14 Feb
1999
14 Feb
'99
7:57 p.m.
>> Yes but what's interesting is that the
bit-slice 4052 is software
>> compatible with the 6800 powered 4051!!! The 4052 is a 16 bit machine.
I'm
>> guessing that Tektronix used the bit slice CPU
so that they could
retain
the same software but gain the power of the 16 bit
system.
From what I recall (looking at Philip's 4052
service docs), the
instruction set is not identical. There's at least one 6800
instruction
missing on the 4052. claim the the 4052 and 4054 will run all the 4051
software.
Don't forget that at the user level, the 4050 series were BASIC machines.
Any BASIC program that would run on the 4051 would run on the 4052. Some
of the BASIC programs that needed ROM cartridges on the 4051 would run on
an unexpanded 4052.
Talking of BASIC, I think most of the cartridge ROMs were BASIC extensions.
Does the 4052 service manual give that level of
detail? The one for
the
4051 gives NO information on the CPU instruction set
other than what was
in
Not much detail, but it explains the addressing modes and lists the
instruction set (although it doesn't tell you what the instructions do).
It explains the CPU architecture, including the microcode format...
the Motorola 6800 brochure that's included in the
manual. Does the 4052
manual give the entry points of the software routines in the system ROM?
Alas, no. Not a thing. I wish it did!
The 4052 and 4054s also have a larger address range
and more memory,
that may also be why their ROMs won't work in the 4051.
In part. As I said earlier, I think "software compatibility" meant BASIC
software.
At the hardware
level, the 4052 is 16 bit. But the microcode implements
an 8 bit processor - the 16 bit operations are used for calculating
addresses only.
I wondered if they were using all 16 bits for data since they could use
the 8 bit 4051 ROMs. 
15 Feb
15 Feb
9:03 a.m.
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 Philip.Belben(a)PowerTech.co.uk wrote:
That's odd unless they (Tektronix) never used that instruction since they
And also that the command for direct access to machine code level was NOT
proffered to the customers. Some of the field guys would provide it to
customers that they liked, but it was not policy to do so. Certainly,
also, some of the more knowledgeable users hacked it.
Unfortunately, I have long since forgotten it :{
- don
>> Yes but what's interesting is that
the bit-slice 4052 is software
>> compatible with the 6800 powered 4051!!! The 4052 is a 16 bit machine.
I'm
>> guessing that Tektronix used the bit
slice CPU so that they could
retain
the same software but gain the power of the 16 bit
system.
From what I recall (looking at Philip's 4052
service docs), the
instruction set is not identical. There's at least one 6800
instruction
missing on the 4052. claim the the 4052 and 4054 will run all the 4051
software.
Don't forget that at the user level, the 4050 series were BASIC machines.
Any BASIC program that would run on the 4051 would run on the 4052. Some
of the BASIC programs that needed ROM cartridges on the 4051 would run on
an unexpanded 4052. Talking of BASIC, I think most of the cartridge ROMs
were BASIC extensions.
The memory management circuitry is a tour de force. Not only does it
handle 16 bit fetches on odd and even bytes, it will decide whether you are
addressing 8 bit wide or 16 bit wide memory and act accordingly. Really
lovely machine.
Yes, the 4052 ROM cartridges are 8 bits wide.
Philip.
Does the 4052 service manual give that level of
detail? The one for
the
4051 gives NO information on the CPU instruction
set other than what was
in
Not much detail, but it explains the addressing modes and lists the
instruction set (although it doesn't tell you what the instructions do).
It explains the CPU architecture, including the microcode format...
the Motorola 6800 brochure that's included in
the manual. Does the 4052
manual give the entry points of the software routines in the system ROM?
Alas, no. Not a thing. I wish it did!
The 4052 and 4054s also have a larger address
range and more memory,
that may also be why their ROMs won't work in the 4051.
In part. As I said earlier, I think "software compatibility" meant BASIC
software.
At the
hardware level, the 4052 is 16 bit. But the microcode implements
an 8 bit processor - the 16 bit operations are used for calculating
addresses only.
I wondered if they were using all 16 bits for data since they could use
the 8 bit 4051 ROMs. 
10:02 a.m.
New subject: New Stuff
I picked up a Northwest Instruments MicroAnalyst 2000 today with what
appears to be all the documentation. Not being familiar with it, is this
something that is still in use today, or is it another contribution to the
saving of vintage computers stuff?
Picked up the documentation for the Sharp PC-5000, and that included the
tech ref manual, SuperComm manual and software, SuperTools manual and
software, and copies of the SuperCalc 2 manual.
It looks like I have several copies of the documentation for the Datricon
ACS 09 Single Board Computer. If anyone has one of these boards (or
preferable extras!), I would be interested in picking one up. In any case,
if someone needs one of these manuals, let me know.
10:20 a.m.
New subject: New Stuff
I picked up a Northwest Instruments MicroAnalyst 2000 today with what
appears to be all the documentation. Not being familiar with it, is this
something that is still in use today, or is it another contribution to the
saving of vintage computers stuff?
I have one of those. It's a logic/bus analyzer tool. Did you
get any pods with it? If all you got was a box of boards and no
cables, you're missing some important stuff.
The company I got it from used it for M68K development and debugging
around 1984 and onward. We never could afford the fancier pods (68020, etc.)
so all of our designs were 16-bit-bus architecture.
-ethan
3:19 p.m.
New subject: New Stuff
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I went back and checked. There are a number of software disks, four pods
labeled "Interactive State Analyzer", ribbon cables, an IBM interface board,
a "State Analyzer Demo Board", and two versions of manuals. There is also a
stick of chips with a label saying Input Chips, and to keep spares as they
are sensitive to static damage. Haven't quite figured out why it was in
there, but there is an IBM UCSD P-System Runtime Support package version
IV.0. Just starting to make sure the disks are readable now.
I picked up a Northwest Instruments MicroAnalyst 2000 today with what
appears to be all the documentation. Not being familiar with it, is this
something that is still in use today, or is it another contribution to the
saving of vintage computers stuff?
I have one of those. It's a logic/bus analyzer tool. Did you
get any pods with it? If all you got was a box of boards and no
cables, you're missing some important stuff.
3:34 p.m.
New subject: New Stuff
You wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I went back and checked. There are a number of software disks, four pods
labeled "Interactive State Analyzer", ribbon cables, an IBM interface board,
a "State Analyzer Demo Board", and two versions of manuals. There is also a
stick of chips with a label saying Input Chips, and to keep spares as they
are sensitive to static damage. Haven't quite figured out why it was in
there, but there is an IBM UCSD P-System Runtime Support package version
IV.0. Just starting to make sure the disks are readable now.
The ISA card goes in a target machine. Mine is a PC-2 (5 slot 4.77MHz PC)
with a 15Mb disk. All it does is run the Northwest Instruments box. I
also have a pod that attaches to a 64-pin socket that has a 68000 chip
on the top and pins below. You pry out your 68K and stick this tower in
its place, and it traces the last 4096 bus accesses and disassembles the
code in real time. Quite a box, if you have all the components. I used
mine to prove to a hardware designer that his board was faulty (he swapped
UDS and LDS on the 68000 socket, preventing byte-reads from working).
-ethan
I picked up a Northwest Instruments MicroAnalyst 2000 today...
I have one of those. It's a logic/bus analyzer tool. Did you
get any pods with it?
3:55 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model III joystick available
At a recent hamfest, I chanced across an item that was interesting enough
to pick up on the hope that someone else can use it. It's a genuine Atari
brand joystick, P/N CX-40, in the box, with manual, for a TRS-80 Model III.
It has what appears to be a 40-pin edge connector on the end of the cable
and some discussion on the manual on how to program for it.
Any takers?
-ethan
16 Feb
16 Feb
7:40 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model III joystick available
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3:57 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model III joystick available
It's a
genuine Atari
brand joystick, P/N CX-40, in the box, with manual, for a TRS-80 Model III.
It has what appears to be a 40-pin edge connector on the end of the cable
Are you sure it's 40 pin and not 50 pin? The are (AFAIK) no 40 pin
connectors on a Model 3 (unlike the model 1 that uses them for
everything). The most likely places to plug a joystick in would be
the system bus (50
pin) or the printer port (which has 8 input lines on it), which is 34 pin.
Model 1:
The manual says to plug it into the "front left output port, sometimes
referred to as the "Screen Printer Port"", on Model 1's with an
Expansion
Interface. "For computers without an EI, plug the TRSSTICK on the port
on the back of the keyboard, near the reset button."
Model 3:
"Firmly push the connector onto the large 50 pin bus located in the center of
the bottom of the computer..."
Apparently, this is a Model I, not Model III joystick. My mistake. Thanks,
Tony, for bringing this up. The bulk of the manual is devoted to the
Model III, so I didn't even notice that it had the wrong number of pins to
fit.
-ethan
15 Feb
15 Feb
4:02 p.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
I just picked up an Apple ][c+ (enhanced ][c, w/3.5" internal floppy
and 4.0Mhz 65C02) with monitor, stand, mouse and two Imagewriter I printers
for the princely sum of $15, but lack modern software. All I have is a
couple of 5.25" DOS 3.3 floppies from my ][+ days. I know this thing works:
it boots and runs DOS 3.3; what I need is something a little newer.
Did Apple ever post ProDOS to the 'net like they have made older versions
of MacOS available? Does DOS 3.3 support 3.5" 800K floppies (probably not).
Is there a good repository for Apple ][ software on ftp somewhere?
Thanks. I've been out of the Apple ][ loop for 15 years. I used to make
my living programming kids games for it (company: Software Productions;
products: Micro Mother Goose, Micro Habitats, Alphabet Beasts and Company),
but I haven't used one since the company folded in 1984. In short: I'm
not an Apple ][ novice, but I am ignorant of semi-modern advances in the
Apple line.
Thanks,
-ethan
4:19 p.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
I just picked up an Apple ][c+ (enhanced ][c, w/3.5" internal floppy
and 4.0Mhz 65C02) with monitor, stand, mouse and two Imagewriter I printers
for the princely sum of $15, but lack modern software. All I have is a
couple of 5.25" DOS 3.3 floppies from my ][+ days. I know this thing works:
it boots and runs DOS 3.3; what I need is something a little newer.
Did Apple ever post ProDOS to the 'net like they have made older versions
of MacOS available? Does DOS 3.3 support 3.5" 800K floppies (probably not).
Is there a good repository for Apple ][ software on ftp somewhere?
Yes. ftp://ftp.apple.com/dts/aii/sys.soft/8bit.system.4.0.2/
You'll need some kind of modem software to transfer it from whatever machine
you download it from to the IIc, unless you have a mac and a 3.5 inch disk drive
for the IIc.
Thanks. I've been out of the Apple ][ loop for 15 years. I used to make
my living programming kids games for it (company: Software Productions;
products: Micro Mother Goose, Micro Habitats, Alphabet Beasts and Company),
but I haven't used one since the company folded in 1984. In short: I'm
not an Apple ][ novice, but I am ignorant of semi-modern advances in the
Apple line.
Thanks,
-ethan
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
4:52 p.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
> I just picked up an Apple ][c+ (enhanced ][c,
w/3.5" internal floppy
> and 4.0Mhz 65C02)...
Did Apple ever
post ProDOS to the 'net...
Yes. ftp://ftp.apple.com/dts/aii/sys.soft/8bit.system.4.0.2/ You'll need some kind of modem software to
transfer it from whatever machine
you download it from to the IIc, unless you have a mac and a 3.5 inch disk
drive for the IIc.
I have a Mac and as I said above, the IIc+ has an internal 3.5" drive (slot 5
equivalent).
On to conquer the mysteries of ProDOS.
-ethan
4:50 p.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Did Apple ever post ProDOS to the 'net like they
have made older versions
of MacOS available? Does DOS 3.3 support 3.5" 800K floppies (probably not).
Is there a good repository for Apple ][ software on ftp somewhere?
Yeah, try ftp.asimov.com. If you don't find what you are looking for, try
posting a help request on comp.sys.apple2.
Patches were made to allow DOS 3.3 to work with 3.5" drives, but ProDOS is
what you want for simplicity's sake. It'll automatically recognize the
drive and you can access it either by the volume name of the disk in the
drive or by explicitly indicating its slot and drive number (ie.
CAT,S5,D1).
Thanks. I've been out of the Apple ][ loop for 15
years. I used to make
my living programming kids games for it (company: Software Productions;
products: Micro Mother Goose, Micro Habitats, Alphabet Beasts and Company),
Sorry, never heard of them :)
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always hasslin' the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
4:56 p.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
Thanks.
I've been out of the Apple ][ loop for 15 years. I used to make
my living programming kids games for it (company: Software Productions;
products: Micro Mother Goose, Micro Habitats, Alphabet Beasts and Company),
Sorry, never heard of them :) 
16 Feb
16 Feb
4:41 a.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
At 10:02 PM 2/15/99 -0500, Ethan wrote:
I just picked up an Apple ][c+ (enhanced ][c, w/3.5" internal floppy
and 4.0Mhz 65C02) with monitor, stand, mouse and two Imagewriter I printers
for the princely sum of $15, but lack modern software.
Congradulations! I picked up one this weekend for $5 with two external 5
1/4" drives. I also got a 5 1/4" disk with ProDOS on it. i've booted it and
it works. If you can tell me how to format a disk on the 3.5" drive and
then copy the ProDOS to it, I'll make you a copy.
Not an Apple person,
Joe
All I have is a
couple of 5.25" DOS 3.3 floppies from my ][+ days.
I know this thing works:
it boots and runs DOS 3.3; what I need is something a little newer.
Did Apple ever post ProDOS to the 'net like they have made older versions
of MacOS available? Does DOS 3.3 support 3.5" 800K floppies (probably not).
Is there a good repository for Apple ][ software on ftp somewhere?
Thanks. I've been out of the Apple ][ loop for 15 years. I used to make
my living programming kids games for it (company: Software Productions;
products: Micro Mother Goose, Micro Habitats, Alphabet Beasts and Company),
but I haven't used one since the company folded in 1984. In short: I'm
not an Apple ][ novice, but I am ignorant of semi-modern advances in the
Apple line.
Thanks,
-ethan
6:39 a.m.
New subject: Latest find: Apple ][c+ w/no disks
On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
Congradulations! I picked up one this weekend for $5
with two external 5
1/4" drives. I also got a 5 1/4" disk with ProDOS on it. i've booted it
and
it works. If you can tell me how to format a disk on the 3.5" drive and
then copy the ProDOS to it, I'll make you a copy.
Joe, you'll need either the System Disk or a good ProDOS disk utility
program such as Copy II+. Apple stripped the format command from ProDOS
(whereas it was conveniently built-in to DOS 3.3) so you have to use a
separate utility to do so.
Both the System Disk and Copy II+ have format features. If I'm not
mistaken a company called Beagle Bros. made an add-on FORMAT command
(ProDOS was very extensible...it provided for adding
user-developed commands and device drivers).
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always hasslin' the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
15 Feb
15 Feb
11:15 a.m.
At 12:03 PM 2/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 Philip.Belben(a)PowerTech.co.uk
wrote:
they
And also that the command for direct access to machine code level was NOT
proffered to the customers. Some of the field guys would provide it to
customers that they liked, but it was not policy to do so. Certainly,
also, some of the more knowledgeable users hacked it.
Unfortunately, I have long since forgotten it :{
Arrggg! I can't believe you forgot that! That's like saying you found
the holy grail, then lost it!
Joe
>> Yes but what's interesting is that
the bit-slice 4052 is software
>> compatible with the 6800 powered 4051!!! The 4052 is a 16 bit machine.
I'm
>> guessing that Tektronix used the bit
slice CPU so that they could
retain
> the
same software but gain the power of the 16 bit system.
>From what I recall (looking at Philip's 4052 service docs), the
instruction set is not identical. There's at least one 6800 instruction
missing on the 4052.
That's odd unless they (Tektronix) never used that instruction since claim the the 4052 and 4054 will run all the 4051
software.
Don't forget that at the user level, the 4050 series were BASIC machines.
Any BASIC program that would run on the 4051 would run on the 4052. Some
of the BASIC programs that needed ROM cartridges on the 4051 would run on
an unexpanded 4052.
- don
Talking of BASIC, I think most of the cartridge
ROMs were BASIC extensions.
The memory management circuitry is a tour de force. Not only does it
handle 16 bit fetches on odd and even bytes, it will decide whether you are
addressing 8 bit wide or 16 bit wide memory and act accordingly. Really
lovely machine.
Yes, the 4052 ROM cartridges are 8 bits wide.
Philip.
Does the 4052 service manual give that level of
detail? The one for
the
4051 gives NO information on the CPU instruction
set other than what was
in
Not much detail, but it explains the addressing modes and lists the
instruction set (although it doesn't tell you what the instructions do).
It explains the CPU architecture, including the microcode format...
the Motorola 6800 brochure that's included in
the manual. Does the 4052
manual give the entry points of the software routines in the system ROM?
Alas, no. Not a thing. I wish it did!
The 4052 and 4054s also have a larger address
range and more memory,
that may also be why their ROMs won't work in the 4051.
In part. As I said earlier, I think "software compatibility" meant BASIC
software.
At the
hardware level, the 4052 is 16 bit. But the microcode implements
an 8 bit processor - the 16 bit operations are used for calculating
addresses only.
I wondered if they were using all 16 bits for data since they could use
the 8 bit 4051 ROMs.
9:59 a.m.
Joe wrote:
>And also that the command for direct access to machine code level was NOT
>proffered to the customers. Some of the field guys would provide it to
>customers that they liked, but it was not policy to do so. Certainly,
>also, some of the more knowledgeable users hacked it.
>
>Unfortunately, I have long since forgotten it :{
> -don
Arrggg! I can't believe you forgot that! That's like saying you found
the holy grail, then lost it!
No, this is more like knowing that a solution exists, and the only problem
left is to find it :). Same thing with the installation of Win95 Upgrade;
it looks for two files, and if it finds them, the installation proceeds
regardless of whether or not Win 3.x is installed or not. After I found out
about this, it only took a couple of hours of deleting and rebooting to find
the necessary files.
9284
days inactive
9285
days old
17 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
donm＠cts.com -
erd＠infinet.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net