28 Jul
2009
28 Jul
'09
12:55 a.m.
Assuming I read you correctly, the mobo appears to have problems.
You should invest in a multimeter. 20$ or so from Radio Shack or even Walmart (probably in
the automotive section). This way you can measure the voltages coming off the p/s pins
accurately. Yes you sometimes need to "load down" a p/s to determine if it is
functioning properly (in other words apply an actual resistance - the circuit it was meant
to power or something equivalent. You can plug it into the mobo and test it by say pushing
a paper clip into the back of the p/s connector for instance.
Sounds like your mobo has issues. You want to start playing with old PCs and stuff - find
some replacement mobos and whatnot. I'm too disorganized at the moment to even offer
to provide one. Others in the group (MARCH) are bound to. Try Bill Degnan. But he's
hours away...
Besides swapping boards, try removing the socketed chips (CPU, etc.) and replacing just
those. Or using that CPU in another computer or board. You have to have something else
that runs an 8088 by now, don't you...
Regards and best of luck.
P.S - get a copy of "Inside the IBM PC", Peter Norton. Has to be PC-era. Has a
picture of a mobo on the cover, but is very green. The earliest addition is not as useful
as the slightly larger more commonly known one (i used to have the *newer* one, but have
only the older, uglier, less useful addition now. Somewhere). It's a M-U-S-T if
you're going to develop a basic understanding of what's going on under duh hood.
You need to get a copy.
--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Joe Giliberti <starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Joe Giliberti <starbase89 at gmail.com>
Subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 7:03 PM
I recently acquired a 5150. It is a
16-64k with two drives and color. I have
not been able to boot it up yet. I cleaned the inside, and
made sure
everything was well connected. When I flick the power on,
the CPU fan goes,
and nothing else. There is power coming out of the
motherboard and drive
connectors, but there is nothing at the ISA slot. No beeps
or anything. I
tested the power supply with a modern CD drive. It worked.
I removed the
motherboard and inspected it for obviously bad components
and scorch marks.
I then opened the power supply. It was pretty clean, except
for the hornet's
nest inside. I haven't yet removed that board, but plan to
soon. The fuse is
intact.
Can anyone suggest what to do next? I have PDFs of the
Hardware Maintaince
manual and the technical service manual.
Thanks
Joe
31 Jul
31 Jul
6:27 p.m.
New subject: OFFLIST (due to being placed on moderated mode) was Re: Problems with
Assuming I read you correctly, the mobo appears to have problems.
I really dislike that abreviation. 'System Planar' I can tolerate, but
not that one...
[...]
Besides swapping boards, try removing the socketed
chips (CPU, etc.)
and replacing just those. Or using that CPU in another computer or
board. You have to have something else that runs an 8088 by now, don't
you... >
Alternatively, you could try something that's gone out of fashion now,
but which IMHO is the _only_ way to repair a computer (or for that matter
anything else). And that is to make measurments, deduce what's working
and what's not, and fix the faulty part.
It's already been suggested you get a multimeter (and I'll go along with
that). A logic probe (if you can still find one) is useful too. More
complex and expensive test gear includes an oscilloscope and a logic
analyser. You probably don;t need those at this point.
Try to get the IBM Personal Computer Techncial Reference Manual. It
contains full scheamtics of the motherboard (and in early editions the
I/O boards, these were later moved to the Options and Adapters TechRefs).
This is how I'd attack this problem. Assuming you are prepared to risk
the motherboard on this PSU (and to be honest it's not much of a risk),
conenct the PSU to the motherboard and power up. Using a voltmeter
(voltage rages of a multimeter), check the power voltages at the PSU
connector on the motherboard. If any are missing/wrong then either the
PSU is faulty (and needs repair), or there's a short somwhere on the
motherboard (maybe a decoupling capacitor).
If the votlages are OK there, check them at the power pins of a few ICs.
If they're msisign there, there's an open-circuit on the motherboard.
Now, using the logic probe, check that the CPU clock is present and that
the thing is not being held in the reset state. Check that the address
and data buses arte active (toggling signals).
-tony
10:36 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Chris M wrote:
You should invest in a multimeter. 20$ or so from
Radio Shack or even
Walmart (probably in the automotive section). This way you can measure
$2.99 at Harborfreight
Good price if there are no critical lethal issues requiring accuracy.
Besides swapping boards, try removing the socketed
chips (CPU, etc.) and
replacing just those. Or using that CPU in another computer or board.
You have to have something else that runs an 8088 by now, don't you...
Regards and best of luck.
P.S - get a copy of "Inside the IBM PC", Peter Norton. Has to be PC-era.
I don't agree
Get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference Manual.
Schematics
Source code for the BIOS
Maybe one of Scott Mueller's R&U
10:44 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On Jul 31, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I find it unfathomable that people would actually use "tools" like
this.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
You should
invest in a multimeter. 20$ or so from Radio Shack or even
Walmart (probably in the automotive section). This way you can
measure
$2.99 at Harborfreight
Good price if there are no critical lethal issues requiring accuracy. 
11:22 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On 31 Jul 2009 at 17:44, Dave McGuire wrote:
And that includes the battery.
It depends--I've got a couple of these that I'll toss into a toolbox
if I'm looking for a quick reading or continuity test. If it gets
dropped or eaten by a dog, no biggie. The Fluke stays home.
If someone needed only to take a few readings and didn't have a meter
of any kind, I'd have no problem with him using one of these,
particularly if he first did a "sanity" check (e.g. check the voltage
on a new carbon-zinc cell to see if it was somewhere around 1.5v and
perhaps checked a known good resistor or two).
On the other hand, if a reliable bench tool was needed for frequent
use, the $3 DVM is clearly not up to the job.
After the Fluke, my next favorite DVM didn't cost a dime--I received
as a promotion with an order. It's a rubber-sheathed, backlit auto-
off large-display DVM that will measure temperature, capacitance and
frequency in addition to the usual A-V-O. I've dropped it more than
a few times, and it still works fine with perfectly acceptable
accuracy.
Personally, I have a bigger problem with people using cheap pliers,
screwdrivers and soldering irons than with cheap DVMs. It's harder
to damage something with a DVM.
--Chuck
$2.99 at
Harborfreight
Good price if there are no critical lethal issues requiring
accuracy.
I find it unfathomable that people would actually use "tools" like
this.
1 Aug
1 Aug
5:57 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
I find it
unfathomable that people would actually use "tools" like
this.
And that includes the battery.
It depends--I've got a couple of these that I'll toss into a toolbox
if I'm looking for a quick reading or continuity test. If it gets
dropped or eaten by a dog, no biggie. The Fluke stays home.
If someone needed only to take a few readings and didn't have a meter
of any kind, I'd have no problem with him using one of these,
particularly if he first did a "sanity" check (e.g. check the voltage
on a new carbon-zinc cell to see if it was somewhere around 1.5v and
perhaps checked a known good resistor or two).
A freind of mine was nearly killed by a cheap DMM. Unknown to him the
range swithc had developped a bad contact and would intermittantly read
far too low. He checked the voltage on some mains wiring he was working
on, it appeared to be dead. He touched it. That's when he found out the
meter was malfunctioning.
Yes, I know you should check on a known live point, then on the circuit
you're working on, then on the known live point again. IIRC, in this case
the meter was intermittant and had given good readings a few minutes
earlier so he assumed it was OK.
The first outcome was he was thrown backwards by the shock. The second
outcome was that he bought a Fluke.
-tony
11 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
I do not. But the meter was not to blame. If you're playing around with dangerous
voltages, you'd better measure at least twice, and cut once. You'd better know
exactly what you're doing before going anywhere near that stuff. I'm afraid to say
the fault was his own. There's nothing saying a good meter wouldn't give an errant
reading one day.
--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 3:45 PM
> A freind of mine was nearly killed by a cheap
DMM.
LOL. And I caught wind of the population of a small
midwestern town
I am glad you find electrocution funny.
-tony
2:08 a.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
actually use "tools" like
incidentally that gets drained crackly dry in all of about 12 minutes upon powering up.
Same w/their digital calipers.
> $2.99 at
Harborfreight
> Good price if there are no critical lethal issues
requiring
accuracy.
I find it unfathomable that people would this.
And that includes the battery. It depends--I've got a couple of these that
I'll toss into
a toolbox
if I'm looking for a quick reading or continuity
test. If it gets
dropped or eaten by a dog, no biggie.
Ick. That pooch you have be real scary.
The Fluke stays
home.
WONDERFUL. Where the dog has free access!
If someone needed only to take a few readings and
didn't
have a meter
of any kind, I'd have no problem with him using one of
these,
I do. I most certainly do. You can get a decent meter for 20$.
On the other hand, if a reliable bench tool was needed
for
frequent
use, the $3 DVM is clearly not up to the job.
The one I bought, to my eternal shame, wasn't up to much at all. It flaked out in
other ways, besides eating batteries.
After the Fluke, my next favorite DVM didn't cost
a dime--I
received
as a promotion with an order. It's a rubber-sheathed,
backlit auto-
off large-display DVM that will measure temperature,
capacitance and
frequency in addition to the usual A-V-O. I've
dropped it more than
a few times, and it still works fine with perfectly
acceptable
accuracy.
There's no moving parts. No reason it shouldn't. I drop my Nextel each and every
day. Sit on it. Still works.
Truth is I had a ball w/the old style unit I use to use, yer know, with the push buttons.
Was real scared of that style of meter until I realized how easy it was to *program*. I
actually liked having to think a bit before using it, sort of as a primer. Until the day I
done just though wrong and mixed up the setting. Oi. Only payed 15$ for it too. It worked
exceptionally well.
Personally, I have a bigger problem with people using
cheap
pliers,
screwdrivers and soldering irons than with cheap
DVMs. It's harder
to damage something with a DVM.
The point is there happens to be impressionable youth listening in on this conversation.
They may actually go out and attempt what some are advocating!
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On 1 Aug 2009 at 18:08, Chris M wrote:
Ick. That pooch you have be real scary.
Actually, he's a sweetheart, a Golden Retreiver. But he's a big boy
(70 lean pounds with more growing to do) and only 13 months old.
He'll chew on anything if he likes the look of it. The latest was an
IDE-CF adapter completely destroyed. It's just the nature of young
dogs.
WONDERFUL. Where the dog has free access!
Ah, but the dog doesn't--my shop has a self-closing fire door with a
lock on it. He doesn't go there and he knows it. Maybe when he's
about 4, but not now.
I do. I most certainly do. You can get a decent meter
for 20$.
Most probably made in China by some outfit that also turns out all
manner of unrelated items.
Okay, I've got one of the HF ones in front of me. Cen-Tech 7
function digital multimeter; your basic 3 1/2 digit model. Bright
yello case, probes have shrouded plugs; no exposed metal--the two
screws holding the case together in the rear are recessed about half
a cm. I'd prefer tha the holes be plugged or covered, but a little
silicone putty will take care of that. Opening it up, very basic;
single IC embedded in an epoxy blob; various resistors (some SMT 5%,
others 1%. A 500 ma fuse (the normal current readings max out at 199
ma). What looks to be a length of 14 AWG copper wire serving as the
10A shunt. There's a spring extending from the PCB that contacts a
small foil shield attached to the inside of the rear case half. Said
case is ABS.
The battery is a "Li Feng Heavy Duty" and came with the meter,
pruchased about 9 months ago for $2.99..
So, is this a terrible meter? No, it's pretty accurate, at least
doing an A-B comparison using my bench sources. In fact, it's
probably no worse than any of the Radio Shack "Micronta" DMMs that
cost 5-10 times as much and probably better than the RS DMMs offered
20 years ago.
As a diagnostic tool, it'll probably tell me with little danger that
a 5150 has +5, +12, -12 and -5 voltages coming out of the power
supply with sufficient accuracy.
And if Marley gets his chompers on it, I won't get too upset.
--Chuck
5:10 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Most probably made in China by some outfit that also
turns
out all
manner of unrelated items.
it's no secret that many thing (maybe all?) are made in PROC these days. But they can
vary widely in quality. My unit was a piece of junk. Same w/their machine tools (I was
told 10 years ago by an old machinist the quality be getting better...I'd swear on a
bible that if I spoke to the same dude today he'd say exactly the same thing - but you
run your chances when you buy one. Sorry, there's just no argument there. Granted a
few of the smaller garden variety chinese lathes _can_ sometimes represent a bargain (I
hesitate to say *value*). I don't hate them, nor the Chinese people of course, you
just have to be real careful. What I do hate though is Chinese human rights violations.
And the loss of our manufacturing sector. But I digress.
And if Marley gets his chompers on it, I won't get
too
upset.
Hopefully Marley won't get lead poisoning...
3 Aug
3 Aug
7:05 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
Most probably
made in China by some outfit that also turns
out all
manner of unrelated items.
it's no secret that many thing (maybe all?) are made in PROC these
days. But they can vary widely in quality. My unit was a piece of junk.
Same w/their machine tools (I was told 10 years ago by an old machinist From articles in the UK Model Engineering magazines, it
appears that the
Chinese lathes are OK _if you buy them as a starting point_. In
other
words when you get one, you need to strip it down, check alignment,
possibly ture up some parts and reassemble it (correctly). At least one
importer of such machines in the UK offers them at 2 prices -- as they
come from China or (for more money, of course) after they've done some
work on them
the quality be getting better...I'd swear on a
bible that if I spoke to
the same dude today he'd say exactly the same thing - but you run your
chances when you buy one. Sorry, there's just no argument there. Granted
a few of the smaller garden variety chinese lathes _can_ sometimes
But is it any suprise I didn't buy such a machine tool :-)
represent a bargain (I hesitate to say *value*). I
don't hate them, nor
the Chinese people of course, you just have to be real careful. What I
do hate though is Chinese human rights violations. And the loss of our
manufacturing sector. But I digress.
Agreed.
-tony
2 Aug
2 Aug
7:41 p.m.
New subject: Crappy meters (Was: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
As a diagnostic tool, it'll probably tell me with
little danger that
a 5150 has +5, +12, -12 and -5 voltages coming out of the power
supply with sufficient accuracy.
And if Marley gets his chompers on it, I won't get too upset.
I would worry about what he might swallow, and keep him well supplied with
safer chew toys. Fortunately, when Mac was that age, he was much more
interested in my shoes than tools.
They are one of the very few tools that I own that I will let neighbors,
or even cow-orkers, borrow.
But, I would use one of my Tripplett's (sp?) instead if I were testing
mains wiring.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8:17 p.m.
New subject: Crappy meters (Was: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On 2 Aug 2009 at 11:41, Fred Cisin wrote:
I would worry about what he might swallow, and keep
him well supplied
with safer chew toys. Fortunately, when Mac was that age, he was much
more interested in my shoes than tools.
He's got a milk-crate full of them, but something new and shiny gets
him interested. Fortunately, he mostly likes to destroy things,
rather than swallow them. When he gets tired, he can always chew on
Molly, his Black Lab companion. All in good fun.
--Chuck
7:50 p.m.
New subject: Crappy meters (Was: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Chris M wrote:
incidentally that gets drained crackly dry in all of
about 12 minutes
upon powering up.
I have had several of the Centech's get reasonable battery life.
Same w/their digital calipers.
a tipoff there is the inclusion of a spare battery
I do. I most certainly do. You can get a decent meter
for 20$.
If somebody has NO electronics tools, even $20 might seem like an
investment. $3 lets them destroy a few while they learn what to look for
in a REAL meter.
> Personally, I have a bigger problem with people
using cheap pliers,
> screwdrivers and soldering irons than with cheap DVMs. It's harder to
> damage something with a DVM.
and substantially less prone to injury
The point is there happens to be impressionable youth
listening in on
this conversation. They may actually go out and attempt what some are
advocating!
Will they REALLY attempt what the old farts talk about?
Maybe there is hope, after all.
2 Aug
2 Aug
2:20 a.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
The 2nd and 4th suggestions are good ones. The first one isn't likely to lead to any
fault finding skills in the immediate. The 3rd one is absolutely goofy!! LOL LOL. What
possible help would the bios sources provide for someone trying to troubleshoot a mobo?
The point is _most_ of us aren't going to plumb the depths as you or someone like
Chuck did in the old days. When your paycheck depends on it, you'll go the extra mile
(and this in itself necessitates a lot of skill and/or formal training. And other
likeminded individuals to engage in brainstorming sessions). I bought the tech ref for the
tandy 2000 as soon as I could, but all it helped me with in the first 6 months was to
determine the value of a capacitor that self immolated in the p/s. The average person is
not going to learn how to troubleshoot a uP board by reading the tech refs from the getgo,
IMHO. I suggested the Sam's Photofact things offlist (can you say test points?).
Hopefully as good would be some of the texts that taught troubleshooting as a certificate
course.
P.S - get a
copy of "Inside the IBM PC", Peter Norton.
Has to be PC-era.
I don't agree
Get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference Manual.
Schematics
Source code for the BIOS
Maybe one of Scott Mueller's R&U
7:24 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
> Get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference
Manual.
> Schematics
> Source code for the BIOS
> Maybe one of Scott Mueller's R&U
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Chris M wrote:
The 2nd and 4th suggestions are good ones.
Sorry, I should have used more than an indent to indicate inclusion.
There are NOT 4 suggestions, there are TWO.
The IBM PC Technical Reference Manual INCLUDES schematics and source code
for the BIOS.
BTW, V2.02 had a lot of improvements over V1.0, but when the PS/2 (no, not
the Sony) came along, IBM stopped putting a lot of the good stuff in the
Tech Ref.
The first one isn't likely
to lead to any fault finding skills in the immediate. The 3rd one is
absolutely goofy!! LOL LOL. What possible help would the bios sources
provide for someone trying to troubleshoot a mobo?
Sure helped me a lot. Once I had my 5150, soon thereafter I started trying
to build XTs by buying Taiwan bare motherboards (mostly infringinf copies
of IBM's) and soldering Augat sockets to them. Since that was also to
improve my ability to solder, they did sometimes need troubleshooting.
By looking at the boot code in the BIOS, I was able to determine how far
it was getting in the boot process, and therefore some hints of what to
look at. When P.O.S.T. cards came out, that made that much easier.
BTW, "mobo"??? I had an uncle who worked at IBM. I don't particularly
rely on anything he said about PCs, but I once asked him WHY IBM would NOT
use the term "motherboard". He claimed that it was because some exec had
seen on TV a Black Panther speech from Merritt College, and was very upset
by the frequent use of "MOTHER-[bleep]", often shortened to just
"MOTHER".
He might not even have known what was [bleep]ed.
BTW, when the 5150 first came out, I started in on twenty years of
teaching programming at Merritt College.
The point is _most_ of us aren't going to plumb
the depths as you or
someone like Chuck did in the old days.
. . . when we walked 10 miles through the snow uphill, both ways, . . .
in brainstorming sessions). I bought the tech ref for
the tandy 2000 as
soon as I could, but all it helped me with in the first 6 months was to
determine the value of a capacitor that self immolated in the p/s. The
average person is not going to learn how to troubleshoot a uP board by
reading the tech refs from the getgo, IMHO. I suggested the Sam's
Photofact things offlist (can you say test points?). Hopefully as good
would be some of the texts that taught troubleshooting as a certificate
course.
OK
In my day, there weren't any good PC troubleshooting guides.
The IBM Hardware Reference guide was just a board swapping text!
In those days, the Tech Ref was the ONLY reference available.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:49 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Uh, I actually doubt either of you are old enough to remember all that?
Sure helped me a lot. Once I had my 5150, soon
thereafter I
started trying
to build XTs by buying Taiwan bare motherboards (mostly
infringinf copies
of IBM's) and soldering Augat sockets to them. Since
that was also to
improve my ability to solder, they did sometimes need
troubleshooting.
By looking at the boot code in the BIOS, I was able to
determine how far
it was getting in the boot process, and therefore some
hints of what to
look at. When P.O.S.T. cards came out, that made that
much easier.
I'm beginning to think peeps like you, Chuckster, Allison,..., should have been
writing books back then. I happen to like some of Peter Norton's stuff, sure helped me
when there was little else that would. You also have to understand that there was also a
lot of misinformation.
We realize that people like you were pioneers. Most of us just don't have the same
talents. I couldn't make heads or tails of assembly language (started poking around
when someone gave me MASM for the T2K), and through up my hands. Bought some expensive
(for then) books. No go. Found the right text (thank God for good, down to earth authors),
and 2 weeks later I could actually write some code.
Don't misunderstand me. What you're talking about is very interesting. The
average jamoke probably won't have the patience to sort through bios code. Not from
the getgo anyway. I myself am fascinated by the notion of code being tuned for specific
hardware these days. In an earlier case Andrew Tanenbaum mentions having to account for
temperature variations in some chips in his Minix text (not in front of me). I still
haven't figured out what hardware he's talking about. The 8088 platform wasn't
that unstable, was it???
BTW, "mobo"???
Actually the "mobo" in the 5150 isn't one at all technically. It's a
main logic board. A motherboard is supposed to be synonymous w/a passive backplane. But
I'll bet that term likely died by the time the 5150 was released.
BTW, when the 5150 first came out, I started in on
twenty
years of
teaching programming at Merritt College.
When I finally took assembler as a community college course, I'm sad to say I learned
virtually nothing about programming. Despite the fact that the guy worked in industry (he
was almost 60 at that point) he didn't know what the Trap flag was for! Maybe he
forgot (kind of hard to wouldn't you say?). I kept my mouth shut. There are always
tips that can be gleaned from old hands though. Learned a few things, but nothing about
writing code specifically. I do suppose that we should be grateful that anyone teaches
assembler at all anymore.
The point is
_most_ of us aren't going to plumb
the depths as you or
someone like Chuck did in the old days.
. . . when we walked 10 miles through the snow uphill, both
ways, . . . OK
In my day, there weren't any good PC troubleshooting
guides.
The IBM Hardware Reference guide was just a board swapping
text!
In those days, the Tech Ref was the ONLY reference
available.
...and a semester later, it was stated that a variable is basically synonymous
w/"memory location", in a manner of speaking. I certainly knew what a variable
was, far earlier on hacked into games to bump up my stats so I could really kick some..uh.
But if I were asked to explain it quite that way, I think I would have had a hard time.
Most people that like this stuff are more doers then talkers (or teachers). I am sometimes
surprised at my ability to work through a problem that people sometimes w/far more
experience have trouble doing. But explaining it is another matter. Probably why there are
so few good books out there....
3 Aug
3 Aug
3:58 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On 2 Aug 2009 at 14:49, Chris M wrote:
I'm beginning to think peeps like you, Chuckster,
Allison,..., should
have been writing books back then.
I edited a number for Osborne McGraw-Hill, but never wanted to write
one--too much work compared with other ways of making money. Simply
spending a bit of time after supper every day with a manuscript and a
pencil was worth a couple of thousand every month. Besides, some of
us wrote software--so much more fun than a book.
The ironic thing was that many "authors" simply spent their time
picking other people's knowledge--they didn't know all that much
about the subject themselves. Some truly gargantuan egos involved,
too. And those books with a Major Personality on the cover were
often not even proofed by the Major Personality, and scarcely
anything more than a foreword penned by them.
--Chuck
4 Aug
4 Aug
12:56 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
At 09:58 AM 8/3/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Some truly gargantuan egos involved,
too. And those books with a Major Personality on the cover were
often not even proofed by the Major Personality, and scarcely
anything more than a foreword penned by them.
Oh, Dvorak you mean.
- John
10:19 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
At 09:58 AM 8/3/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Some truly gargantuan egos involved,
>too. And those books with a Major Personality on the cover were
>often not even proofed by the Major Personality, and scarcely
>anything more than a foreword penned by them.
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, John Foust
wrote:
Oh, Dvorak you mean.
Does he have his shirtsleeves rolled up on the cover?
Did he do a Whisky ad?
6 Aug
6 Aug
3:31 a.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
At 04:19 PM 8/4/2009, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, John Foust wrote:
Oh, I still curse the name Norton on a weekly basis.
- John
Oh, Dvorak you mean.
Does he have his shirtsleeves rolled up on the cover?
Did he do a Whisky ad?
8 Aug
8 Aug
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
his books were good. Even the more recent ones. Don't knock the whole man. And Norton
Utilities did a reasonably good job of ferreting out windows problems. Now now. The
youngins need to learn good stuff somehow. Lots of folk can appreciate his books at least
(even if he didn't write them).
--- On Wed, 8/5/09, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
Oh, I still curse the name Norton on a weekly basis.
- John
4 Aug
4 Aug
10:40 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
John Foust wrote:
At 09:58 AM 8/3/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Or Peter Norton?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
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Some truly gargantuan egos involved,
too. And those books with a Major Personality on the cover were
often not even proofed by the Major Personality, and scarcely
anything more than a foreword penned by them.
Oh, Dvorak you mean.
2 Aug
2 Aug
8:55 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
The 2nd and 4th suggestions are good ones. The first one isn't likely
to lead to any fault finding skills in the immediate. The 3rd one is
Err, the IBM< Technical Reference (the 'first one') is the manual that
contains the official motherboard schematics.
P.S - get
a copy of "Inside the IBM PC", Peter Norton.
Has to be PC-era.
I don't agree
Get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference Manual.
Schematics
Source code for the BIOS
Maybe one of Scott Mueller's R&U absolutely goofy!! LOL LOL. What possible help would
the bios sources
provide for someone trying to troubleshoot a mobo?
A Heck of a lot, actually. If the processor is running, you then hook a
logic analyser to the address bus to see _what_ it's running. Now, if the
early self-tests fail, you can then follow the execution of said test
routines with the logic analyser, look up the appropraite bits of the
BIOS source to find what has failed. Done it myself several times
The point is _most_ of us aren't going to plumb
the depths as you or
someone like Chuck did in the old days. When your paycheck depends on
it, you'll go the extra mile (and this in itself necessitates a lot of
FWIW, I've never been paid to fix anything, but I routinely do things
like this.
skill and/or formal training. And other likeminded
individuals to engage
And I've never had any formal training in electronics or troubleshooting.
in brainstorming sessions). I bought the tech ref for
the tandy 2000 as
soon as I could, but all it helped me with in the first 6 months was to
determine the value of a capacitor that self immolated in the p/s. The
average person is not going to learn how to troubleshoot a uP board by
reading the tech refs from the getgo, IMHO. I suggested the Sam's
And I suppose the 'average person' is not going to figure out how to get
a PDP11 going armed with just the schematics (printset). But that's
exactly what I did. The obvious conclusion is that I am not an average
person.
Photofact things offlist (can you say test points?).
Hopefully as good
would be some of the texts that taught troubleshooting as a certificate
course.
I've not seen the Photfacts for the PC, but I have a SAMs manual on
repairing the Commodore 1541. It's OK as far as it goes (which is a lot
further than most similar books...), but sometime you're going to get a
fault which is not really covered, and then you have to use the
schematics, use test gear, and think about it. Which you might as well do
for any fault.
-tony
9:31 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Tony Duell wrote:
"formal training"?
What little I know about electronics and assembly language was acquired
without any formal training. (circuit diagrams and source code were
essential)
skill and/or
formal training. And other likeminded individuals to engage
And I've never had
any formal training in electronics or troubleshooting. exactly what I did. The obvious conclusion is that I
am not an average
person.
face it, when it comes to any measure of central tendency, . . .
when it comes to standard deviation, we ARE the deviants.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:05 p.m.
New subject: Problems with IBM 5150 Power
Tony I won't do a line item response, but the basic idea was to help the individual
get the thing running. I won't say 9 out of 10 people won't utilize the bios to
troubleshoot a mlb, but 99 out of 100. Sure if you have a logic analyzer, or some means to
read off of the address pins, it's not at all a bad idea. But even those w/the basic
ability won't go that route. Oi keep it simple.
This also assumes the bios is adequately "mapped out" from the getgo. Trying to
establish break points in the code would bloody take forever if you were to ask me.
It's really not a straitforward way of
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