On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: Here's a data point for you. Recently I had a IBM 7133-020 SSA disk array (not on topic) shipped to me a significant chunk of metal and weighs about 110 pounds. My UPS driver complained vociferously while he wrestled it out of the truck and up to my door. I would have, too. Anyway, I opened up the package and found the disk cabinet had been placed in the bottom of an otherwise empty box, with predictable results. http://www.bears.org/~red/7133/ The 'missing packaging' photo is essentially what things looked like when I opened the box. The rest of the photos detail the damage done. Clearly this is not the fault of UPS. I couldn't have filed an insurance claim, and it would've been unreasonable of me to have done so. The entire burden of the damage was on the bonehead shipper who didn't pack the thing. To the shipper's credit, he took responsibility and shipped me another one (again, in an otherwise-empty box (grr!) but which arrived, mercifully, intact). I have for years received packages regularly that have been shipped via UPS, and this is the only one that's had any sort of damage. Usually the packages are small, but not always. The point is, UPS publishes packaging guidelines. Use them and be happy. Based on my experience, I'd have to say that your gripes with UPS destroying packages might better be placed squarely on the inadequate use of packing materials. Of course, I'm leaving aside the time the driver left my brand-new Olympus E-10 in a white box in the snow in the middle of the driveway where I almost drove over it, in complete defiance of the 'must sign for' flag on the delivery slip... ok r.