23 Jun
1998
23 Jun
'98
6:41 a.m.
Okay, since I was the person who started this firestorm of
controversy, this is the last I will say about this issue.
Let me begin by saying that I did not purchase this IMSAI
when I had the opportunity for three reasons:
1. I didn't have $300
2. The machine, though historic, did nothing for me
(I'll Explain)
3. I don't (in general) collect Intel.
Not being into S-100 (I'm an SS-50 person, myself), the machine
had little appeal to me. But I knew that there would be at least
a few of you out there on this list who would be interested.
So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing
at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally
felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway).
What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy
$300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy
was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ?
c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?)
Anyways, this chain of events was definitely _not_ my intention.
Of course, the adage: "The road to Hell is paved grandest of
good intentions" certainly applies here.
I offer my most sincerest apologies for this debacle. Yes, I
know, the deed is done, and it looks like a few of you out there
have been hurt by this. I'm sorry. Had I known this was gonna
happen, I'd a sent the guy to ebay.
Further, I don't think I will be offering any more material that may
be considered 'Investment Grade' (should I encounter any) in the
future, and I would encourage others to do likewise.
Private mail is better. If anyone has any gripes/comments, please
address them directly to me:
jeff.kaneko(a)ifrsys.com
And let's give the mailing list back to our hobby, where it belongs.
Thank you for your attention . . ..
Jeff Kaneko
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Disclaimer: |
| |
| These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the |
| policies or opinions of my employer. |
| |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
At 02:51 AM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
Well... while it may not improve the price, it may improve the audience...
B^}
While trying to NOT reignite another flame war (which I probably contribute
to), the qualifier on this idea might be that when you post something, post
it with an acceptable price. IMHO that should not be a difficult
proposition for someone who is looking for a good home for a piece of
equipment. If you are just going to relocate an auction, then you are
probably only in it for the money! (boy, am I gonna get yelled at for THAT
one)
What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more
often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in
the last month)
Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with
a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I
find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide
shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has
received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as
an opportunity for further response.
Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter
to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have
'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I
decide I don't want it.
I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed.
And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages.
The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very
similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above...
BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!)
-jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...)
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
For
Sale:
IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer
[...]
Asking price: $300
After a round of email bidding, the seller sez:
IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE.
Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff
directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online
auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think.
FWIW,
Doug (still IMSAI-less) 
23 Jun
23 Jun
6:48 a.m.
At 09:41 AM 6/23/98 -0600, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing
at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally
felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway).
What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy
$300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy
was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ?
c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?)
I don't think you need to apologize. You did the list a service
by announcing the availability of this machine.
What I don't understand is the need for the disparagement of
the character and intelligence of the person who (supposedly,
who really knows what happens off-line) paid $1,000 for it.
Just because someone had the money and the desire, someone else is
willing to claim they don't know value, won't know how to
take care of it, and couldn't possible enjoy it after paying
that much? Sounds like sour grapes. Keep hunting for the
dumpster'd IMSAI covered in coffee grounds, and you'll be
truly happy someday, I guess. :-)
On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to accept the
first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the
complaints about sellers who don't know how to conduct a decent
online bidding war. Far too often my persistent e-mails will be
ignored, only to be summarily dismissed when the item has
been sold. Geez, at least give me a chance to outbid!
- John
7:19 a.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
One way to look at it:
(If you don't mind analogies)
You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. Now you have two parties
interested in the car: A collector, who can't really afford to pay much for
it, but who would take care of the car and try to keep it in perfect
condition as long as he had it, and the other guy: Some snot-nosed teenager
(no offense to the teens out there!) who has a rich daddy, money to burn,
and is addicted to speed. This guy will go through 5 sets of tires in the
first month, leave the car out in the rain, get dents and dings all over
it, and generally drive it like a maniac. But this second guy is offering
10 times what the poor collector is offering. What do you do? What DO you
do? Sell the car, go out and find 4 or 5 stingrays in shoddy condition, and
start fixing them up, maybe give the poor collector a deal on one, keep one
for yourself, and keep an eye out for more rich kids to sell the other two
cars to. Everyone's happy. :)
At 10:48 AM 6/23/98 -0500, you wrote:
What I don't understand is the need for the
disparagement of
the character and intelligence of the person who (supposedly,
who really knows what happens off-line) paid $1,000 for it.
Just because someone had the money and the desire, someone else is
willing to claim they don't know value, won't know how to
take care of it, and couldn't possible enjoy it after paying
that much? Sounds like sour grapes. Keep hunting for the
dumpster'd IMSAI covered in coffee grounds, and you'll be
truly happy someday, I guess. :-)
________________________________________
john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net -
webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com -
"Teamwork is essential; it gives the -
enemy other people to shoot at." -
7:50 a.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote:
One way to look at it:
(If you don't mind analogies)
You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. Now you have two parties
interested in the car: A collector, who can't really afford to pay much for
it, but who would take care of the car and try to keep it in perfect
condition as long as he had it, and the other guy: Some snot-nosed teenager
(no offense to the teens out there!) who has a rich daddy, money to burn,
and is addicted to speed. This guy will go through 5 sets of tires in the
first month, leave the car out in the rain, get dents and dings all over
it, and generally drive it like a maniac. But this second guy is offering
10 times what the poor collector is offering. What do you do? What DO you
do? Sell the car, go out and find 4 or 5 stingrays in shoddy condition, and
start fixing them up, maybe give the poor collector a deal on one, keep one
for yourself, and keep an eye out for more rich kids to sell the other two
cars to. Everyone's happy. :)
Perhaps... It would appear though that the subject of this writing thinks
of this car as nothing more than a machine. No history, no meaning...
Just so much metal, fibreglass, and parts...
...and there are 'always' more out there... Whats one car more or less
in the remaining mix?
Did you make enough money on the deal to cover your time/effort in finding
these "4 or 5" others, fixing them up, and doing a favour for this other
collector? Just how long DID it take to find them? (and how much did
they cost?)
And what if perhaps there are NOT 4 or five more out there? (remember, we
are expanding the analogy beyond cars)
No flamage... just that the analogy does not work for everyone...
(new <somewhat non-computer related> example coming to my web pages
soon...)
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
8:02 a.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
At 12:19 PM 6/23/98 -0400, John Higginbotham wrote:
One way to look at it: (If you don't mind
analogies)
You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray.
My point exactly. Based on the descriptions here, you have no
idea if the $1,000 IMSAI buyer is the poor, honest, respectful
collector, or the snot-nosed rich kid. You have no idea how
the new owner will treat the gizmo. If you feel personal
attributes should sway the sale, then you'll need to interview
the seller to determine their worthiness, too.
As I see it, price is always determined between buyer and
seller - period.
- John
9:50 a.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
As I see it, price is always determined between buyer
and
seller - period.
Right. So far this thread has managed to insult the seller as
unprincipled (unless this thread is really about high school principals,
as the title suggests), and the buyer as a somebody with more money than
knowledge.
Keep in mind that the seller was not a collector, and that $1000 is a lot
less than most people spend on a PC that becomes worthless to them after
about 6 months.
The new market efficiencies that the internet brings to the collecting
game only make that local hunt and kill that much more satisfying. And
what about buyer principles? Next time your neighbor offers to give you a
free IMSAI, do you accept, or do you let them know that they could get
$1000 by offerring it on the net?
-- Doug
10:58 a.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
The new market efficiencies that the internet brings
to the collecting
game only make that local hunt and kill that much more satisfying. And
what about buyer principles? Next time your neighbor offers to give you a
free IMSAI, do you accept, or do you let them know that they could get
$1000 by offerring it on the net?
HAHA! Exactly. I went over this dilemma in my mind as well. Sometimes I
get outrageous deals (compared to the online auctions of course) and feel
just the slightest bit guilty that I know where these guys could have made
ten times more. But the deal is, it's up to them to find the buyer, not
me. We negotiate and agree upon a price, and both parties walk away
happy. I pay what I feel is a fair price, regardless of what the
prevailing online prices may be.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 06/11/98]
11:41 a.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
Old adage: (slightly updated)
"An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to
pay for it"
Corollary: (much newer)
"An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..."
---
(and now, on with the flame-resistant suit...)
In answer to a question posed in an earlier entry in this thread:
(paraphrased somewhat)
"if someone offers you a free IMSAI, do you tell them that they could sell
it for a lot more on the net/web?"
In general, no. Now, before the flames start; allow me to finish...
If someone offers an item to me (usually knowing what I do with them
either from experience or reference) for a price (even if that
happens to be 'free') that they are comfortable with, then so be it.
Now, as a counter to that if someone (even that same person) asks me what
an item is 'worth', I will also answer that to the best of my current
knowledge. I usually end up qualifying that with what the given item is
worth 'to me', and what it might be worth 'on the open market', which is
usually the most recent sale I've seen on the net/web or online auctions.
And does this mean that on occasion I've lost a shot at an item at
a better price because someone has changed their mind once they know that
there are other options? Yes. Does that upset me? Depends...
If the negociation/discussion has proceeded politely, then no. Until
the deal is finished the item still belongs to them. If they change
their mind, thats their perogative. You might be surprised how many times
that I have had this entire discussion, and the people have just gone
"oh, well I would not have thought it might be worth $X", and let me have
it anyway.
If however the potential 'seller' gets self-righteous on me suddenly, (if
suddenly it becomes "so you are trying to rip me off?!?")
then yes, I'll get upset (and it will be a colder day in Hell, Norway
before I'll deal with them again). If they expect me to do their
homework/market research for them, they had better lead the discussion
with some $eriou$ money in my direction!
I am primarily a collector. (preservationist if you will) I would just as
rather trade/swap/barter items back and forth than sell them. (much less
hassle in the long run)
This also means that since I don't operate in the same mentality as a
'business' would, I don't approach every deal/offer with the pre-concieved
qualifier that I have to leave myself room for a 40% profit margin on
every item, (or for the 'speculator', 200% to 400%) and spend a lot of
time beating people up over price. I'll decide what something is worth 'to
me', and work from there...
I won't necessarily volunteer extra information in the midst of a deal,
but I won't avoid a direct question either...
(gads, these suits get hot after a few minutes...) B^}
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
12:40 p.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, James Willing wrote:
Old adage: (slightly updated)
"An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to
pay for it"
Corollary: (much newer)
"An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..."
This should really be:
"An item has no value unless there is a BUYER for it."
If however the potential 'seller' gets
self-righteous on me suddenly, (if
suddenly it becomes "so you are trying to rip me off?!?")
then yes, I'll get upset (and it will be a colder day in Hell, Norway
before I'll deal with them again). If they expect me to do their
homework/market research for them, they had better lead the discussion
with some $eriou$ money in my direction!
Exactly. There is value in knowing where to sell something to get the
maximum dollar amount for it. We all happen to have that knowledge. Cut
out all the emotion and its called buy low/sell high; free-market economy.
You don't get pissed off at your grocer or the place you buy your clothes
from for buying their goods at a price much lower than
what you pay.
The thing is this (IMO): I think its normal to feel maybe slightly guilty
about buying something (say a nice IMSAI) from someone for far less than
what they could get somewhere else that you know of. Basically, I think
most if not all of us are basically nice people and don't want to feel
like we are ripping anyone off or taking advantage of them. And we can't
help those feelings. Heck, I'll freely admit that I sometimes feel guilty
about it. But we invest time and money and passion into this hobby, and I
don't think its wrong to take advantage of a good deal when one comes
your way.
I am primarily a collector. (preservationist if you
will) I would just as
rather trade/swap/barter items back and forth than sell them. (much less
hassle in the long run)
Well, I consider myself an archivist/preservationist, which by definition
means I "collect". If I'm to preserve as many computers for future
generations as possible then I've got to be frugal with my purchases.
This also means that since I don't operate in the
same mentality as a
'business' would, I don't approach every deal/offer with the pre-concieved
qualifier that I have to leave myself room for a 40% profit margin on
every item, (or for the 'speculator', 200% to 400%) and spend a lot of
time beating people up over price. I'll decide what something is worth 'to
me', and work from there...
Preach on, Brother James!
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 06/11/98]
1:27 p.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 2290 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/51ea7a41/at…
9:53 p.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
James Willing wrote:
"if someone offers you a free IMSAI, do you tell them that they could
sell
it for a lot more on the net/web?"
In general, no. Now, before the flames start; allow me to finish...
That can be a hard question to answer. The IBM 5100 that I acquired
several months included the printer, an external tape drive, and a
monitor. All of this was at no charge. Having just seen pricing on
just the 5100 ranging up to $500 or so, I went ahead and told this
person about it. They responded by saying not a problem, and for me to
enjoy. In general, I have found that being a fairly avid collector
makes it much easier to deal with people who are looking for a good home
for their old computers.
12:36 p.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1404 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/237434fb/at…
6:09 p.m.
New subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)
John Higginbotham wrote:
One way to look at it:
(If you don't mind analogies)
You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. Now you have two parties
interested in the car: A collector, who can't really afford to pay much for
it, but who would take care of the car and try to keep it in perfect
condition as long as he had it, and the other guy: Some snot-nosed teenager
(no offense to the teens out there!) who has a rich daddy, money to burn,
and is addicted to speed. This guy will go through 5 sets of tires in the
first month, leave the car out in the rain, get dents and dings all over
it, and generally drive it like a maniac. But this second guy is offering
10 times what the poor collector is offering. What do you do? What DO you
do? Sell the car, go out and find 4 or 5 stingrays in shoddy condition, and
start fixing them up, maybe give the poor collector a deal on one, keep one
for yourself, and keep an eye out for more rich kids to sell the other two
cars to. Everyone's happy. :)
Problem, body dents are the _hardest_ and _most expensive_ part of
restoring old Corvettes. The engines are easy. Tires are cheap. I
gave up that hobby early on. (Fiberglass is a bitch to patch).
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
12:32 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 449 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/03abff89/at…
1:16 p.m.
At 10:32 PM 6/23/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, I agree in principle, but it depends on the details.
I think the reality is that if someone thought (or was told) that
their IMSAI was only worth $300 but after they advertise it on the
net and three dozen screaming collectors beg to pay more, I don't
blame them for trying to raise the price. They simply could've
been misinformed. After all, it's not sold until it's sold.
Why can't they rescind their offer if they think they advertised
a poor price?
- John
On the other
hand, the seller would be stupid to accept the
first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the
No, he wouldn't be stupid, he'd be honest. I'm sorry, but if I offer
something for sale and quote a price, then the first person to offer that
price gets it, no matter how many other offers I get, and no matter how
much those other offers are. I've decided what I think it's worth, and
that's the end of it.
6:14 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
That's the way it works. If the offer says $300, first one gets it. If
the offer says _minimum bid_ $300, that's different. Of course if the
offer says $300 obo, then if the best bid after a week is $50, in theory
that should cover it.
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to
accept the
first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the
No, he wouldn't be stupid, he'd be honest. I'm sorry, but if I offer
something for sale and quote a price, then the first person to offer that
price gets it, no matter how many other offers I get, and no matter how
much those other offers are. I've decided what I think it's worth, and
that's the end of it. 
2:49 p.m.
At 09:41 AM 6/23/98 -0600, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
SNIP
So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing
at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally
felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway).
What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy
$300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy
was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ?
c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?)
I don't think you need to apologize. You did the list a service
by announcing the availability of this machine.
On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to
accept the
first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the
complaints about sellers who don't know how to conduct a decent
online bidding war. Far too often my persistent e-mails will be
ignored, only to be summarily dismissed when the item has
been sold. Geez, at least give me a chance to outbid!
- John
I've reposted availability messages to the list and inevitably received
offers or requests for info. Depending how I'm feeling that day , I'll either
respond by pointing out that it was just a heads-up or else ignore the
message.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
9531
days inactive
9532
days old
16 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
higginbo＠netpath.net -
jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
yowza＠yowza.com