30 Jul
2002
30 Jul
'02
5:05 p.m.
Yes, they are 80x24. I plan to scan one of them for netposterity. :)
Will post link when I get it done.
Anyone know where the genesis of 80x24/40x24 screen dimensions (and quite
a few other devices) has its origination in? I remember my old dot matrix
epson used to be 80 columns wide, and most of the older 8 bit computers
had 40 or 80 cols by 24 or 25 rows. "But why?" he cried...
Regards,
Louis
From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Fortran Coding Form Pads...
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 21:45:07 -0600
Organization: Erlacher Associates
Reply-To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Are these the ones with 24 lines of 80 columns? Several major vendors
modeled their coding forms after the U.S. military coding forms,
presumably cooked up by the Navy. I've only seen the blue ones, (blue
lines) which I presume were patterned after the USAF ones. They worked
great for coding when the work product was going to that huge room full of
mini-skirted (back then) keypunch operators. (I'd have given a week's
pay for a couple of hours hours to fish around in that room ... <sigh> ...
)
I did, BTW, code in Fortran back then.
Dick
30 Jul
30 Jul
8:29 p.m.
Certainly, screen dimensions were modelled after punched cards: There
were 80 columns on a punched card, and once everybody was used to that
line length, it was an obvious choice to make the screen just as wide -
except for a couple of clever guys who made the screen 64 columns wide,
which happens to be a power of two.
40 columns was done on some home equipment. Reducing the number of
columns also reduces the bandwidth required in the video path, so you
were able to use a home TV instead of an expensive specialized monitor.
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not. But, why did punched cards have just 80 columns?
Regards,
Andreas
Louis Florit wrote:
Yes, they are 80x24. I plan to scan one of them for netposterity. :)
Will post link when I get it done.
Anyone know where the genesis of 80x24/40x24 screen dimensions (and quite
a few other devices) has its origination in? I remember my old dot matrix
epson used to be 80 columns wide, and most of the older 8 bit computers
had 40 or 80 cols by 24 or 25 rows. "But why?" he cried...
Regards,
Louis
--
Andreas Freiherr
Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany
http://www.vishay.com
10:09 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:28:06AM +0200, Andreas Freiherr wrote:
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not.
That one is a verified urban legend, but still funny.
http://www.snopes2.com/history/american/gauge.htm
Regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derzeit auf Jobsuche: http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~als/cv.html
31 Jul
31 Jul
6:14 a.m.
New subject: OT: Horse's ass
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:28:06AM +0200, Andreas
Freiherr wrote:
Well, upon reading the Snopes discourse, it is not really an urban legend
at all, but is in reality a carry-over from ancient times based on
practicality. In fact, they go on to say it is basically true but "for
trivial and unremarkable reasons".
So it is not myth.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not.
That one is a verified urban legend, but still funny.
http://www.snopes2.com/history/american/gauge.htm 
3:58 a.m.
Although IBM cards were 80 columns wide, the last eight columns were
reserved for a sequence number in case the deck was dropped. The deck
could then be put back in order with a card sorter. That left 72 columns
for code and/or data...
Any 72 column monitors out there?
Nick
At 10:28 AM 7/31/02 +0200, you wrote:
Certainly, screen dimensions were modelled after
punched cards: There
were 80 columns on a punched card, and once everybody was used to that
line length, it was an obvious choice to make the screen just as wide -
except for a couple of clever guys who made the screen 64 columns wide,
which happens to be a power of two.
40 columns was done on some home equipment. Reducing the number of
columns also reduces the bandwidth required in the video path, so you
were able to use a home TV instead of an expensive specialized monitor.
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not. But, why did punched cards have just 80 columns?
Regards,
Andreas
Louis Florit wrote:
Yes, they are 80x24. I plan to scan one of them for netposterity. :)
Will post link when I get it done.
Anyone know where the genesis of 80x24/40x24 screen dimensions (and quite
a few other devices) has its origination in? I remember my old dot matrix
epson used to be 80 columns wide, and most of the older 8 bit computers
had 40 or 80 cols by 24 or 25 rows. "But why?" he cried...
Regards,
Louis
--
Andreas Freiherr
Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany
http://www.vishay.com 
4:18 a.m.
Nick Gessler wrote:
Although IBM cards were 80 columns wide, the last
eight columns were
reserved for a sequence number in case the deck was dropped. The deck
could then be put back in order with a card sorter. That left 72
columns for code and/or data...
The last 8 colums were only used for sequence numbers by convention and
then normally only for program source code, a use of cards which came
very late in their history. They were not reserved and many applications
used all 80 columns for data.
-- hbp
4:01 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Andreas Freiherr wrote:
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway
tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not. But, why did punched cards have just 80 columns?
The physical dimensions of the punched cards were chosen to match dollar
bills, so that the processing hardware could make use of existing
subassemblies. I don't know why that particular hole to hole spacing was
chosen, but that combined with the size of the cards resulted in 80
column.
6:20 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
The physical dimensions of the punched cards were
chosen to match dollar
bills, so that the processing hardware could make use of existing
subassemblies. I don't know why that particular hole to hole spacing was
chosen, but that combined with the size of the cards resulted in 80
column.
Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than a dollar bill.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
6:26 a.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
The dollar was BIGGER in the 1890's. A good example of how your
buying power is shrinking.
The physical dimensions of the punched cards were
chosen to match dollar
bills, so that the processing hardware could make use of existing
subassemblies. I don't know why that particular hole to hole spacing was
chosen, but that combined with the size of the cards resulted in 80
column.
Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than a dollar bill. 
6:30 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
I'm looking at an E-series bill (pre-'60) and although I haven't seen
a punchcard in a while, I think they're darn close.
Doc
The physical dimensions of the punched cards were
chosen to match dollar
bills, so that the processing hardware could make use of existing
subassemblies. I don't know why that particular hole to hole spacing was
chosen, but that combined with the size of the cards resulted in 80
column.
Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than a dollar bill.
6:57 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Doc Shipley wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Ah, the thought hadn't even crossed my mind that bills have shrunk in size
since the punch card was invented. I'm a product of the 1970s :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)
wrote:
I'm looking at an E-series bill (pre-'60) and although I haven't seen
a punchcard in a while, I think they're darn close. The physical dimensions of the punched cards were
chosen to match dollar
bills, so that the processing hardware could make use of existing
subassemblies. I don't know why that particular hole to hole spacing was
chosen, but that combined with the size of the cards resulted in 80
column.
Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than a dollar bill.
8:31 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I have been unable to casually check the veracity of it, since I don't
have any of the older (larger) bills. I'm sure that somewhere google
could probably find the dimensions for comparison.
The physical
dimensions of the punched cards were chosen to match dollar
bills, so that the processing hardware could make use of existing
subassemblies. I don't know why that particular hole to hole spacing was
chosen, but that combined with the size of the cards resulted in 80
column.
Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than a dollar bill.
9:26 a.m.
> Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than
a dollar bill.
http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/hollerith.html
Has a few nice pictures.
9:42 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Are you sure? A punch card is a bit larger than a
dollar bill.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
Speaking of that, would anyone on the list be willing to send me a punch
card? I have never actually seen one in person yet...
--
-Linc Fessenden
In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right...
9:59 a.m.
linc fessenden wrote:
Speaking of that, would anyone on the list be willing
to send me a punch
card? I have never actually seen one in person yet...
Check this link out until you get real Card.
http://www.facade.com/legacy/punchcard/
Have fun.
4:12 p.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote:
Check this link out until you get real Card.
http://www.facade.com/legacy/punchcard/
Hey, that's really cool!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
11:48 a.m.
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2:56 p.m.
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
I've seen 132 column screens too (why 132???) but
did anyone ever try to
make a 128 column screen (or printer)? It would seem to be a logical size
to make it, but I've never seen one.
I have an old Panasonic 24-pin wide-carriage that does 132. I think
132-column printers were fairly common.
Doc
3:07 p.m.
Doc Shipley wrote:
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Most printers can be put in condensed mode to give you 132.
I've seen 132 column screens too (why 132???)
but did anyone ever try to
make a 128 column screen (or printer)? It would seem to be a logical size
to make it, but I've never seen one.
I have an old Panasonic 24-pin wide-carriage that does 132. I think
132-column printers were fairly common.
Doc
1 Aug
1 Aug
11:24 a.m.
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31 Jul
31 Jul
4:53 p.m.
New subject: Fortran Coding Form Pads...u
Certainly, screen dimensions were modelled after punched cards: There
were 80 columns on a punched card, and once everybody was used to that
line length, it was an obvious choice to make the screen just as wide -
except for a couple of clever guys who made the screen 64 columns wide,
which happens to be a power of two.
I've seen 132 column screens too (why 132???) but did anyone ever try to
make a 128 column screen (or printer)? It would seem to be a logical size
to make it, but I've never seen one.
7:45 p.m.
At 10:28 AM 31/07/2002 +0200, Andreas Freiherr wrote:
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway
tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not. But, why did punched cards have just 80 columns?
I'd always been told that "standard gauge" was based on the track of
The Rocket - Stephenson's first steam locomotive.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
1 Aug
1 Aug
12:23 a.m.
I would have guessed that the gauge was based on the common tramway
gauges of the time. Wasn't Stephenson involved with the Wyllam Dilly
(sp?) engine? that could have been an influence.
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
At 10:28 AM 31/07/2002 +0200, Andreas Freiherr wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
I have heard that the gauge of today's railway
tracks (1435mm or 4'
8.5"), and hence even the dimensions of Space Shuttle's boosters go back
to ancient Roman vehicles built to the width of two horse's backs, maybe
true or maybe not. But, why did punched cards have just 80 columns?
I'd always been told that "standard gauge" was based on the track of
The Rocket - Stephenson's first steam locomotive.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
9:34 a.m.
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
I'd always been told that "standard
gauge" was based on the track of
The Rocket - Stephenson's first steam locomotive.
And what was IT based on?
If you follow each stage back, eventually EVERYTHING resolves to the size
of the king's body parts or his horse's ass.
30 Jul
30 Jul
8:36 p.m.
Louis Florit wrote:
Yes, they are 80x24. I plan to scan one of them for
netposterity. :)
Will post link when I get it done.
Cute, I can contribut a few nice onesa also if you want to set up a
collection.
Some time ago I came across a site with a collection of scans of punched
cards but have not located it recently, anyone known where it is?
-- hbp
11:57 p.m.
Some time ago I came across a site with a collection
of scans of
punched cards but have not located it recently, anyone known
where it is?
While I don't know which site you found, The U.Iowa site is
mentioned below. At this moment it seems to be offline.
John A.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Tothwolf wrote:
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, John Allain wrote:
One of our list members just made it to the big
leagues. The NY Times
printed a large photo article on Douglas W. Jones today. Seems his
extensive collection of punched cards caught their eye. A good case
for a well-managed collection it seems.
"When PC Still Means 'Punch Card'"
New York Times, 'Circuits', 07-Feb-2002
Heres a link to the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/07/technology/circuits/07CARD.html
31 Jul
31 Jul
3:48 a.m.
Some time ago
I came across a site with a collection of scans of
punched cards but have not located it recently, anyone known
where it is?
While I don't know which site you found, The U.Iowa site is
mentioned below. At this moment it seems to be offline.
6:05 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Hans B Pufal wrote:
Louis Florit wrote:
To that end I just received some Univac 1100 coding forms.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
Yes, they are 80x24. I plan to scan one of them
for netposterity. :)
Will post link when I get it done.
Cute, I can contribut a few nice onesa also if you want to set up a
collection.
7947
days inactive
7948
days old
29 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
allain＠panix.com -
als＠thangorodrim.de -
Andreas.Freiherr＠Vishay.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
at258＠osfn.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
celigne＠celigne.freeserve.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
florit＠unixville.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
gessler＠ucla.edu -
hansp＠aconit.org -
Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
lincoln.fessenden＠verizon.net -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com