Chuck, there are a few things you may have forgotten. By the time one has learned enough about parenting to be of use, it's too late for one's own children. I've seen exceptions occur, in cases where when the first "seating" has exited the scene, a second one is introduced. Those are the exception rather than the rule, however. Secondly, in an effort to make the nation's children safe from the few truly abusive parents that we have in our communities, society has rendered illegal the best and easiest-to-use tool, FEAR, sometimes best bundled with GUILT, which is the other of these two tools for childrearing. I had the harrowing experience of having a "counselor," and outsourced individual provided by a district subcontractor, tell one of my sons that my rather stern regimen of discipline was "too strict" and, thereby, validating his desire to disregard my direction. Within weeks the boy was skipping school, smoking, and not just tobacco, and who knows what else. His school work was already poor, so that didn't fall off much. It was a long hard couple of years getting him through high school and off to college. Does this shed any light? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! anyone