14 May
2007
14 May
'07
8:01 a.m.
Hi
When preserving something you go for the best example you can find.
Even so in this case there was no choice involved. I want to keep as
original as I can a a PDP-11 from the era when I was working with them.
Speed is not an issue and a slower (but working)DEC KDJ11 board would
satisfy my criteria for originality.
All of your points are well made. One is very important the KDJ11-EB has
its memory on the CPU board. Are you saying some models of the KDJ11 do
not have their memory on the CPU board? Is it a case of unpopulated
sockets and add memory or is it no sockets and no memory?
Reading from the factory label the 11/94 was confgured thus
Slot 1 M8981 (Now sadly empty)
Slot 2 M7914
Slot 3 Empty
Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B
Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB
Slot 6 Empty
Slot 7 Empty
Slot 8 Empty
Slot 9 M9302 & M9713
So excluding the expensive options can anybody say exactly which board I
need. Full module and DEC code to me please. For example only say
M8980-AA KDJ11-BB
I must get a list of the KDJ11 boards. Iv'e seen one somewhere.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine
Sent: 14 May 2007 03:16
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: The Last of The Line
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Sunday 13
May 2007 06:28, Rod Smallwood wrote:
Hi All
Now for my dilemma. Before checking the cost of a KDJ11-EB you are
advised to make sure pacemaker batteries are fully charged and any
blood pressue medication has been taken. Take it from me the prices
are so high they need to join the astronaut corps!
..which is probably why your systems were missing the CPU boards when
yo got them...
I would like to get at least one of these historic
systems running
again. Suggestions please!!
It'd be a lot less expensive to turn it into an 11/84, the CPU for that (some models of KDJ11-B) should be much less expensive,
then just add
memory. :)
Jerome Fine replies:
Your suggestion might not be possible. I once had the box and boards
for an 11/94. I really can't remember, but there might not have been
any slots for the memory.
In any case, I am extremely curious. What goal(s) will you achieve? Do
you want to run software faster? Is your only goal to have the fastest
PDP-11 that DEC ever produced? Note that a number of other companies
produced much faster PDP-11 CPU boards. Note that I very much
appreciate that from a hardware point of view your goal is extremely
gratifying - probably even more than my software goals. I am just
curious what your goals are.
One of my goals when I run using PDP-11 software is to run as fast as
possible. At present I run at about
15 times a PDP-11/93. Very shortly, I hope to be upgrading my hardware
and be able to run at 100 times a PDP-11/93 along with the availability
of having an extra GigaByte of spare memory for data that may also allow
a co-processor to perform CPU intensive calculations.
About 20 years ago, I was using a PDP-11/23+ on a system with 4 MB of
memory which included a co-processor that used the same memory as the
PDP-11/23+.
Any finally, although my experience is with an 11/93 on the Qbus, I
found that there is very little difference between an 11/93 and an 11/83
as far as CPU speed is concerned. That would also be likely to apply to
the difference between an 11/94 and an 11/84. Basically, I suggest that
the only difference in speed is due to the clock rate of 20 MHz on the
11/93 board and the
18 MHz clock rate (or crystal if you prefer) on the
11/83 board. Otherwise, the PMI memory on the 11/83 is probably about
as fast as the on board memory on the 11/93.
As for the actual CPU, almost all M8190 quad CPU boards or KDJ11-Bx
(maybe all) allow the use of PMI memory which is the primary reason the
11/83 is faster than the 11/73. The other reason is the 18 MHz clock
rate on the 11/83 as opposed to the 15 MHz clock rate on the 11/73. So
if anyone has a M8190 CPU with non-PMI memory and can find some PMI
memory, then as long as there are ABCD slots available for all of the
memory and CPU boards, the system will run much faster with PMI memory.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
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14 May
14 May
8:02 p.m.
On Mon, 14 May 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote:
When preserving something you go for the best example
you can find.
Even so in this case there was no choice involved. I want to keep as
original as I can a a PDP-11 from the era when I was working with them.
Speed is not an issue and a slower (but working)DEC KDJ11 board would
satisfy my criteria for originality.
I've never met an 11/94, so I'm no expert. My understanding of the
situation was the 11/94 was built when it became possible to put all of
the memory on the CPU board.
The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory was in the slots
between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU
board using a private memory interconnect protocol. I don't recall
whether there was an additional ribbon cable across the top, like the
MicroVAX II.
I'm pretty certain (but, have been wrong before) that the KDJ11-BB would
be the 11/83 or 11/84 CPU; they used the same CPU board, differing in
the backplane and whether the UNIBUS adapter was present.
--
roger ivie
rivie at ridgenet.net
8:27 p.m.
On 14/05/2007 21:02, Roger Ivie wrote:
The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory
was in the slots
between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU
board using a private memory interconnect protocol.
It doesn't need a ribbon cable, but PMI uses the CD-interconnect instead
of the QBus, and the memory has to be in a higher slot (physically, that
is; ie a lower-numbered slot) than the CPU. I thought the Unibus
adapter went below the CPU. However, I've only met an 11/84 once, and
that was a long time ago, so I can't be sure about the Unibus adapter
placement.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
15 May
15 May
1 a.m.
On Mon, 14 May 2007, Pete Turnbull wrote:
On 14/05/2007 21:02, Roger Ivie wrote:
It's been a long time for me, too. You could be right.
--
roger ivie
rivie at ridgenet.net
The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The
memory was in the slots
between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU
board using a private memory interconnect protocol.
It doesn't need a ribbon cable, but PMI uses the CD-interconnect instead of
the QBus, and the memory has to be in a higher slot (physically, that is; ie
a lower-numbered slot) than the CPU. I thought the Unibus adapter went below
the CPU. However, I've only met an 11/84 once, and that was a long time ago,
so I can't be sure about the Unibus adapter placement. 
5:44 a.m.
Roger Ivie wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2007, Pete Turnbull wrote:
I think you're both right. There are 2 different 11/84 chassis. If
I remember right, one has the Qbus-Unibus adapter in the far-end slot,
and the other is between the Qbus and Unibus slots.
It's been a while since I had either one open, though, so I might be
smoking crack.
Doc
On 14/05/2007 21:02, Roger Ivie wrote:
It's been a long time for me, too. You could be right. The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The
memory was in the slots
between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU
board using a private memory interconnect protocol.
It doesn't need a ribbon cable, but PMI uses the CD-interconnect
instead of the QBus, and the memory has to be in a higher slot
(physically, that is; ie a lower-numbered slot) than the CPU. I
thought the Unibus adapter went below the CPU. However, I've only met
an 11/84 once, and that was a long time ago, so I can't be sure about
the Unibus adapter placement.
14 May
14 May
8:20 p.m.
On 14/05/2007 09:01, Rod Smallwood wrote:
All of your points are well made. One is very
important the KDJ11-EB has
its memory on the CPU board. Are you saying some models of the KDJ11 do
not have their memory on the CPU board? Is it a case of unpopulated
sockets and add memory or is it no sockets and no memory?
KDJ11-E (M8981) is a quad-height board used in 11/93 and 11/94, running
at 18MHz, with up to 4MB of RAM on board. It also has a floating point
processor, boot ROMs, line time clock, and 8(?) serial ports.
KDJ11-D (M7554) is a quad-height board used in 11/53, usually running at
15MHz, with either 512KB or 1.5MB of RAM, boot ROMs, LTC, and 2 SLUs.
It's one of the slowest KDJ11s; the 11/53 was meant as a low-cost
system. The same board, but with different ROMs and different handles
(KDJ11-S), was used in some tabletop systems.
KDJ11-B (M8190) is a quad-height board with no RAM (and no sockets for
it), but with boot ROMs, LTC, and 2 SLUs. It was available as 15MHz for
the 11/73, and 18MHz for the 11/83 and 11/84. 18MHz versions normally
included the FPJ11 floating point processor chip; 15MHz usually merely
had the socket; some early 15MHz versions won't accept an FPJ11 chip.
These boards will work with PMI memory as well as with ordinary QBus memory.
KDJ11-A (M8192) is a dual-height board clocked at 15MHz, with no RAM,
boot ROMs, LTC, SLUs, or other embellishments. In other words, it's
just a CPU. Used in a few 11/73S systems, as an OEM board, and for
11/23 upgrades. Early revisions won't accept an FPJ11 chip.
See Micronotes 25, 30, and 39.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
6448
days inactive
6449
days old
5 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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doc＠mdrconsult.com -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
rivie＠ridgenet.net -
RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk