had 5.25 inch floppies (which I had to
look
up, I couldn't remember off the top of my head - my first was a KayPro AT)
--> probably 5.25" media inside - but I didn't, I wasn't that interested,
I
just wanted to find a good home for it!
(And no doubt the seller made the same mistake, which was why it was in
with
a bunch of 8" floppies...)
18 Sep
18 Sep
11:55 a.m.
Earl,
That is pretty cool. Did the NEC system run an 8" based MS-DOS? Or was it a different
variety of DOS (or straight CP/M)? I have heard rumors of MS-DOS natively available on
8" disks but I have never seen one. If it is MS-DOS how compatible is it with MS-DOS
versions of the same vintage? Thanks.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
Of Earl Baugh
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:50 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: "Smartcom II" package available
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Subject: Re: "Smartcom II" package available
FYI , while not to disagree with the conclusion that this package is on
5.25 media,
there WERE MS-DOS machines that came with 8 inch floppies (as the only
floppies)
I have one of these : http://oldcomputers.net/nec-apc.html (which instead of APC it is
lovingly refereed to as the "hernia-ator" since it's ridiculously heavy....
:-) )
So, while I'm not sure there was Smartcom ever for this system, having it on 8 inch
floppies would be the way to get it loaded...
Earl
From: Fred Cisin
The fact that it was ... in a package of similar
size does NOT mean
that it contains 8" disks.
Argh! I looked at the package for like 12 msec, hefted it for 29 msec
to see what kind of noise it made / how the internal mass felt, and
_guessed_, based on 17 nsec of thinking about it, that 'I suspect ...
8" floppies'.
Had I stopped to think, I probably would have come to the same conclusion:
for original PC; original PC only had 5.25 inch floppies (which I had
to look up, I couldn't remember off the top of my head - my first was
a KayPro AT)
--> probably 5.25" media inside - but I didn't, I wasn't that
--> interested, I
just wanted to find a good home for it!
(And no doubt the seller made the same mistake, which was why it was
in with a bunch of 8" floppies...)
1:49 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
Earl,
That is pretty cool. Did the NEC system run an 8" based MS-DOS? Or was
it a different variety of DOS (or straight CP/M)? I have heard rumors of
MS-DOS natively available on 8" disks but I have never seen one. If it
is MS-DOS how compatible is it with MS-DOS versions of the same vintage?
Yes, NEC had 8" MS-DOS. But, when they came out with "high density"
5.25"
and 3.5", they made THOSE formats the same as their 8"! (and therefore
mutually incompatible with the "standard" (PC-DOS) versions of those
formats. That requires a 3.5" drive capable of 360 RPM, or some games
with the data transfer rate.
In the earliest days, MS-DOS 1.0 was briefly available through Lifeboat
on8" as "SB86-DOS"? (based partially on QDOS).
MS-DOS versions are generally very similar to MS-DOS of equivalent
versions, but NOT mimicing the PC-DOS assumptions of I/O locations,
often almost identical to PC-DOS, other than FORMAT, MODE, etc.
MS-DOS 5.00 was the first version of MS-DOS that was sold as a retail
product, without an explicit requirement that it be sold accompanying a
computer (said requirement was oft violated with a wink-wink)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
4 p.m.
Fred,
So would a program written for Microsoft/IBM (just to be clear) DOS work on
the 8" DOS distributions? I.E. was the only difference the medium of
distribution (a la 3.5" vs. 5.25")? I know DOS had support for 8" drives
through 6.22 (see MS KB 75131). The reason I ask is because then one could
theoretically use DOS based imagers/zip utilities/etc. for copying 8" disks
if you have a system like the NEC one (I assume it is PC compatible since it
runs MS-DOS). I haven't ever heard of anyone doing this so I am sure I am
missing something. The other option would be some of the turn key systems
you alluded to (i.e. ISA controller card with external drives) but finding
one now would be very hard to do. Everything else I've read about
copying/imaging 8" disks make it sound rather complicated.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 1:50 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: "Smartcom II" package available
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
Earl,
That is pretty cool. Did the NEC system run an 8" based MS-DOS? Or was
it a different variety of DOS (or straight CP/M)? I have heard rumors
of MS-DOS natively available on 8" disks but I have never seen one. If
it is MS-DOS how compatible is it with MS-DOS versions of the same
vintage?
Yes, NEC had 8" MS-DOS. But, when they came out with "high density"
5.25"
and 3.5", they made THOSE formats the same as their 8"! (and therefore
mutually incompatible with the "standard" (PC-DOS) versions of those
formats. That requires a 3.5" drive capable of 360 RPM, or some games with
the data transfer rate.
In the earliest days, MS-DOS 1.0 was briefly available through Lifeboat on8"
as "SB86-DOS"? (based partially on QDOS).
MS-DOS versions are generally very similar to MS-DOS of equivalent versions,
but NOT mimicing the PC-DOS assumptions of I/O locations, often almost
identical to PC-DOS, other than FORMAT, MODE, etc.
MS-DOS 5.00 was the first version of MS-DOS that was sold as a retail
product, without an explicit requirement that it be sold accompanying a
computer (said requirement was oft violated with a wink-wink)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5:15 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
Fred,
So would a program written for Microsoft/IBM (just to be clear) DOS work on
the 8" DOS distributions? I.E. was the only difference the medium of
distribution (a la 3.5" vs. 5.25")?
IFF it were written to be fully MS-DOS compatible, then it should work on
just about anything running MS-DOS.
BUT, few things were. Programs written for PC&Compatibles generally
assumed that other things besides the DOS were the same. For example,
MS-DOS can write a character to the current cursor position. BUT, in
order to get more speed, many/most programs shoved the characters into the
screen memory, instead; that prevented them from running on anything with
different video hardware.
I know DOS had support for 8" drives
through 6.22 (see MS KB 75131). The reason I ask is because then one could
theoretically use DOS based imagers/zip utilities/etc. for copying 8" disks
Depends on what you mean by "imagers". Programs that deal with disks with
other sector sizes are going to bypass DOS and talk to the BIOS, or talk
directly to the FDC hardware.
if you have a system like the NEC one (I assume it is
PC compatible since it
runs MS-DOS).
No, that makes it MS-DOS compatible, NOT PC compatible. "PC compatible"
is a subset of "MS-DOS compatible" that also has the same video, floppy,
etc. hardware.
I haven't ever heard of anyone doing this so I am
sure I am
missing something. The other option would be some of the turn key systems
you alluded to (i.e. ISA controller card with external drives) but finding
one now would be very hard to do. Everything else I've read about
copying/imaging 8" disks make it sound rather complicated.
It's not necessarily THAT complicated. Just by cabling an external drive
to an ordinary PC's 1.2M compatible controller will provide the hardware
necessary to be able to deal with most MFM ("double density") 8" disks.
Single density adds some more fun and games.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
20 Sep
20 Sep
12:24 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Fred,
So if I understand what you are saying as long as my interest is in copying
IBM 8" disks (which it is: IBM 5322 and 5120 disks) I can connect a 8" drive
to the standard IBM AT disk controller and be able to read/write. I have a
number of 51TD drives around so could I use them with something like the
FDADAP floppy disk adapter to connect the drive to a 5170 (either to the std
controller or CompatiCard II/IV using the external connector) and
image/write disks using something like Dave Dunfield's Disk Imager? That
would be relatively straight forward if I am following you. Thanks for any
help.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 5:16 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: "Smartcom II" package available
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
I know DOS had support for 8" drives
through 6.22 (see MS KB 75131). The reason I ask is because then one
could theoretically use DOS based imagers/zip utilities/etc. for
copying 8" disks
Depends on what you mean by "imagers". Programs that deal with disks with
other sector sizes are going to bypass DOS and talk to the BIOS, or talk
directly to the FDC hardware.
I haven't ever heard of anyone doing this so I am
sure I am missing
something. The other option would be some of the turn key systems you
alluded to (i.e. ISA controller card with external drives) but finding
one now would be very hard to do. Everything else I've read about
copying/imaging 8" disks make it sound rather complicated.
It's not necessarily THAT complicated. Just by cabling an external drive to
an ordinary PC's 1.2M compatible controller will provide the hardware
necessary to be able to deal with most MFM ("double density") 8" disks.
Single density adds some more fun and games.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:58 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
So if I understand what you are saying as long as my
interest is in copying
IBM 8" disks (which it is: IBM 5322 and 5120 disks) I can connect a 8" drive
to the standard IBM AT disk controller and be able to read/write. I have a
number of 51TD drives around so could I use them with something like the
FDADAP floppy disk adapter to connect the drive to a 5170 (either to the std
controller or CompatiCard II/IV using the external connector) and
image/write disks using something like Dave Dunfield's Disk Imager? That
would be relatively straight forward if I am following you. Thanks for any
help.
A lot will depend on what you want to do.
Just cabling the drive to the PC might be enough to let you use the drive
as DSDD (1.2M) disk. But, you still might run into a few minor problems,
such as some BIOSes that choke on it if it only has 77 tracks instead of
80, or can't switch into a "360K" mode, etc.
Some BIOSes can be an extreme pain in the ass.
If you are trying to transfer files, then you need software that
understands any differences in disk format. The NEC 8" disk format is not
the same as what PC-DOS (or non-NEC MS-DOS) is going to want to do with
the 8" disk. Uniform, 22Disk, XenoCopy all have menus from which you need
to select which disk format you are trying to work with, and with NEC 8"
selected, should let you copy files to and from those "alien" disks.
If you copy files over, you still might not be totally out of the woods;
Wordstar files can be loaded into early versions of Microsoft Weird, but
not into current ones. Visicalc files can be loaded into early versions
of Microsofr Excess, but not into current ones. Electric Pencil files, .
. .
If you use the system to copy programs, then you get to find out whether
the program is expecting the same or different hardware than you have.
If you are trying to make images of the disk in the form of copying all of
the sectors into an archive, but NOT try to separate files, then you need
software that can be configured for density, sectors per track, bytes per
sector, and number of tracks. Such as ImageDisk, or Teledisk.
So, make or buy a cable to connect an 8" drive to your PC.
(BTW, be aware that 8" drives can be SS, DS, or SS/DS - there have even
been 8" drives that do DS, but can't do SS (the index hole is in a
different position)).
In addition, I would take a 1.2M drive and connect it to the NEC, and try
to find a 360RPM 3.5" drive for the NEC.
To me, the 1.2M 5.25" is the easiest for getting files back and forth, but
any of the three can be done.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:53 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
I know that CP/M-86 existed for the Displaywriter, but did MS-DOS?
--Chuck
5:21 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Chuck,
Do you still have the pin out for the IBM 51TD drive? According to the
CCTalk archives you had been looking for it and seem to have found it off
list. I'd love a copy of the pin outs if you have it and/or any advice on
how to wire the 36 pin connector to a 34 pin FDD (or better yet the 37 pin
external dsub) connector. This is the 8" drive I have access to and was used
in the 5120, 5322, and the 6580 and System/36 AFAIK. It would be great if I
can get PC HW (i.e. the std. IBM controller card or the CompatiCard) to
drive it. Thanks.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 3:54 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
I know that CP/M-86 existed for the Displaywriter, but did MS-DOS?
--Chuck
7:04 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Hi Ali,
Yup, you can find it on page 007 here: (It's in the IBM 5280 maintenance
manual):
https://ia601606.us.archive.org/20/items/bitsavers_ibm528xceSeDriveMIMMar80…
Also on bitsavers.
--Chuck
On 09/20/2014 05:21 PM, Ali wrote:
Chuck,
Do you still have the pin out for the IBM 51TD drive? According to the
CCTalk archives you had been looking for it and seem to have found it off
list. I'd love a copy of the pin outs if you have it and/or any advice on
how to wire the 36 pin connector to a 34 pin FDD (or better yet the 37 pin
external dsub) connector. This is the 8" drive I have access to and was used
in the 5120, 5322, and the 6580 and System/36 AFAIK. It would be great if I
can get PC HW (i.e. the std. IBM controller card or the CompatiCard) to
drive it. Thanks.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 3:54 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
I know that CP/M-86 existed for the Displaywriter, but did MS-DOS?
--Chuck
21 Sep
21 Sep
2:45 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
Do you still have the pin out for the IBM 51TD drive?
According to the
CCTalk archives you had been looking for it and seem to have found it off
list. I'd love a copy of the pin outs if you have it and/or any advice on
how to wire the 36 pin connector to a 34 pin FDD (or better yet the 37 pin
external dsub) connector. This is the 8" drive I have access to and was used
in the 5120, 5322, and the 6580 and System/36 AFAIK. It would be great if I
can get PC HW (i.e. the std. IBM controller card or the CompatiCard) to
drive it. Thanks.
Forget it, that won't work:
1. You would need additional circuitry to control the drive. As an
example, the IBM disk drive needs the four stepper motor phases for head
movement whereas the Shugart interface only provides a step pulse and
direction signal. The IBM drive are much "dumber" than Shugart drives.
2. To read IBM floppies with a PC you ultimatively need a controller that
supports FM and MFM. Along with that you need either a tool that
understand the IBM disk structure or something like ImageDisk if you only
want to image the floppies.
Christian
8:27 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 02:45 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
Forget it, that won't work:
1. You would need additional circuitry to control the drive. As an
example, the IBM disk drive needs the four stepper motor phases for head
movement whereas the Shugart interface only provides a step pulse and
direction signal. The IBM drive are much "dumber" than Shugart drives.
2. To read IBM floppies with a PC you ultimatively need a controller
that supports FM and MFM. Along with that you need either a tool that
understand the IBM disk structure or something like ImageDisk if you
only want to image the floppies.
I think that Ali knows bout the required FM capability (actually many
late PCs with floppy controllers can handle that, as they tend to use
the SMSC SuperIO chip for floppy access. Intel chips are still broken,
however).
As for the rest, it's not something that's out of possibility for
someone with an Arduino to handle the head motion. So not truly awful.
--Chuck
9:29 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
It seems to me that getting an 8" drive with a Shugart interface would make things a
lot easier for what Ali wants to do. After that, add an FDADAP, and either a PC with a
suitable FDC for use with ImageDisk, or one of the dedicated disk imaging interfaces such
as KryoFlux or Supercard Pro.
I have a KryoFlux that I can hook up to a Tandon TM848E drive. Maybe Ali and I should meet
at an SBUX some weekend for a disk imaging party? :) Keir Fraser (author of
https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities ) has been pretty responsive about adding support
for new disk formats, so there's a good chance of being able to convert KryoFlux
images into something more portable like ImageDisk files and/or being able to write out
the images... if Disk Utilities can't already do that for the System/23 floppies, Keir
may be willing and able to add the support to do so.
I still don't have any floppies at all for my System/23, and I'd really like to
get my hands on the software I'd need to format floppies for it. So, if I can
contribute towards making an image of one of those floppies show up online, I'd like
to help! Once I can format blank disks for use with my System/23, I'll also image them
so that blank data disks can then be formatted with a KryoFlux, ImageDisk, etc.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
11:31 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 09:29 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I have a KryoFlux that I can hook up to a Tandon
TM848E drive. Maybe
Ali and I should meet at an SBUX some weekend for a disk imaging
party? :) Keir Fraser (author of
https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities ) has been pretty responsive
about adding support for new disk formats, so there's a good chance
of being able to convert KryoFlux images into something more portable
like ImageDisk files and/or being able to write out the images... if
Disk Utilities can't already do that for the System/23 floppies, Keir
may be willing and able to add the support to do so.
I don't understand the need for special hardware. Any PC capable of
reading/writing FM and MFM should handle it. IBM 8" floppies in
particular are pretty plain-Jane. A PC with a qualifying FDC in it
should work with an 8" drive with no problems. The first track will
usually have 26x128 FM-encoded sectors with DDMs, the remainder will
either be FM or MFM with nothing special.
Dave Dunfield's IMD should work just fine.
--Chuck
1 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 11:31 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I don't understand the need for special hardware.
Any PC capable of reading/writing FM and MFM should handle it.
That makes sense if you take it for granted that PCs with suitable floppy controllers are
sitting around on the shelf waiting to be used, which is probably true for many or even
most folks here. Some of us don't generally use PCs, though, and have spent most of
our lives using mostly non-PC hardware. For me, a PC on which to run ImageDisk is no less
special than a KryoFlux or Supercard Pro board, since I need to buy all of the hardware to
build it anyway.
I'm in the process of building up an old 386 box that I bought on eBay for use with
ImageDisk; I'm not sure why I'm bothering other than for the fun of it, since once
I'm done it'll be a lot less convenient for me to use it than my KryoFlux. The
KryoFlux plugs into my daily-use computer (a MacBook Air), but I'll need to go through
extra contortions to get files on and off of the 386 box. I suppose it'll come in
handy for helping out with debugging of the very young ImageDisk file format support in
Keir's Disk Utilities software, and it'll also provide a gold standard for
compatibility testing with the ImageDisk file manipulation code I'm presently writing
in Python.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
1:20 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'll need to go through extra contortions to get
files on and off of the 386 box.
You just need some network attached storage. I was sneakernetting things for a while with
my 5150, but I?ve now got a boot floppy setup with mtcp tools so that I can get to ftp
& telnet. What a difference that has made, being able to move files back & forth
without getting up. Sometimes I?ll ftp a file up to the server, edit it with emacs, and
pull it back down just because I don?t have a nice editor on the PC. I?m still wondering
if there?s a way to boot from a floppy and map a share to a drive letter on the PC. There
seems to be a lot of stuff involved to make that work.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
2:10 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Chris,
Actually, setting up MS LANMAN or client is pretty straight forward. I use
them on my DOS systems to map a disk drive to my vintage systems. Check out
MS KB Q122297 "Comparison of MS-DOS Clients for Windows NT Version 3.5" for
system requirements between the two clients.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chris Osborn
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 1:21 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'll need to go through extra contortions to get
files on and off of the
386 box.
You just need some network attached storage. I was sneakernetting things for
a while with my 5150, but I've now got a boot floppy setup with mtcp tools
so that I can get to ftp & telnet. What a difference that has made, being
able to move files back & forth without getting up. Sometimes I'll ftp a
file up to the server, edit it with emacs, and pull it back down just
because I don't have a nice editor on the PC. I'm still wondering if there's
a way to boot from a floppy and map a share to a drive letter on the PC.
There seems to be a lot of stuff involved to make that work.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
2:43 p.m.
New subject: Networking under DOS
On Sep 21, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
Actually, setting up MS LANMAN or client is pretty
straight forward. I use
them on my DOS systems to map a disk drive to my vintage systems. Check out
MS KB Q122297 "Comparison of MS-DOS Clients for Windows NT Version 3.5" for
system requirements between the two clients.
I tried getting that going under a FreeDOS install on another computer, and all I've
managed to do is make a mess of it. It complains that I've already got TCP drivers
loaded, and as soon as I type NET USE everything crashes and I have to hit reset.
I don't even know if that stuff will work on an 8088, and I have a feeling all the
software required won't fit on a 360k floppy anyway.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
3:46 p.m.
New subject: Networking under DOS
Chris,
I can't comment on all the SW you would need to use but the clients will
work on an 8088 w/ 640KB of memory. The easiest thing to do would be to do
an install on a clean system with the setup utility and map a drive. Then
move the SW and autoexec.bat, config.sys files onto a floppy san the
unnecessary drivers.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chris Osborn
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 2:44 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Networking under DOS
On Sep 21, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
Actually, setting up MS LANMAN or client is pretty
straight forward. I
use them on my DOS systems to map a disk drive to my vintage systems.
Check out MS KB Q122297 "Comparison of MS-DOS Clients for Windows NT
Version 3.5" for system requirements between the two clients.
I tried getting that going under a FreeDOS install on another computer, and
all I've managed to do is make a mess of it. It complains that I've already
got TCP drivers loaded, and as soon as I type NET USE everything crashes and
I have to hit reset.
I don't even know if that stuff will work on an 8088, and I have a feeling
all the software required won't fit on a 360k floppy anyway.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
2:46 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 02:10 PM, Ali wrote:
Actually, setting up MS LANMAN or client is pretty
straight forward. I use
them on my DOS systems to map a disk drive to my vintage systems. Check out
MS KB Q122297 "Comparison of MS-DOS Clients for Windows NT Version 3.5" for
system requirements between the two clients.
Ah, but Mark doesn't do PC.
--Chuck
4:54 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Chuck,
This was actually directed at Chris who is using a 386.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 2:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
On 09/21/2014 02:10 PM, Ali wrote:
Actually, setting up MS LANMAN or client is pretty
straight forward. I
use them on my DOS systems to map a disk drive to my vintage systems.
Check out MS KB Q122297 "Comparison of MS-DOS Clients for Windows NT
Version 3.5" for system requirements between the two clients.
Ah, but Mark doesn't do PC.
--Chuck
5:42 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 4:54 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
This was actually directed at Chris who is using a
386.
Mark has the 386. I?ve got an 8088.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
6:27 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
You know, maybe I am getting to old for mailing lists... ;)
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chris Osborn
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 5:43 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 4:54 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
This was actually directed at Chris who is using a
386.
Mark has the 386. I've got an 8088.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
5 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 14:46 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Ah, but Mark doesn't do PC.
That's true whether you're referring to "Personal Computer" or
"Politically Correct". :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
2:12 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 13:20 , Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
On Sep 21, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
On my 386 box project, I'm booting DOS 6.22 off a MicroSD card via a SCSI2SD
interface, so for now I think I'll sneakernet the data rather than dealing with the
dubious joy of networking under DOS. :)
Maybe I'll try networking it at some point when I get around to building up a network
for my other vintage machines. Hmm, maybe I need to find DECnet software for DOS so I can
talk to the VAX with it? :p
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
I'll need to go through extra contortions to
get files on and off of the 386 box.
You just need some network attached storage. I was sneakernetting things for a while with
my 5150, but I?ve now got a boot floppy setup with mtcp tools so that I can get to ftp
& telnet.
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Networking under DOS
On Sep 21, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
On my 386 box project, I'm booting DOS 6.22 off a
MicroSD card via a SCSI2SD interface, so for now I think I'll sneakernet the data
rather than dealing with the dubious joy of networking under DOS. :)
TCP networking was super easy. Just had to find a packet driver for my ethernet card, and
mtcp takes care of the rest. Only tricky part was remembering all that IRQ/IO & jumper
stuff.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
1:57 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 01:00 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Sep 21, 2014, at 11:31 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
The gotcha there is that you're on the hook for someone to write the
appropriate software for your format. Or have the KF people opened up
their software completely, so you can roll your own? (I haven't been
paying much attention lately).
--Chuck
I don't understand the need for special
hardware. Any PC capable
of reading/writing FM and MFM should handle it.
That makes sense if you take it for granted that PCs with suitable
floppy controllers are sitting around on the shelf waiting to be
used, which is probably true for many or even most folks here. Some
of us don't generally use PCs, though, and have spent most of our
lives using mostly non-PC hardware. For me, a PC on which to run
ImageDisk is no less special than a KryoFlux or Supercard Pro board,
since I need to buy all of the hardware to build it anyway.
2:29 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 13:57 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
The gotcha there is that you're on the hook for
someone to write the appropriate software for your format. Or have the KF people opened
up their software completely, so you can roll your own? (I haven't been paying much
attention lately).
The KF people are promising script-based features in the future, but things are still
pretty much the same on that front. The KF folks and I certainly don't see eye-to-eye
on the topic of open software. By itself, a KF board with the KF software is of limited
use in my opinion, unless you're using it just for one of their very well-supported
platforms like Amiga.
However, and it's a big "however", Keir Fraser's Disk-Utilities software
makes the KF quite usable for my use cases. Not too long ago, I contacted him about the
possibility of adding support for ImageDisk .IMD files, and he added it very quickly!
I've been able to successfully write boot disks for my TRS-80 Model 4 and Model II
machines from downloaded .IMD files using KF plus Keir's latest revs of
Disk-Utilities. The KF software is still closed, and I think it's still necessary to
download and install a closed binary blob from the KF folks to enable writing of their
.ipf files (and in turn, to write arbitrary formats with KF), but Keir's software is
otherwise open:
https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities
For my use cases, Keir's Disk-Utilities software makes my KF a usable product.
BTW, he's also quietly added support to blindly write arbitrary formats under the
assumption that a single write splice safely belongs at the index pulse. I think that the
KF folks are almost religiously opposed to that idea, which I can somewhat understand
since they seem to be heavily focused on preserving copy-protected software in which all
sorts of dirty tricks are employed. But for us hardware collectors who are mostly
interested in the countless non-copy-protected disk formats used by common 1980s systems
with common FM/MFM disk controllers, I think that blindly writing with a write splice
under the index pulse ought to work most of the time. I don't have much data and
experience to back that up yet, but Keir was willing to implement something to try it out
rather than adamantly insisting that only elite professionals of the disk-writer's
guild should be allowed to lovingly hand-craft each disk format. ;)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
4:06 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 02:29 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
The KF people are promising script-based features in
the future, but
things are still pretty much the same on that front. The KF folks and
I certainly don't see eye-to-eye on the topic of open software. By
itself, a KF board with the KF software is of limited use in my
opinion, unless you're using it just for one of their very
well-supported platforms like Amiga.
Well, it's all a bit silly, with cheap high-speed MCUs with lots of
memory nowadays. Stuff I usually do with a Catweasel, I could easily do
with any of the 32-bit MCUs with at least 128K of memory.
Anyone really interested in a DIY Kyroflux-like device? I suspect that
given the speed of today's MCUs, one might also handle ST506 interface
drives. Mostly, it takes a little interface logic and a bunch of coding.
--Chuck
5:10 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sep 21, 2014, at 16:06 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Anyone really interested in a DIY Kyroflux-like
device? I suspect that given the speed of today's MCUs, one might also handle ST506
interface drives. Mostly, it takes a little interface logic and a bunch of coding.
I think the software for decoding and encoding the flux transitions is the hard part, so
compatibility with the Disk-Utilities software would be a Good Thing. I wonder if Keir
would be interested in branching out into hard disk formats if somebody donates suitable
hardware to him?
I agree that a modern MCU ought to be able to do the job. If I was designing it I'd
probably use an FPGA since that's what I'm more familiar with. And that's why
they don't let me do product definition at work. :)
I think that the ImageDisk file format could be a good starting point for storing
sector-level images of hard disks. It's presently just defined for floppy disks with
up to two surfaces, but there's room in the format to extend it for more surfaces,
more encoding types, etc.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
6:37 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 05:10 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I think the software for decoding and encoding the
flux transitions
is the hard part, so compatibility with the Disk-Utilities software
would be a Good Thing. I wonder if Keir would be interested in
branching out into hard disk formats if somebody donates suitable
hardware to him?
Not all that hard for garden-variety FM and MFM. You can do an
acceptable job with a lowly Atmel AVRmega 8-bit controller with external
memory. Heck, you can do an acceptable floppy emulator with one--that's
pretty much what the old FlashPath gizmos used.
Consider that on FM there are basically 2 intervals between flux
reversals and on MFM there are three. That's it. My floppy emulator
used 2 bits to record flux transitions(3), which left one combination
unused for future use with GCR.
Those Gotek floppy emulators that go for cheap on eBay are nothing more
than a Cortex M3 STM332F105 MCU. 32K of RAM, half-a meg of program
flash, USB OTG interface, plenty of timers, uarts, etc on chip--and
5V-tolderant inputs. About a third of the pins on the 64 pin package are
unused. Most of what little is on the board is for driving the outputs
(discrete MOSFETs).
Given that, a PIC32 or Cortex M3 running at 72+ MHz should be able to do
ST506 with not much more than the differential drivers added. An ST506
has roughly the same unformatted capacity per track as a 1.44M
floppy--it just spins faster.
But if you wanted to do an IMD-style image file, you'd probably want to
record exact address marks--although the data rate's the same on ST506
MFM drives, address marks and CRC/ECC details are different from vendor
to vendor.
--Chuck
22 Sep
22 Sep
7:58 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 06:37:12PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Not all that hard for garden-variety FM and MFM. You
can do an
acceptable job with a lowly Atmel AVRmega 8-bit controller with
external memory.
The XMOS XS1 can do it too with internal memory, and bit-bang the
ISA bus (uPD765 emulation) in another thread. Cheap microcontrollers
are amazing nowadays. I've got a bit-banging XS1 prototype and a
FDC37C78-based quicky prototype both built and apparently hardwarily
working but I'm driving myself crazy finishing up the firmware and BIOS.
My latest ISA motherboard reserves IRQ6 so the motherboard BIOS won't
work (need one that's configurable). Just as well, since 8" bootability
would be cute.
John Wilson
D Bit
21 Sep
21 Sep
5:15 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 9/21/14 4:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Anyone really interested in a DIY Kyroflux-like
device? I suspect that given the speed of today's MCUs, one might also handle ST506
interface drives.
Yes. But this seems like something that never actually gets done, along with a whole class
of things like pre-QIC 1/4" tape imaging. It's a perennial topic that never gets
any closure.
The problem is it requires a lot of knowledge of the low-level formats, and people seem to
want read/write devices (I personally could care less for the most part about writing old
media).
6:41 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/21/2014 05:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
The problem is it requires a lot of knowledge of the
low-level formats,
and people seem to
want read/write devices (I personally could care less for the most part
about writing old media).
Same here.
What with the PC-type floppy emulators running in the sub $20 range,
shipped, I'm not sure what the point of using floppies is anymore,
particularly if one can modify the firmware of one of these things.
On and off, I've tried to get some interest going, but ran into "Can't
you make it all through-hole construction? I don't do SMT." or "Can you
also make it peel potatoes?". I got nowhere. I've got a little rogue's
gallery of prototypes that I've done. I've even shared code.
Really, no mystery, just some solid work and chin-scratching.
--Chuck
22 Sep
22 Sep
8:07 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 9/21/14 6:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On and off, I've tried to get some interest going,
but ran into "Can't you make it all through-hole construction? I don't do
SMT." or "Can you also make it peel potatoes?". I got nowhere. I've
got
a little rogue's gallery of prototypes that I've done. I've even shared
code.
Really, no mystery, just some solid work and chin-scratching.
And the argument of how to talk to the thing.
I'll propose Ethernet again, default adr 128.0.0.1, dip switch to set it from
128.0.0.1 to 128.0.0.15 for multiple devices on the net, using three UDP ports
per adapter. Two devices off the top of my head would be floppy/MFM HD and streaming tape.
You would obviously only talk to one device at a time. PC would be at 128.0.0.16 on a
private un-routable interface (which is why it's 128.0.0.x).
reset/debug, cmd/status, and data.
reset/debug is its own port so that you can stop, reset the thing in the
middle of a transfer
Essentially, USB w/o the hassle of loading drivers (and getting a USB vendor ID) on the
host machine.
UDP rather than TCP to keep the IP stack tiny, and the protocol is all packet state
machine anyway.
1:28 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
I'll propose Ethernet again, default adr
128.0.0.1, dip switch to set
it from 128.0.0.1 to 128.0.0.15 for multiple devices on the net,
using three UDP ports per adapter.
This should not be done unless you've cleared it with Jump Management
(and preferably not even then, because 128.0.0/24 may well change hands
in the future).
PC would be at 128.0.0.16 on a private un-routable
interface (which
is why it's 128.0.0.x).
That sort of thing is what 10/8, 172.16/12, and 192.168/16 are for.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
5:37 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On 09/22/2014 01:28 PM, Mouse wrote:
> I'll propose Ethernet again, default adr
128.0.0.1, dip switch to set
> it from 128.0.0.1 to 128.0.0.15 for multiple devices on the net,
> using three UDP ports per adapter.
My original interface was serial (RS232C async). Are there '232 to
ethernet adapters? Are they suitable?
To be sure, there are plenty of MCUs capable of ethernet protocol, but
I'd rather see a USB connection to a suitable ethernet host to handle
that. You can choose your addressing and protocol more easily that way.
--Chuck
10:13 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote:
My original interface was serial (RS232C async). Are
there '232 to
ethernet adapters? Are they suitable?
To be sure, there are plenty of MCUs capable of ethernet protocol, but
I'd rather see a USB connection to a suitable ethernet host to handle
that. You can choose your addressing and protocol more easily that way.
Lantronix makes a number of RS232 to ethernet device servers. Right now
Lantronix is on my shit list though after I spent the better part of an
entire day troubleshooting a printer that was using one of their print
servers. Turned out the gold plating on the print server's 36-pin
"centronics" D-connector was nothing but gold flash...and it had a major
tin oxide problem which had also transferred to the printer's own
connector (with properly plated contacts). Needless to say, it wasn't
printing very well with one or more missing bits.
1:14 a.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
Anyone really interested in a DIY Kyroflux-like
device? I suspect
that given the speed of today's MCUs, one might also handle ST506
interface drives.
Yes, you can:
http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml
The BeagleBone Black's AM335x is a particularly nice CPU to use for this
kind of thing because it's got a programmable I/O controller that can
handle the real-time stuff while still running a regular OS, but you can
also do this kind of thing with less capable CPUs:
http://amigadrive.blogspot.it/
--
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
21 Sep
21 Sep
12:11 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
Christian,
Since I am trying to keep this as simple as possible what drives are "smart
enough" that I could use them with vanilla PC HW. My interest is in DD 8"
disks so not having SS capability is not an issue (at least at this point).
Also I wish to image a complete disk and write a complete disk as the disk
would be used on the original system.
Looking at Dave Dunfield's site he is using a Qume 242 which he is wiring
directly (using an adapter) to a PC. So I would assume that would be smart
enough except the only 242 I found on a quick search is listed for $340 on
eBay. So that is not happening.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Christian Corti
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 2:46 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
Do you still have the pin out for the IBM 51TD drive?
According to the
CCTalk archives you had been looking for it and seem to have found it
off list. I'd love a copy of the pin outs if you have it and/or any
advice on how to wire the 36 pin connector to a 34 pin FDD (or better
yet the 37 pin external dsub) connector. This is the 8" drive I have
access to and was used in the 5120, 5322, and the 6580 and System/36
AFAIK. It would be great if I can get PC HW (i.e. the std. IBM
controller card or the CompatiCard) to drive it. Thanks.
Forget it, that won't work:
1. You would need additional circuitry to control the drive. As an example,
the IBM disk drive needs the four stepper motor phases for head movement
whereas the Shugart interface only provides a step pulse and direction
signal. The IBM drive are much "dumber" than Shugart drives.
2. To read IBM floppies with a PC you ultimatively need a controller that
supports FM and MFM. Along with that you need either a tool that understand
the IBM disk structure or something like ImageDisk if you only want to image
the floppies.
Christian
22 Sep
22 Sep
12:55 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 5:45 AM, Christian Corti
<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Ali wrote:
That's about $10-$12 these days (Pololu steppers) for a plug-in
solution thanks to the proliferation of hobbyist 3D Printers. You
still have to wire it up, of course.
The only real question is how much "Oomf" the 51TD stepper needs and
if you can power the stepper controller from a 12V source or if you
have to go up to 24V. That will affect which stepper chip you can
use.
Do you still have the pin out for the IBM 51TD drive?
Forget it, that won't work:
1. You would need additional circuitry to control the drive. As an example,
the IBM disk drive needs the four stepper motor phases for head movement
whereas the Shugart interface only provides a step pulse and direction
signal. 2. To read IBM floppies with a PC you ultimatively
need a controller that
supports FM and MFM. Along with that you need either a tool that understand
the IBM disk structure or something like ImageDisk if you only want to image
the floppies.
The old Adaptec SCSI+floppy controllers are great for this and not too
difficult to find (if you have an ISA machine to toss them into).
-ethan
20 Sep
20 Sep
5:58 p.m.
New subject: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package available)
I agree. So to make it clear I would like to be able to image (i.e. read)
and write 8" FD for some older IBM systems that I have in my collection
(5120, 5322). I do not have the NEC machine (that was was Earl). I have
access to early IBM PCs and later clones (384/485 and on) and IBM 51TD drive
which I believe is a DD 8" drive. Ideally I'd like to interface two of these
drives to a 5160 or a 5170 using the std. IBM controller or a CompatiCard
controller (using the external connector on the CC). Thanks for all of your
invaluable info. It has got me thinking and reading up on a number of new
sources.
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Using an 8" drive on a PC (WAS RE: "Smartcom II" package
available)
A lot will depend on what you want to do.
Just cabling the drive to the PC might be enough to let you use the drive as
DSDD (1.2M) disk. But, you still might run into a few minor problems, such
as some BIOSes that choke on it if it only has 77 tracks instead of 80, or
can't switch into a "360K" mode, etc.
Some BIOSes can be an extreme pain in the ass.
If you are trying to transfer files, then you need software that understands
any differences in disk format. The NEC 8" disk format is not the same as
what PC-DOS (or non-NEC MS-DOS) is going to want to do with the 8" disk.
Uniform, 22Disk, XenoCopy all have menus from which you need to select which
disk format you are trying to work with, and with NEC 8"
selected, should let you copy files to and from those "alien" disks.
If you copy files over, you still might not be totally out of the woods;
Wordstar files can be loaded into early versions of Microsoft Weird, but not
into current ones. Visicalc files can be loaded into early versions of
Microsofr Excess, but not into current ones. Electric Pencil files, .
. .
If you use the system to copy programs, then you get to find out whether the
program is expecting the same or different hardware than you have.
If you are trying to make images of the disk in the form of copying all of
the sectors into an archive, but NOT try to separate files, then you need
software that can be configured for density, sectors per track, bytes per
sector, and number of tracks. Such as ImageDisk, or Teledisk.
So, make or buy a cable to connect an 8" drive to your PC.
(BTW, be aware that 8" drives can be SS, DS, or SS/DS - there have even been
8" drives that do DS, but can't do SS (the index hole is in a different
position)).
In addition, I would take a 1.2M drive and connect it to the NEC, and try to
find a 360RPM 3.5" drive for the NEC.
To me, the 1.2M 5.25" is the easiest for getting files back and forth, but
any of the three can be done.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
18 Sep
18 Sep
1:27 p.m.
It's NOS, in original plastic wrap (which I
don't want to open, so I
can't tell you what's in it, but I suspect manuals and 8" floppies): the
label says "For the IBM PC .. and compatibles: Version 2.2: DOS 1.1,
2.0, 2.1, 3.0 or 3.1". It has a 1985 copyright date on it.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Earl Baugh wrote:
FYI , while not to disagree with the conclusion that
this package is on
5.25 media, there WERE MS-DOS machines that came with 8 inch floppies
(as the only floppies) I have one of these :
http://oldcomputers.net/nec-apc.html (which instead of APC it is
lovingly refereed to as the "hernia-ator" since it's ridiculously
heavy.... :-) )
So, while I'm not sure there was Smartcom ever for this system, having
it on 8 inch floppies would be the way to get it loaded...
But NOT "for the IBM PC", nor using DOS version 1.1 nor 2.1.
This package would have to have been capable of running on ALL
of the ones listed.
There did exist MS-DOS machines with 8" drives, running 1.00, 1.25,
and 2.11. and probably 3.00 and 3.10
But, there were NO MS-DOS versions 1.10 nor 2.10, only PC-DOS.
And, development of the "1.2M" format was probably done using 8"!
In addition, to 8", there existed MS-DOS (NOT PC-DOS) machines with 80
track singel sided but NOT "HD", and even 3.25" drives. There were
several machines (such as Gavilan) with 3.5" drives witn MS-DOS 2.11, but
NOT the same format as the PC-DOS 3.5" that started with version 3.20.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
4:43 p.m.
On 9/18/2014 1:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Has anyone ever compiled a matrix of versions/flavors vs format and
posted it publicly?
steve
It's NOS,
in original plastic wrap (which I don't want to open, so I
can't tell you what's in it, but I suspect manuals and 8" floppies): the
label says "For the IBM PC .. and compatibles: Version 2.2: DOS 1.1,
2.0, 2.1, 3.0 or 3.1". It has a 1985 copyright date on it.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Earl Baugh wrote:
FYI , while not to disagree with the conclusion
that this package is on
5.25 media, there WERE MS-DOS machines that came with 8 inch floppies
(as the only floppies) I have one of these :
http://oldcomputers.net/nec-apc.html (which instead of APC it is
lovingly refereed to as the "hernia-ator" since it's ridiculously
heavy.... :-) )
So, while I'm not sure there was Smartcom ever for this system, having
it on 8 inch floppies would be the way to get it loaded...
But NOT "for the IBM PC", nor using DOS version 1.1 nor 2.1.
This package would have to have been capable of running on ALL
of the ones listed.
There did exist MS-DOS machines with 8" drives, running 1.00, 1.25,
and 2.11. and probably 3.00 and 3.10
But, there were NO MS-DOS versions 1.10 nor 2.10, only PC-DOS.
And, development of the "1.2M" format was probably done using 8"!
In addition, to 8", there existed MS-DOS (NOT PC-DOS) machines with 80
track singel sided but NOT "HD", and even 3.25" drives. There were
several machines (such as Gavilan) with 3.5" drives witn MS-DOS 2.11, but
NOT the same format as the PC-DOS 3.5" that started with version 3.20.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5:49 p.m.
New subject: PC-DOS and PC Compatible MS-DOS floppy formats (Was: "Smartcom II" package available
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, steve shumaker wrote:
Has anyone ever compiled a matrix of versions/flavors
vs format and
posted it publicly?
OK, to get you started:
These are PC-DOS and PC compatible MS-DOS systems.
NON-PC-compatible MS-DOS machines often did many things differently (see
Victor 9000)
MS-DOS and PC-DOS 1.00 used 5.25" MFM, 8 sectors per track, single sided
(aka "160K")
Note: there were some patches for using DS drives with DOS 1.00, treating
the second side of each disk as an additional drive!
MS-DOS 1.25 and PC-DOS 1.10 added double sided. ("160K", "320K")
MS-DOS,PC-DOS 2.00 added 9 SPT ("160K", "320K", "180K",
360K")
PC-DOS 2.10 added no new formats, but slowed down the drive access to work
with the Qume142 drives.
MS-DOS 2.11 (THERE WAS NO PC-DOS 2.11) was readily customized by OEMs.
Some added 80 track SS and/or DS drives, including 3.5" (such as
Gavilan) Many/most of the 2.11 3.5" formats were NOT the same as PC-DOS
3.5" "720K", which came with PC-DOS 3.20
MS-DOS,PC-DOS 3.00 added "1.2M". Note that that is VERY much like an
8"DSDD format. NEC people (MS-DOS not PC compatible) can now giggle
joyfully.
MS-DOS,PC-DOS 3.10 added the [undocumented?] "network redirector", which
among other things, let MSCDEX take a large drive, such as a CD-ROM
(~660M) and present it to the computer as if it were a remote device on a
network.
MS-DOS,PC-DOS 3.20 provided officially sanctioned 3.5" "720K"
Systems with 5.25" 80 track NOT-HD drives sometimes conflated them with
3.5" "720K" (see IBM PC/JX)
Both had DRIVER.SYS for such drives. (particularly on machines whose CMOS
did not have "720K")
Both had DRIVPARM, documented in MS-DOS, undocumented in PC-DOS. However,
DRIVPARM (MS-DOS OR PC-DOS) would work with most after market BIOS, but
would FAIL with real OEM IBM PC/AT BIOS!
MS-DOS,PC-DOS 3.30 added support for "1.4M"
MS-DOS 3.31 was the next heavily customized version. There was no PC-DOS
3.31. 3.31 also broke the 32M hard drive limit.
MS-DOS,PC-DOS 4.00 continued the "large" drive support, but was not
completely compatible with Norton fUtilities, which created a flood of
"bug reports".
4.01 fixed some bugs, and was also compatible with the new version of
Norton fUtilities (re-written to work with "large" drive support)
Some versions of 4.01 had a minor bug of misreporting version number as
4.00
MS-DOS 5.00 was the first RETAIl/NOT-OEM version of MS-DOS. Any versions
of MS-DOS prior to that were only allowed to be sold with a PC, although
there are some reports that there were [millions of] gray-market copies in
existence!
MS-DOS 6.00 and PC-DOS 6.10 each came bundled (DIFFERENT bundles!) with
disk compression, backup programs, etc. It installed an agressive
configuration of SMARTDRV that caused most of the press and ignorant users
to blame "disk compression" for many problems with data loss.
MS-DOS 6.20 was updated to solve the "disk compression caused data
losses". It did that ENTIRELY by reining in SMARTDRV.
MS-DOS 6.21 was due to Microsoft losing an infringement lawsuit to STAC
Electronics over their disk compression software. It was the same as 6.20
with no disk compression.
MS-DOS 6.22 was the same as 6.20 and 6.21 with non-infringing disk
compression.
I don't remember which version of DOS introduced the "2.8M" format.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8:24 p.m.
New subject: PC-DOS and PC Compatible MS-DOS floppy formats (Was: "Smartcom II" package available
On 09/18/2014 05:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
MS-DOS 2.11 (THERE WAS NO PC-DOS 2.11) was readily
customized by OEMs.
Some added 80 track SS and/or DS drives, including 3.5" (such as
Gavilan) Many/most of the 2.11 3.5" formats were NOT the same as PC-DOS
3.5" "720K", which came with PC-DOS 3.20
It's worth noting that although both MS-DOS and PC-DOS 3.5" "720K"
formats were defined, they weren't the same in terms of FAT and cluster
size. By MS-DOS 5.0, the difference had been resolved (in favor of
Microsoft).
NEC people (MS-DOS not PC compatible) can now giggle
joyfully.
Indeed, PC98 used the *same* format for 8", 5.25" and 3.5" media. In
other words, they did it right. The 3.5" HD drives spin at 360 RPM,
just like the HD 5.25" and 8" ones.
--Chuck
8:34 p.m.
New subject: PC-DOS and PC Compatible MS-DOS floppy formats (Was: "Smartcom II" package available
Thanks for that informative bit of info Fred. A couple of
questions/comments:
1. Do I detect a bit of cynicism toward Norton Utilities? ;)
2. I thought MS-DOS was available in retail prior to 5. I have seen 3.2 in
retail packaging (Plexiglas box, "MS blue theme"). I have to check what I
have at home (I don't have 3.2 last one I saw went for over $250 on eBay)
but I think I have some other versions that do not say only for sale with
HW.
3. According to Scott Mueller's "Upgrading" book DOS 5.0 and on supported
2.88MB drives.
-Ali
1:34 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Earl Baugh wrote:
So, while I'm not sure there was Smartcom ever for
this system, having
it on 8 inch floppies would be the way to get it loaded...
Certainly the "best" way, but couldn't we copy it over from another
machine, using Smartcom? :-)
And, I will concede that there were AFTER-MARKET 8" systems, including,
but not limited to, Flagstaff Engineering, Vista, Maynard, etc.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
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