14 Jun
2015
14 Jun
'15
12:47 p.m.
Last week while bored and browsing eBay looking at things that are ending soon something I
had never heard of caught my eye: an Altos ACS 8000-15A. I looked at the pictures and
googled the brand and model and it didn?t seem to be a very common computer and there were
no bids on the item so I put in a fairly low bid. I ended up winning! :-)
The seller asked if it would be ok to bring the item to me the next time he was in my
area. I figured that was fine since I was concerned that since it has a large 8? hard
drive in it that it would be more likely to be damaged in shipping. I actually didn?t even
need to wait very long! Friday he set out to drive across 2 states and dropped off the
computer at my front door on Saturday morning. Talk about excellent service!
I buy lots of untested items on eBay and usually they work just fine. But luck hasn?t held
for me this time and so far the Altos doesn?t work. I can hear the drives spin up and all
the voltages from the DC power supply are perfect. But nothing spits out on the Console 1
RS232 port. From what I understand the serial ports are wired DTE (which seems odd since
you use it with terminals) and so I?m using a null modem adapter. Although with the null
modem or without I get nothing.
Anyways, I posted an album with lots of pictures here:
http://imgur.com/a/9X8Gh
Yay another project for me to fix! :-)
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14 Jun
14 Jun
1:14 p.m.
Nice find! I have a vague recollection of doing repairs on something similar that was
used as a Unix machine to run cash registers at a pharmacy during the late 80s. Sure looks
familiar. Any idea what it runs?
Ian
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 14, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Chris Osborn
<fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
Last week while bored and browsing eBay looking at things that are ending soon something
I had never heard of caught my eye: an Altos ACS 8000-15A. I looked at the pictures and
googled the brand and model and it didn?t seem to be a very common computer and there were
no bids on the item so I put in a fairly low bid. I ended up winning! :-)
The seller asked if it would be ok to bring the item to me the next time he was in my
area. I figured that was fine since I was concerned that since it has a large 8? hard
drive in it that it would be more likely to be damaged in shipping. I actually didn?t even
need to wait very long! Friday he set out to drive across 2 states and dropped off the
computer at my front door on Saturday morning. Talk about excellent service!
I buy lots of untested items on eBay and usually they work just fine. But luck hasn?t
held for me this time and so far the Altos doesn?t work. I can hear the drives spin up and
all the voltages from the DC power supply are perfect. But nothing spits out on the
Console 1 RS232 port. From what I understand the serial ports are wired DTE (which seems
odd since you use it with terminals) and so I?m using a null modem adapter. Although with
the null modem or without I get nothing.
Anyways, I posted an album with lots of pictures here:
http://imgur.com/a/9X8Gh
Yay another project for me to fix! :-)
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1:33 p.m.
On Jun 14, 2015, at 1:14 PM, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
Nice find! I have a vague recollection of doing
repairs on something similar that was used as a Unix machine to run cash registers at a
pharmacy during the late 80s. Sure looks familiar. Any idea what it runs?
Apparently it can run CP/M, MP/M, or something called Oasis. At the moment it doesn?t run
anything. :-)
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2 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
,,, Altos ACS 8000-15A... nothing spits out on the
Console 1 RS232 port. From
what I understand the serial ports are wired DTE (which seems odd since you
use it with terminals) and so I?m using a null modem adapter. Although with
the null modem or without I get nothing.
I wouldn't assume anything with serial ports, especially vintage ones.
Look into getting a "traffic light" that displays state on LEDs either
in red or red/green (depending on how old/expensive the traffic light
- I have both kinds). The "easy" way to sniff out a connection with
one is to plug the traffic light into only one side of your connection
and see which lines are active, then unplug that and plug it only into
the other side and see which lines are active. If you have your
null-modem/no-null-modem swaps right, the active lines will be
complementary on each side. If, say, RxD is active on both, you'll
need a null modem. When you have it right, you should see lights
blink when one side or the other is trying to talk. Choosing a baud
rate slower than 9600 bps makes it easier to see.
Also, some hardware needs hardware flow control present and working.
Newer stuff is fast enough that mostly, people just do 3-wire serial
(RxD, TxD, and GND), but stuff from the 1970s is expecting CTS and RTS
and all that to do the proper things. Sometimes, you can just wire up
the computer side to always have CTS active and things will work fine
since the computer/terminal side can keep up and doesn't have to
throttle one character at a time. Frequently, this requirement can be
enabled/disabled with jumpers or software settings on the computer
side, but if not, you might need a custom console cable.
This is part of the joy of serial comms. If you aren't used to
debugging line speeds and parity bits and null-padding chars and
hardware handshake lines, it can get very frustrating when you try to
connect two devices and they won't talk. By the mid-90s, when most
serial comms were relegated to various types of modems, many of the
earlier limitations were no longer important, but the further back you
go, the more parameters you had to get right before traffic flowed.
-ethan
2:09 p.m.
On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn't assume anything with serial ports,
especially vintage ones.
Look into getting a "traffic light" that displays state on LEDs
Back in college in the HP lab we had these really nice RS232 breakout boxes with jumper
pins and LEDs that were in a sort of pink case. While I used them all the time I can no
longer remember who made them or find anything close.
Also, some hardware needs hardware flow control
present and working.
Newer stuff is fast enough that mostly, people just do 3-wire serial
(RxD, TxD, and GND), but stuff from the 1970s is expecting CTS and RTS
and all that to do the proper things.
The manual says that it uses DTR for flow control and doesn?t mention DSR, so I suspect
it?s a one-way thing like the HP terminals and only tells the other end to stop and will
send whenever it wants without checking if it?s ok.
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2:18 p.m.
On 06/14/2015 02:09 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
Back in college in the HP lab we had these really nice
RS232 breakout
boxes with jumper pins and LEDs that were in a sort of pink case.
While I used them all the time I can no longer remember who made them
or find anything close.
They're still very much around. I recommend those as well as the LED
monitor gizmos that tells you what the signal lines are doing. Here's a
place with a supply of inexpensive stuff:
http://www.cableleader.com/
--Chuck
2:28 p.m.
On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
They're still very much around. I recommend those
as well as the LED monitor gizmos that tells you what the signal lines are doing.
I know companies still make RS232 breakout boxes, I?ve just never seen any that were as
nice as the ones I used back in college.
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2:51 p.m.
On 06/14/2015 02:28 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
How much do you want to spend? There still are very many breakout boxes
being made. For example:
http://www.rs232bob.com/Products/
--Chuck
They're still very much around. I recommend
those as well as the
LED monitor gizmos that tells you what the signal lines are doing.
I know companies still make RS232 breakout boxes, I?ve just never
seen any that were as nice as the ones I used back in college. 
6:38 p.m.
You can get a whole HP 4957 these days for only $25 or so... it takes up a
bit more space than a plain BoB but you get a lot more functionality :O
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 06/14/2015 02:28 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
They're still very much around. I recommend those as well as the
How much do you want to spend? There still are very many breakout boxes
being made. For example:
http://www.rs232bob.com/Products/
--Chuck
LED monitor gizmos that tells you what the signal
lines are doing.
I know companies still make RS232 breakout boxes, I?ve just never
seen any that were as nice as the ones I used back in college.
15 Jun
15 Jun
7:56 a.m.
On Jun 14, 2015, at 18:38, Sean Caron <scaron at
umich.edu> wrote:
You can get a whole HP 4957 these days for only $25 or so... it takes up a
bit more space than a plain BoB but you get a lot more functionality :O
I recently bought an HP 4952A protocol analyzer for $70. There were ones listed at least
as low as $37, but I picked one that had all of the accessories, cables and disks that I
would have pieced together otherwise. It has been handy for debugging communications
between my VAX-11/730 and tu58em. All I had to do was to build a Y cable for the RJ45
modular cabling that I'm gradually converting all of my RS232 cabling over to, and
some test pins to plug into the recessed breakout connections so I could hook an
oscilloscope up easily.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
14 Jun
14 Jun
3:43 p.m.
On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
If you have your null-modem/no-null-modem swaps right,
the active
lines will be complementary on each side.
Traced the console port back to the 1488 that it?s connected to, and also determined that
the Altos *is* wired as DCE which makes more sense to connect to terminals. The 1488 is
connected to a Z80 DART. Got out the logic probe and the input to the 1488 just stays
high.
Guess I need to start actually looking at the schematics. :-)
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15 Jun
15 Jun
1:52 p.m.
Found a single 2716 EPROM on the Altos and pulled it out and read it in with my MiniPro
TL866CS and it comes back as entirely 00. Since that seemed pretty odd I grabbed another
2716 out of an old Nintendo board and it reads fine, so I'm pretty sure the TL866CS
can read 2716.
I have a feeling the Altos isn't going to work without proper data on the EPROM. :-) I
guest the first challenge is getting a copy of what the ROM is supposed to contain, and
the second will be burning it. Anyone happen to have an image of the ROM for an Altos 8500
board?
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1:56 p.m.
All zeroes is really strange - a blank EPROM is all ones, so it?s not that it got exposed
to UV light.
Ian
On Jun 15, 2015, at 1:52 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx
at fozztexx.com> wrote:
Found a single 2716 EPROM on the Altos and pulled it out and read it in with my MiniPro
TL866CS and it comes back as entirely 00. Since that seemed pretty odd I grabbed another
2716 out of an old Nintendo board and it reads fine, so I'm pretty sure the TL866CS
can read 2716.
I have a feeling the Altos isn't going to work without proper data on the EPROM. :-)
I guest the first challenge is getting a copy of what the ROM is supposed to contain, and
the second will be burning it. Anyone happen to have an image of the ROM for an Altos 8500
board?
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2:19 p.m.
On Jun 15, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
All zeroes is really strange - a blank EPROM is all
ones, so it?s not that it got exposed to UV light.
It definitely does seem strange. I wonder if maybe it?s a TI style 2716? It?s a National
Semiconductor MM2716Q.
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2:36 p.m.
The NatSemi MM2716Q is definitely the ?normal? single rail EPROM. The TMS2716 is the TI
version that is 3-rail. A quick test would be to measure pin 19 in circuit. If this is
12v, then it?s expecting a TI part.
Does your reader have any other ?brands? of 2716 you could try? What about trying to read
it as a 2732? Looking at the pinouts it looks like the only difference is pin 21 which is
Vpp (programming voltage) on a 2716 and A11 on a 2732. You?ll get a 4k buffer but
hopefully half of it will have your data?
Ian
On Jun 15, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx
at fozztexx.com> wrote:
On Jun 15, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
All zeroes is really strange - a blank EPROM is
all ones, so it?s not that it got exposed to UV light.
It definitely does seem strange. I wonder if maybe it?s a TI style 2716? It?s a National
Semiconductor MM2716Q.
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2:52 p.m.
On Jun 15, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
Does your reader have any other ?brands? of 2716 you
could try? What about trying to read it as a 2732? Looking at the pinouts it looks like
the only difference is pin 21 which is Vpp (programming voltage) on a 2716 and A11 on a
2732. You?ll get a 4k buffer but hopefully half of it will have your data?
I tried telling the reader I had several other brands of 2716 just to see if it made any
difference, but it's always a buffer full of 00. Tried it as a 2732 and same thing.
I'm sure the reader works with 2716 since I had no problem reading the 2716 from the
Nintendo board.
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21 Jun
21 Jun
8:43 a.m.
Thanks to Josh Dersch I now have a good copy of the ROM for the Altos 8500 boards. I?ve
put it up online here:
http://retrobattlestations.com/Altos/Altos-8000-8500.rom
I burned it and popped it in but my Altos still doesn?t come up. Nothing is output on
console 1. I?ll have to start walking through everything and check if the Z80 is getting
clock, see if it?s running, and so on. I?m sure I can get it fixed, it?s just going to be
more work. :-)
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10 Jul
10 Jul
7:42 p.m.
A couple of things.
Firstly, I noticed that my Mini-Pro could only read SOME of the 2716's I
had, not all of them. So, just because it read as zeros might not mean
it really is.
Secondly, there is a 2K bit Altos-related ROM available at
http://toastytech.com/files/ancientroms.html
There is a link to a zip file. Look for the one labeled ALTOS.ROM in
the zip file - is is the right size (2K Bits). It is "Monitor Version
6.05" - but it looks like is for a system that could have a hard disk.
I have an Altos 8000-2 (double density) that I just acquired off eBay
that is in a similar state - no floppy activity, nothing on the
terminal. But I was able to dump its rom with an 8K Bytesaver - haven't
disassembled it yet.
If you weren't aware, Doc on the 8000 series is available at
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/altos . But I don't think it covers the 8500.
JRJ
On 6/21/2015 10:43 AM, Chris Osborn wrote:
Thanks to Josh Dersch I now have a good copy of the
ROM for the Altos 8500 boards. I?ve put it up online here:
http://retrobattlestations.com/Altos/Altos-8000-8500.rom
I burned it and popped it in but my Altos still doesn?t come up. Nothing is output on
console 1. I?ll have to start walking through everything and check if the Z80 is getting
clock, see if it?s running, and so on. I?m sure I can get it fixed, it?s just going to be
more work. :-)
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7:50 p.m.
New subject: Altos ACS 8000-7 (8200) mainboard wanted / Shugart 4008 motor pulley
Long story, but....
I recently acquired an Altos ACS 8000-2 with an 8100-01 mainboard (which
currently is not functioning). Acquired it on eBay where it was
represented as an ACS-8000-7, along with an Altos 8000-7A 29MB hard disk
(a Shugart 4008). The hard disk was fine, but the computer wasn't the
one shown in the photo. (I arranged for a partial refund. At least the
disk was the one in the photo. ;) ).
I was wondering if anyone had an 8200 mainboard (the one with the logic
for the hard disk on it) that they would be willing to sell at an
affordable price?
Also, I have a second Shugart 4008 hard disk, but it was configured for
50Hz - so the motor pulley is the wrong size. Anyone out there have a
dead 4008 that they would be willing to have part with its motor pulley
and belt (and get the 50Hz set in return)? (For example, I saw a
posting on youtube with a wobbly platter set that probably is a good
candidate... ;) ).
Any tips on troubleshooting the mainboard on a double density Altos 8000
computer (mainboard 8100) would also be appreciated. I have already
reseated the chips, polished the tarnish off some chips the apparently
had silver-plated pins, etc., to no avail. Have dumped the ROM (2708).
Next plan is to disassemble that, and slap a logic analyzer on "J2"
which has all of the bus signals on it.
Thanks in advance...
JRJ
8:05 p.m.
New subject: Altos ACS 8000-7 (8200) mainboard wanted / Shugart 4008 motor pulley
On 7/10/2015 7:50 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Long story, but....
I recently acquired an Altos ACS 8000-2 with an 8100-01 mainboard (which
currently is not functioning). Acquired it on eBay where it was
represented as an ACS-8000-7, along with an Altos 8000-7A 29MB hard disk
(a Shugart 4008). The hard disk was fine, but the computer wasn't the
one shown in the photo. (I arranged for a partial refund. At least the
disk was the one in the photo. ;) ).
I was wondering if anyone had an 8200 mainboard (the one with the logic
for the hard disk on it) that they would be willing to sell at an
affordable price?
Also, I have a second Shugart 4008 hard disk, but it was configured for
50Hz - so the motor pulley is the wrong size. Anyone out there have a
dead 4008 that they would be willing to have part with its motor pulley
and belt (and get the 50Hz set in return)? (For example, I saw a
posting on youtube with a wobbly platter set that probably is a good
candidate... ;) ).
Any tips on troubleshooting the mainboard on a double density Altos 8000
computer (mainboard 8100) would also be appreciated. I have already
reseated the chips, polished the tarnish off some chips the apparently
had silver-plated pins, etc., to no avail. Have dumped the ROM (2708).
Next plan is to disassemble that, and slap a logic analyzer on "J2"
which has all of the bus signals on it.
Thanks in advance...
JRJ
This is why i collect cpu emulators. I have almost every kind made. I do
however need some jumper headers for a 68000 HMI unit
thats set for 68008 mode but thats another story.
what main CPU does this use, 8080 or a Z80 or ???
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11 Jul
11 Jul
8:32 a.m.
New subject: Altos ACS 8000-7 (8200) mainboard wanted / Shugart 4008 motor pulley
I use emulators as well, and have written some, but I also enjoy working
with the real hardware.
The Altos ACS-8000 series are all Z80's .
JRJ
On 7/10/2015 10:05 PM, wulfman wrote:
On 7/10/2015 7:50 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Long story, but....
I recently acquired an Altos ACS 8000-2 with an 8100-01 mainboard (which
currently is not functioning). Acquired it on eBay where it was
represented as an ACS-8000-7, along with an Altos 8000-7A 29MB hard disk
(a Shugart 4008). The hard disk was fine, but the computer wasn't the
one shown in the photo. (I arranged for a partial refund. At least the
disk was the one in the photo. ;) ).
I was wondering if anyone had an 8200 mainboard (the one with the logic
for the hard disk on it) that they would be willing to sell at an
affordable price?
Also, I have a second Shugart 4008 hard disk, but it was configured for
50Hz - so the motor pulley is the wrong size. Anyone out there have a
dead 4008 that they would be willing to have part with its motor pulley
and belt (and get the 50Hz set in return)? (For example, I saw a
posting on youtube with a wobbly platter set that probably is a good
candidate... ;) ).
Any tips on troubleshooting the mainboard on a double density Altos 8000
computer (mainboard 8100) would also be appreciated. I have already
reseated the chips, polished the tarnish off some chips the apparently
had silver-plated pins, etc., to no avail. Have dumped the ROM (2708).
Next plan is to disassemble that, and slap a logic analyzer on "J2"
which has all of the bus signals on it.
Thanks in advance...
JRJ
This is why i collect cpu emulators. I have almost every kind made. I do
however need some jumper headers for a 68000 HMI unit
thats set for 68008 mode but thats another story.
what main CPU does this use, 8080 or a Z80 or ???
12:26 p.m.
New subject: ROM Request: Altos ACS 8000 models with 8000 or 8100 logic board
In working on my ACS 8000-2, I managed to dump the ROM and started
disassembling it, and almost immediately came up with something strange
(see below). As a result, it is not surprising the machine is totally
confused.
If anyone has an Altos ACS 8000, models 1 thru 4 or 1S thru 4S, that is,
an Altos 8000 with an 8000 or 8100 circuit board, I would really
appreciate a dump of the ROM, as mine either has a coding error (in
which case there could be more) or a bit pick (in which case there could
be more) or some kind of flat-out bug.
Even a paper listing would be just fine. I have at least two different
ways I ought to be able to program a 2708 if I need to (and I almost
certainly do).
Below is what I found, right at the start of my ROM. The oddness is
that the Stack Pointer, which is used to do pop values into BC for the
port and byte count for a series of OTIR commands is initialized by the
code to point at 0x35E. Data for these commands starts at 036E. The
iteration count for the overall loop is 0x0A (10 decimal).
Here is the problem: given where the stack starts, 0x35E, that is used
to pop successive port/bytecount pairs into BC, there is only room for 8
of them before it gets to 0x36E, and the data there is clearly NOT part
of the port/bytecount pairs pattern.
So, it seems that one of the following is true:
- The iteration count has a bit pick and should be 08 instead of 0A
- The starting stack pointer has a bit pick, and should be
0x35A instead of 0x35E
- There is a coding error (essentially equivalent to the first choice)
There is some evidence to support any of these possible choices, though
right now it seems most likely that the iteration count of 0x0A really
should be 0x08. If someone has a known good ACS 8000 ROM image, then I
could sort it out more easily.
Anyway, given this, it is no wonder the machine is getting confused.
Thanks in advance.
JRJ
Input file: test.bin
0000 ED5E im 2 ; Set Interrupt Mode 2
;
; Initialization outputs
;
; Port 0A 5 bytes (PIO Y2 Channel A)
; Port 0B 5 bytes (PIO Y2 Channel B)
; Port 12 5 bytes (PIO Y4 Channel A)
; port 13 2 bytes (PIO Y4 Channel B)
; port 0C 3 bytes (Console Baud Rate, Y3 CTC CH0)
; port 0E 2 bytes (Printer Baud Rate, JX CTC CH2)
; port 1D 6 bytes (SIO Channel A - Console - Y7)
; port 1F 6 bytes (SIO Channel B - Printer - Y7)
;
0002 216E03 ld hl,0x036E ; HL <- 0x36E
0005 315E03 ld sp,0x035E ; SP <- 0x35E
0008 160A ld d,0x0A ; D <- 0x0A
000A C1 pop bc ; BC <- (SP)
000B EDB3 otir ; Output, as described above
;
; In "peudo C", the otir instruction would do:
;
; do {
; output(C,*HL++);
; } until(--B == 0);
;
000D 15 dec d ; Total iterations, 0x0A (10) times
000E 20FA jr nz,0x000A
;
; Done with initializations
;
0010 FB ei ; Turn on interrupts
0011 31FF3F ld sp,0x3FFF ; Real SP initialization
; for RAM during boot,
; Bit 10 MUST be a '1'
0014 3E00 ld a,0x00 ; A <- 0
... Left out the rest of the disassembly
0357 FB ei
0358 ED4D reti
;
; Data appears to begin here.
;
035A 04 inc b
035B 08 ex af,af'
035C 1020 djnz 0x037E
035E 0A ld a,(bc)
035F 05 dec b
0360 0B dec bc
0361 05 dec b
0362 12 ld (de),a
0363 05 dec b
0364 13 inc de
0365 02 ld (bc),a
0366 0C inc c
0367 03 inc bc
0368 0E02 ld c,0x02
036A 1D dec e
036B 061F ld b,0x1F
036D 06CF ld b,0xCF
036F 42 ld b,d
0370 5E ld e,(hl)
0371 37 scf
0372 BF cp a
0373 CF rst 0x08
0374 FC6A37 call m,0x376A
0377 FECF cp 0xCF
0379 F8 ret m
037A 6C ld l,h
037B 37 scf
037C DF rst 0x18
037D 0F rrca
037E 03 inc bc
037F 47 ld b,a
0380 0D dec c
0381 60 ld h,b
0382 07 rlca
0383 34 inc (hl)
0384 04 inc b
0385 44 ld b,h
0386 03 inc bc
0387 E1 pop hl
0388 05 dec b
0389 EA0444 jp pe,0x4404
038C 03 inc bc
038D E1 pop hl
038E 05 dec b
038F EA3031 jp pe,0x3130
7:46 p.m.
New subject: ROM Request: Altos ACS 8000 models with 8000 or 8100 logic board
An update: Although I still expect there is an issue with that loop
count of 10 (0x0A), I went ahead and stuck my logic analyzer on it in
state mode just to see what, if anything, was going on.
The CPU is running and runs the program in the ROM as expected at first.
But the program gets to the point of location 0x13, and then goes awry.
Noticing that is just after interrupts are enabled, I suspect it is
taking an interrupt at a location it isn't expecting: in particular, it
seems to be vectoring through location 0, which of course was not
intended to be an interrupt vector. So, the CPU ends up fetching the
next instruction from address 0x5EED, which is a 0xFF - uninitialized
RAM, actually - which to a Z80 is a rst 0x38 - which is where the
program picks up again.
So, either it should not be interrupting, or whatever is interrupting is
not placing the correct 8 bits of the interrupt vector there for the
CPU, so it ends up in the wrong place.
But, at least I have something to go on.
JRJ
On 7/11/2015 2:26 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
In working on my ACS 8000-2, I managed to dump the ROM
and started
disassembling it, and almost immediately came up with something strange
(see below). As a result, it is not surprising the machine is totally
confused.
If anyone has an Altos ACS 8000, models 1 thru 4 or 1S thru 4S, that is,
an Altos 8000 with an 8000 or 8100 circuit board, I would really
appreciate a dump of the ROM, as mine either has a coding error (in
which case there could be more) or a bit pick (in which case there could
be more) or some kind of flat-out bug.
Even a paper listing would be just fine. I have at least two different
ways I ought to be able to program a 2708 if I need to (and I almost
certainly do).
Below is what I found, right at the start of my ROM. The oddness is
that the Stack Pointer, which is used to do pop values into BC for the
port and byte count for a series of OTIR commands is initialized by the
code to point at 0x35E. Data for these commands starts at 036E. The
iteration count for the overall loop is 0x0A (10 decimal).
Here is the problem: given where the stack starts, 0x35E, that is used
to pop successive port/bytecount pairs into BC, there is only room for 8
of them before it gets to 0x36E, and the data there is clearly NOT part
of the port/bytecount pairs pattern.
So, it seems that one of the following is true:
- The iteration count has a bit pick and should be 08 instead of 0A
- The starting stack pointer has a bit pick, and should be
0x35A instead of 0x35E
- There is a coding error (essentially equivalent to the first choice)
There is some evidence to support any of these possible choices, though
right now it seems most likely that the iteration count of 0x0A really
should be 0x08. If someone has a known good ACS 8000 ROM image, then I
could sort it out more easily.
Anyway, given this, it is no wonder the machine is getting confused.
Thanks in advance.
JRJ
Input file: test.bin
0000 ED5E im 2 ; Set Interrupt Mode 2
;
; Initialization outputs
;
; Port 0A 5 bytes (PIO Y2 Channel A)
; Port 0B 5 bytes (PIO Y2 Channel B)
; Port 12 5 bytes (PIO Y4 Channel A)
; port 13 2 bytes (PIO Y4 Channel B)
; port 0C 3 bytes (Console Baud Rate, Y3 CTC CH0)
; port 0E 2 bytes (Printer Baud Rate, JX CTC CH2)
; port 1D 6 bytes (SIO Channel A - Console - Y7)
; port 1F 6 bytes (SIO Channel B - Printer - Y7)
;
0002 216E03 ld hl,0x036E ; HL <- 0x36E
0005 315E03 ld sp,0x035E ; SP <- 0x35E
0008 160A ld d,0x0A ; D <- 0x0A
000A C1 pop bc ; BC <- (SP)
000B EDB3 otir ; Output, as described above
;
; In "peudo C", the otir instruction would do:
;
; do {
; output(C,*HL++);
; } until(--B == 0);
;
000D 15 dec d ; Total iterations, 0x0A (10) times
000E 20FA jr nz,0x000A
;
; Done with initializations
;
0010 FB ei ; Turn on interrupts
0011 31FF3F ld sp,0x3FFF ; Real SP initialization
; for RAM during boot,
; Bit 10 MUST be a '1'
0014 3E00 ld a,0x00 ; A <- 0
... Left out the rest of the disassembly
0357 FB ei
0358 ED4D reti
;
; Data appears to begin here.
;
035A 04 inc b
035B 08 ex af,af'
035C 1020 djnz 0x037E
035E 0A ld a,(bc)
035F 05 dec b
0360 0B dec bc
0361 05 dec b
0362 12 ld (de),a
0363 05 dec b
0364 13 inc de
0365 02 ld (bc),a
0366 0C inc c
0367 03 inc bc
0368 0E02 ld c,0x02
036A 1D dec e
036B 061F ld b,0x1F
036D 06CF ld b,0xCF
036F 42 ld b,d
0370 5E ld e,(hl)
0371 37 scf
0372 BF cp a
0373 CF rst 0x08
0374 FC6A37 call m,0x376A
0377 FECF cp 0xCF
0379 F8 ret m
037A 6C ld l,h
037B 37 scf
037C DF rst 0x18
037D 0F rrca
037E 03 inc bc
037F 47 ld b,a
0380 0D dec c
0381 60 ld h,b
0382 07 rlca
0383 34 inc (hl)
0384 04 inc b
0385 44 ld b,h
0386 03 inc bc
0387 E1 pop hl
0388 05 dec b
0389 EA0444 jp pe,0x4404
038C 03 inc bc
038D E1 pop hl
038E 05 dec b
038F EA3031 jp pe,0x3130
12 Jul
12 Jul
6:40 p.m.
New subject: ROM Request: Altos ACS 8000 models with 8000 or 8100 logic board
Further update. The Z80-A CTC appears to be the culprit. The logic
analyzer told me that INT# was being asserted (active low) right out of
the gate. Removal of the chips that connect to INT# and inserting them
one at a time until the symptom re-appeared revealed the CTC chip as
having a problem. And, if I bend the interrupt pin on the CTC out, the
ROM program proceeds further. The ROM code gets past the point where
the "%" should appears on the console - but it still does not appear.
But I figure that if the CTC is bad, it is not at all unlikely that the
clock going over to the SIO chip is wrong or even nonexistant. Plus, a
later chunk of code loops forever waiting for transmitter buffer empty
from the SIO chip. (Check that tomorrow).
On 7/11/2015 9:46 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
An update: Although I still expect there is an issue
with that loop
count of 10 (0x0A), I went ahead and stuck my logic analyzer on it in
state mode just to see what, if anything, was going on.
The CPU is running and runs the program in the ROM as expected at first.
But the program gets to the point of location 0x13, and then goes awry.
Noticing that is just after interrupts are enabled, I suspect it is
taking an interrupt at a location it isn't expecting: in particular, it
seems to be vectoring through location 0, which of course was not
intended to be an interrupt vector. So, the CPU ends up fetching the
next instruction from address 0x5EED, which is a 0xFF - uninitialized
RAM, actually - which to a Z80 is a rst 0x38 - which is where the
program picks up again.
So, either it should not be interrupting, or whatever is interrupting is
not placing the correct 8 bits of the interrupt vector there for the
CPU, so it ends up in the wrong place.
But, at least I have something to go on.
JRJ
On 7/11/2015 2:26 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
In working on my ACS 8000-2, I managed to dump
the ROM and started
disassembling it, and almost immediately came up with something strange
(see below). As a result, it is not surprising the machine is totally
confused.
If anyone has an Altos ACS 8000, models 1 thru 4 or 1S thru 4S, that is,
an Altos 8000 with an 8000 or 8100 circuit board, I would really
appreciate a dump of the ROM, as mine either has a coding error (in
which case there could be more) or a bit pick (in which case there could
be more) or some kind of flat-out bug.
Even a paper listing would be just fine. I have at least two different
ways I ought to be able to program a 2708 if I need to (and I almost
certainly do).
Below is what I found, right at the start of my ROM. The oddness is
that the Stack Pointer, which is used to do pop values into BC for the
port and byte count for a series of OTIR commands is initialized by the
code to point at 0x35E. Data for these commands starts at 036E. The
iteration count for the overall loop is 0x0A (10 decimal).
Here is the problem: given where the stack starts, 0x35E, that is used
to pop successive port/bytecount pairs into BC, there is only room for 8
of them before it gets to 0x36E, and the data there is clearly NOT part
of the port/bytecount pairs pattern.
So, it seems that one of the following is true:
- The iteration count has a bit pick and should be 08 instead of 0A
- The starting stack pointer has a bit pick, and should be
0x35A instead of 0x35E
- There is a coding error (essentially equivalent to the first choice)
There is some evidence to support any of these possible choices, though
right now it seems most likely that the iteration count of 0x0A really
should be 0x08. If someone has a known good ACS 8000 ROM image, then I
could sort it out more easily.
Anyway, given this, it is no wonder the machine is getting confused.
Thanks in advance.
JRJ
Input file: test.bin
0000 ED5E im 2 ; Set Interrupt Mode 2
;
; Initialization outputs
;
; Port 0A 5 bytes (PIO Y2 Channel A)
; Port 0B 5 bytes (PIO Y2 Channel B)
; Port 12 5 bytes (PIO Y4 Channel A)
; port 13 2 bytes (PIO Y4 Channel B)
; port 0C 3 bytes (Console Baud Rate, Y3 CTC CH0)
; port 0E 2 bytes (Printer Baud Rate, JX CTC CH2)
; port 1D 6 bytes (SIO Channel A - Console - Y7)
; port 1F 6 bytes (SIO Channel B - Printer - Y7)
;
0002 216E03 ld hl,0x036E ; HL <- 0x36E
0005 315E03 ld sp,0x035E ; SP <- 0x35E
0008 160A ld d,0x0A ; D <- 0x0A
000A C1 pop bc ; BC <- (SP)
000B EDB3 otir ; Output, as described above
;
; In "peudo C", the otir instruction would do:
;
; do {
; output(C,*HL++);
; } until(--B == 0);
;
000D 15 dec d ; Total iterations, 0x0A (10) times
000E 20FA jr nz,0x000A
;
; Done with initializations
;
0010 FB ei ; Turn on interrupts
0011 31FF3F ld sp,0x3FFF ; Real SP initialization
; for RAM during boot,
; Bit 10 MUST be a '1'
0014 3E00 ld a,0x00 ; A <- 0
... Left out the rest of the disassembly
0357 FB ei
0358 ED4D reti
;
; Data appears to begin here.
;
035A 04 inc b
035B 08 ex af,af'
035C 1020 djnz 0x037E
035E 0A ld a,(bc)
035F 05 dec b
0360 0B dec bc
0361 05 dec b
0362 12 ld (de),a
0363 05 dec b
0364 13 inc de
0365 02 ld (bc),a
0366 0C inc c
0367 03 inc bc
0368 0E02 ld c,0x02
036A 1D dec e
036B 061F ld b,0x1F
036D 06CF ld b,0xCF
036F 42 ld b,d
0370 5E ld e,(hl)
0371 37 scf
0372 BF cp a
0373 CF rst 0x08
0374 FC6A37 call m,0x376A
0377 FECF cp 0xCF
0379 F8 ret m
037A 6C ld l,h
037B 37 scf
037C DF rst 0x18
037D 0F rrca
037E 03 inc bc
037F 47 ld b,a
0380 0D dec c
0381 60 ld h,b
0382 07 rlca
0383 34 inc (hl)
0384 04 inc b
0385 44 ld b,h
0386 03 inc bc
0387 E1 pop hl
0388 05 dec b
0389 EA0444 jp pe,0x4404
038C 03 inc bc
038D E1 pop hl
038E 05 dec b
038F EA3031 jp pe,0x3130
11 Jul
11 Jul
12:42 p.m.
New subject: Altos ACS 8000-7 (8200) mainboard wanted / Shugart 4008 motor pulley
no not a software emulator a hardware emulator you remove the Z80 and
plug in a cable
lets you step through the code test memory and run the board at full speed
hardware emulators are for the debugging of the hardware.
unlike software emulators that run on a host PC that let you run old
software
i have a ZAX Z80 emulator and a Applied microsystems Z80 emulator for
just that purpose
On 7/11/2015 8:32 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
I use emulators as well, and have written some, but I
also enjoy working
with the real hardware.
The Altos ACS-8000 series are all Z80's .
JRJ
On 7/10/2015 10:05 PM, wulfman wrote:
> On 7/10/2015 7:50 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> Long story, but....
>>
>> I recently acquired an Altos ACS 8000-2 with an 8100-01 mainboard (which
>> currently is not functioning). Acquired it on eBay where it was
>> represented as an ACS-8000-7, along with an Altos 8000-7A 29MB hard disk
>> (a Shugart 4008). The hard disk was fine, but the computer wasn't the
>> one shown in the photo. (I arranged for a partial refund. At least the
>> disk was the one in the photo. ;) ).
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone had an 8200 mainboard (the one with the logic
>> for the hard disk on it) that they would be willing to sell at an
>> affordable price?
>>
>> Also, I have a second Shugart 4008 hard disk, but it was configured for
>> 50Hz - so the motor pulley is the wrong size. Anyone out there have a
>> dead 4008 that they would be willing to have part with its motor pulley
>> and belt (and get the 50Hz set in return)? (For example, I saw a
>> posting on youtube with a wobbly platter set that probably is a good
>> candidate... ;) ).
>>
>> Any tips on troubleshooting the mainboard on a double density Altos 8000
>> computer (mainboard 8100) would also be appreciated. I have already
>> reseated the chips, polished the tarnish off some chips the apparently
>> had silver-plated pins, etc., to no avail. Have dumped the ROM (2708).
>> Next plan is to disassemble that, and slap a logic analyzer on "J2"
>> which has all of the bus signals on it.
>>
>> Thanks in advance...
>>
>> JRJ
>>
> This is why i collect cpu emulators. I have almost every kind made. I do
> however need some jumper headers for a 68000 HMI unit
> thats set for 68008 mode but thats another story.
>
>
> what main CPU does this use, 8080 or a Z80 or ???
>
>
>
--
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the
named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized
use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited
by
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sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.
2:49 p.m.
New subject: Altos ACS 8000-7 (8200) mainboard wanted / Shugart 4008 motor pulley
Oh, yeah I get it - an in circuit emulator. With my logic analyzer I
can also watch all the bus transactions (or directly on the CPU if needs
be) to see what is going on, as well.
I have an Intel MDS IV with an ICE for (IIRC) an 8051, but have never
used it for that purpose to date.
JRJ
On 7/11/2015 2:42 PM, wulfman wrote:
no not a software emulator a hardware emulator you
remove the Z80 and
plug in a cable
lets you step through the code test memory and run the board at full speed
hardware emulators are for the debugging of the hardware.
unlike software emulators that run on a host PC that let you run old
software
i have a ZAX Z80 emulator and a Applied microsystems Z80 emulator for
just that purpose
On 7/11/2015 8:32 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
I use emulators as well, and have written some,
but I also enjoy working
with the real hardware.
The Altos ACS-8000 series are all Z80's .
JRJ
On 7/10/2015 10:05 PM, wulfman wrote:
> On 7/10/2015 7:50 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> Long story, but....
>>
>> I recently acquired an Altos ACS 8000-2 with an 8100-01 mainboard (which
>> currently is not functioning). Acquired it on eBay where it was
>> represented as an ACS-8000-7, along with an Altos 8000-7A 29MB hard disk
>> (a Shugart 4008). The hard disk was fine, but the computer wasn't the
>> one shown in the photo. (I arranged for a partial refund. At least the
>> disk was the one in the photo. ;) ).
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone had an 8200 mainboard (the one with the logic
>> for the hard disk on it) that they would be willing to sell at an
>> affordable price?
>>
>> Also, I have a second Shugart 4008 hard disk, but it was configured for
>> 50Hz - so the motor pulley is the wrong size. Anyone out there have a
>> dead 4008 that they would be willing to have part with its motor pulley
>> and belt (and get the 50Hz set in return)? (For example, I saw a
>> posting on youtube with a wobbly platter set that probably is a good
>> candidate... ;) ).
>>
>> Any tips on troubleshooting the mainboard on a double density Altos 8000
>> computer (mainboard 8100) would also be appreciated. I have already
>> reseated the chips, polished the tarnish off some chips the apparently
>> had silver-plated pins, etc., to no avail. Have dumped the ROM (2708).
>> Next plan is to disassemble that, and slap a logic analyzer on "J2"
>> which has all of the bus signals on it.
>>
>> Thanks in advance...
>>
>> JRJ
>>
> This is why i collect cpu emulators. I have almost every kind made. I do
> however need some jumper headers for a 68000 HMI unit
> thats set for 68008 mode but thats another story.
>
>
> what main CPU does this use, 8080 or a Z80 or ???
>
>
>
5:33 p.m.
New subject: Altos ACS 8000-7 (8200) mainboard wanted / Shugart 4008 motor pulley
heh thats way more work than a plug in emulator
good luck on it
On 7/11/2015 2:49 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Oh, yeah I get it - an in circuit emulator. With my
logic analyzer I
can also watch all the bus transactions (or directly on the CPU if needs
be) to see what is going on, as well.
I have an Intel MDS IV with an ICE for (IIRC) an 8051, but have never
used it for that purpose to date.
JRJ
On 7/11/2015 2:42 PM, wulfman wrote:
> no not a software emulator a hardware emulator you remove the Z80 and
> plug in a cable
> lets you step through the code test memory and run the board at full speed
> hardware emulators are for the debugging of the hardware.
>
> unlike software emulators that run on a host PC that let you run old
> software
>
> i have a ZAX Z80 emulator and a Applied microsystems Z80 emulator for
> just that purpose
>
> On 7/11/2015 8:32 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> I use emulators as well, and have written some, but I also enjoy working
>> with the real hardware.
>>
>> The Altos ACS-8000 series are all Z80's .
>>
>> JRJ
>>
>> On 7/10/2015 10:05 PM, wulfman wrote:
>>> On 7/10/2015 7:50 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>>>> Long story, but....
>>>>
>>>> I recently acquired an Altos ACS 8000-2 with an 8100-01 mainboard (which
>>>> currently is not functioning). Acquired it on eBay where it was
>>>> represented as an ACS-8000-7, along with an Altos 8000-7A 29MB hard disk
>>>> (a Shugart 4008). The hard disk was fine, but the computer wasn't
the
>>>> one shown in the photo. (I arranged for a partial refund. At least the
>>>> disk was the one in the photo. ;) ).
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if anyone had an 8200 mainboard (the one with the logic
>>>> for the hard disk on it) that they would be willing to sell at an
>>>> affordable price?
>>>>
>>>> Also, I have a second Shugart 4008 hard disk, but it was configured for
>>>> 50Hz - so the motor pulley is the wrong size. Anyone out there have a
>>>> dead 4008 that they would be willing to have part with its motor pulley
>>>> and belt (and get the 50Hz set in return)? (For example, I saw a
>>>> posting on youtube with a wobbly platter set that probably is a good
>>>> candidate... ;) ).
>>>>
>>>> Any tips on troubleshooting the mainboard on a double density Altos 8000
>>>> computer (mainboard 8100) would also be appreciated. I have already
>>>> reseated the chips, polished the tarnish off some chips the apparently
>>>> had silver-plated pins, etc., to no avail. Have dumped the ROM (2708).
>>>> Next plan is to disassemble that, and slap a logic analyzer on
"J2"
>>>> which has all of the bus signals on it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>
>>>> JRJ
>>>>
>>> This is why i collect cpu emulators. I have almost every kind made. I do
>>> however need some jumper headers for a 68000 HMI unit
>>> thats set for 68008 mode but thats another story.
>>>
>>>
>>> what main CPU does this use, 8080 or a Z80 or ???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
--
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the
named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized
use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited
by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.
15 Jun
15 Jun
2:01 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
Found a single 2716 EPROM on the Altos and pulled it
out and read it in
with my MiniPro TL866CS and it comes back as entirely 00. Since that seemed
pretty odd I grabbed another 2716 out of an old Nintendo board and it reads
fine, so I'm pretty sure the TL866CS can read 2716.
I have a feeling the Altos isn't going to work without proper data on the
EPROM. :-) I guest the first challenge is getting a copy of what the ROM is
supposed to contain, and the second will be burning it. Anyone happen to
have an image of the ROM for an Altos 8500 board?
I have an ACS 8000-10 at home (which I believe is the same machine with a
smaller hard drive), let me see if I can read the EPROM out of it tonight...
- Josh
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
2:26 p.m.
On Jun 15, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
I have an ACS 8000-10 at home (which I believe is the
same machine with a
smaller hard drive), let me see if I can read the EPROM out of it tonight?
It actually might be essentially the same machine. From what I can tell the 15A originally
shipped with two 8? floppy drives. Somewhere along the line someone upgraded my 15A and
removed one of the floppies and replaced it with a 10 meg Shugart model 1004.
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
3450
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3479
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28 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
cclist＠sydex.com -
cube1＠charter.net -
derschjo＠gmail.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fozztexx＠fozztexx.com -
ian＠platinum.net -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
scaron＠umich.edu -
wulfman＠wulfman.com