I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least. Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles". See below for the explanation... [...] I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what they have for sale. It is basically advertising. None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books, clocks, whatever. Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are, a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry. This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse. Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it happen in two related instances. Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric 205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well, free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept thru in school. There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead? In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun" and having a super collection is that people expect them to be authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare is basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or computers. Most like to "show off" more than just what they purchased. In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes, and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate. Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? *no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians. William Donzelli aw288(a)osfn.org